129 réponses à ce sujet

[Tom Adama]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Ummm..... in ME1 in order to get that bonus skill you had to unlock it with another character. In ME2 it's the same thing except you have to beat the game once to do it.

You dont understand. In Mass 1, if you didnt have a electronics/decryption trained squadmate with you (or if you were trained), some lockers/crates/doors could NOT be opened. It would say," electronics skill too low."

In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

[Tom Adama]

Schneidend wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...

Yuuuup. You find better guns in ME1, I dont give 2 craps about looks; the damn guns had different stats! AND I could customize them to suit the situation. Your character actually improved in both equipment and stats in Mass 1, where's in Mass 2 all you got was 2 guns that had 10% damage bonus's on research upgrades.

And that didn't matter because enemies SCALE to your level in the game.

Better guns in ME1? Sorry, but nothing is more powerful than the Widow and the Revenant.

Even without those specialization weapons, the Vindicator, Geth Pulse Rifle, Scimitar, Tempest, Viper and Hand Cannon are huge improvements in their respective classifications. They make the gun actually function differently than the base weapon, as well. And research upgrades did other things besides just damage, such as improving Sniper rifle headshot damage, assault rifle accuracy, and giving the heavy pistol critical hits. How much more RPG can you get than random crits?

As to the OP, well, you're hilarious. Infiltrator is easily one of the most powerful classes in the game on any difficulty. Invisibility, sniper scope time dilation, huge damage bonuses (even before your armor bonuses), and access to the Widow to top it all off. If you can't excel with this class, you're in trouble.

Jigero wrote...

Soilders have about zero defensive abilities...

Hardened Adrenaline Rush is easily the second or third best defensive ability in the entire game right behind Tactical Cloak and Tech Armor.

...Better guns STATS wise. Ie the HWMX X pistol was better than the Volkov III etc. AND you could mod your guns to be customized to your playstyle. My gun could be modded to use tungsten, radioactive, shredder, cryo, inferno, hammerhead... so if I fought enemy X, I had the ability to use any ammo type for any enemy.

Yes, the combat was slowed down when you had to do this, but they could have at least kept the mods: frictionless material, scram rails, heat sink upgrades etc. 

[Inarai]

Tom Adama wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Ummm..... in ME1 in order to get that bonus skill you had to unlock it with another character. In ME2 it's the same thing except you have to beat the game once to do it.

You dont understand. In Mass 1, if you didnt have a electronics/decryption trained squadmate with you (or if you were trained), some lockers/crates/doors could NOT be opened. It would say," electronics skill too low."

In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

And accordingly, there's no such thing as a lower-combat class in ME2, just different approaches to combat.  If you're trying to approach combat as an Infiltrator in the same way you would as a Soldier (Or, for added hilarity, a Vanguard), I think we've found your issue.

[Tom Adama]

Inarai wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Ummm..... in ME1 in order to get that bonus skill you had to unlock it with another character. In ME2 it's the same thing except you have to beat the game once to do it.

You dont understand. In Mass 1, if you didnt have a electronics/decryption trained squadmate with you (or if you were trained), some lockers/crates/doors could NOT be opened. It would say," electronics skill too low."

In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

And accordingly, there's no such thing as a lower-combat class in ME2, just different approaches to combat.  If you're trying to approach combat as an Infiltrator in the same way you would as a Soldier (Or, for added hilarity, a Vanguard), I think we've found your issue.

So why didnt I have this problem in the first game? My character was OWNING in Mass 1... oh wait I remember why, I had more/better combat abilities that were removed in this game.

I could mod my guns AND armor to make up for my weakness's in whatever way I saw fitting.

[Schneidend]

Tom Adama wrote...


In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

Except that those "lower combat" classes can stun sub-bosses with Singularities, annihilate barriers, shields, and armor with singular power hits, throw enemies off of ledges, turn a Geth Prime into your permanent best friend, and tank Harbinger with a sphere of light.

This isn't ME1, and thank god, because now ALL of the classes are awesome killing machines, instead of only half of them.

[Inarai]

Tom Adama wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Ummm..... in ME1 in order to get that bonus skill you had to unlock it with another character. In ME2 it's the same thing except you have to beat the game once to do it.

You dont understand. In Mass 1, if you didnt have a electronics/decryption trained squadmate with you (or if you were trained), some lockers/crates/doors could NOT be opened. It would say," electronics skill too low."

In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

And accordingly, there's no such thing as a lower-combat class in ME2, just different approaches to combat.  If you're trying to approach combat as an Infiltrator in the same way you would as a Soldier (Or, for added hilarity, a Vanguard), I think we've found your issue.

So why didnt I have this problem in the first game? My character was OWNING in Mass 1... oh wait I remember why, I had more/better combat abilities that were removed in this game.

I could mod my guns AND armor to make up for my weakness's in whatever way I saw fitting.

Moving something like the new armour system over to weapons would be utterly fantastic.  And a few of the playstyles have changed, you need to adapt.

And in  ME2, you have that modification available for armour.  For example, the storm speed legs and melee strength shoulders?  Not something I'd use on most classes, not much point.  They are NEVER, EVER coming off any Vanguard I run.  Ever.  Well, I might use the Assymetric Defense Layer if I expect to need that more, but, in general?  And at least choices of gear here have IMPACT.

Modifié par Inarai, 12 février 2010 - 01:32 .

[Panzer Gold]

Tom Adama wrote...
Better guns STATS wise. Ie the HWMX X pistol was better than the Volkov
III etc. AND you could mod your guns to be customized to your playstyle.
My gun could be modded to use tungsten, radioactive, shredder, cryo,
inferno, hammerhead... so if I fought enemy X, I had the ability to use
any ammo type for any enemy.

Yes, the combat was slowed down when
you had to do this, but they could have at least kept the mods:
frictionless material, scram rails, heat sink upgrades etc.

So why didnt I have this problem in the first game? My character was OWNING in Mass 1... oh wait I remember why, I had more/better combat abilities that were removed in this game.

I could mod my guns AND armor to make up for my weakness's in whatever way I saw fitting.

So, basically you're upset that they canned the crappy and tedious loot system that was 99% junk and 1% overpowered gear, and you can't make an overpowered solo character that can trivialize the entire game without needing to rely on your team mates? Okie dokie...

[EternalWolfe]

Tom Adama wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Ummm..... in ME1 in order to get that bonus skill you had to unlock it with another character. In ME2 it's the same thing except you have to beat the game once to do it.

You dont understand. In Mass 1, if you didnt have a electronics/decryption trained squadmate with you (or if you were trained), some lockers/crates/doors could NOT be opened. It would say," electronics skill too low."

In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

serously, IMO, if you have to give a 'lower combat class' something like exclusive access to loot, or anything like that,  to get people to play it or take someone of that class with them, then you need to rethink your gamebuilding strategy.  Games are supposed to be fun.  If you have to force someone to take or be a class to get something exclusive to that class that isn't something completly of born of playstyle, then you have failed at making that class.

And no, 'exclusive access to loot' is not a playstyle.

That said, all classes have a unique playstyle to them.  And in both games, even the 'lower combat classes' as you call them, were just as useful to me as a soldier.  If they took away the need for Decryption and Electronics to open stuff in ME1, the engineer would still get Sabotage and Overload, which were great powers when used properly.

[Tom Adama]

Schneidend wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...


In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

Except that those "lower combat" classes can stun sub-bosses with Singularities, annihilate barriers, shields, and armor with singular power hits, throw enemies off of ledges, turn a Geth Prime into your permanent best friend, and tank Harbinger with a sphere of light.

This isn't ME1, and thank god, because now ALL of the classes are awesome killing machines, instead of only half of them.

Yes, all the characters are about equal in combat skills. But the passive and defensive abilities like shield boost, unity, barrier etc. have all been scrubbed.

This is how combat is (for infiltrator) in Mass 2; oh, this is an organic, pull out my heavy pistol with shredder rounds. Oh, they have armor, use incendiary tech or warp then shoot with only pistol or sniper. Oh, they have shields, use disruptor ammo on my SMG then finish them with my pistol or sniper.
 
I changed guns 10,000 times during the game. In the first one, I cleared the whole thing with 2 modded weapons; one for long range (zoomable sniper rifle) the other for short range (pistol). You can't do that in this game...

Modifié par Tom Adama, 12 février 2010 - 01:42 .

[Jigero]

Schneidend wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...

Yuuuup. You find better guns in ME1, I dont give 2 craps about looks; the damn guns had different stats! AND I could customize them to suit the situation. Your character actually improved in both equipment and stats in Mass 1, where's in Mass 2 all you got was 2 guns that had 10% damage bonus's on research upgrades.

And that didn't matter because enemies SCALE to your level in the game.

Better guns in ME1? Sorry, but nothing is more powerful than the Widow and the Revenant.

Even without those specialization weapons, the Vindicator, Geth Pulse Rifle, Scimitar, Tempest, Viper and Hand Cannon are huge improvements in their respective classifications. They make the gun actually function differently than the base weapon, as well. And research upgrades did other things besides just damage, such as improving Sniper rifle headshot damage, assault rifle accuracy, and giving the heavy pistol critical hits. How much more RPG can you get than random crits?

As to the OP, well, you're hilarious. Infiltrator is easily one of the most powerful classes in the game on any difficulty. Invisibility, sniper scope time dilation, huge damage bonuses (even before your armor bonuses), and access to the Widow to top it all off. If you can't excel with this class, you're in trouble.

Jigero wrote...

Soilders have about zero defensive abilities...

Hardened Adrenaline Rush is easily the second or third best defensive ability in the entire game right behind Tactical Cloak and Tech Armor.

Sorry your a an idiot if you thing Harden adrenaline rush is "defensive", it only last long enough to take like one or two shots. I never used it for it;s Defensive Abilities, mostly for it's ability to one shot stuff ability

[Tom Adama]

EternalWolfe wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Ummm..... in ME1 in order to get that bonus skill you had to unlock it with another character. In ME2 it's the same thing except you have to beat the game once to do it.

You dont understand. In Mass 1, if you didnt have a electronics/decryption trained squadmate with you (or if you were trained), some lockers/crates/doors could NOT be opened. It would say," electronics skill too low."

In this game, ANY class could hack a door or open a locker. Thus my point, being a lower combat class is useless unless you want a larger challenge in the combat aspect.

serously, IMO, if you have to give a 'lower combat class' something like exclusive access to loot, or anything like that,  to get people to play it or take someone of that class with them, then you need to rethink your gamebuilding strategy.  Games are supposed to be fun.  If you have to force someone to take or be a class to get something exclusive to that class that isn't something completly of born of playstyle, then you have failed at making that class.

And no, 'exclusive access to loot' is not a playstyle.

That said, all classes have a unique playstyle to them.  And in both games, even the 'lower combat classes' as you call them, were just as useful to me as a soldier.  If they took away the need for Decryption and Electronics to open stuff in ME1, the engineer would still get Sabotage and Overload, which were great powers when used properly.

NO! You just need to bring a squadmember that FILLS IN YOUR WEAKNESS'S! I was a Infiltrator in ME1, I used Wrex and Liara to compensate for my weakness in combat.

I didnt bring Tali or Kaiden or Garrus much because I could open locked crates myself and could use the sniper rifle. My short range combat was weak so I brougt Wrex in to compensate and brought Liara to create space with her biotics if I was in trouble.

My goodness... didn't you realize that when you played ME1?

[Dual Dahaka]

It bores me using 2 weapons to finish ME1, a pistol and a shotgun as a vanguard, I don't want that anymore, thank you. I'm happy with using everything in my disposal, not just in weapons but with my AI teammates (never like that thing in ME1, that you have to bring a specific character to open things). ME2 is a better experience in my opinion.

[Tleining]

so what is stopping you from using Grunt and Jack to do the same in ME2?

[Schneidend]

Tom Adama wrote...

I changed guns 10,000 times during the
game. In the first one, I cleared the whole thing with 2 modded
weapons; one for long range (zoomable sniper rifle) the other for short
range (pistol). You can't do that in this game...

My Infiltrator's doing just fine only using SMG's, snipers, and the occasional stealthed melee kill, thanks much.

Jigero wrote...

Sorry your a an idiot if you thing Harden adrenaline rush is "defensive", it only last long enough to take like one or two shots. I never used it for it;s Defensive Abilities, mostly for it's ability to one shot stuff ability

That's the beauty of it. It's both defenseive and offensive. You can use it for running away, getting to cover, easier headshots, unloading your LMG into a scion's hump, standing up from cover in the middle of collector laser crossfire to shotgun Harbinger in the face while taking next to zero damage from all the assassin beams trained on you.

[Soruyao]

RAR! I agree op! classes are underpowered! Buff classes now bioware!

[ChaoticBroth]

This thread is silly. Why?



Each of the individual classes have different playstyles. Soldiers just waltz in there, guns blazing, but lack CC. Vanguards operate with spike damage, Sentinels specialize in either defense or versatility. Adepts are amazing at CC, Infiltrators are good for picking off enemies one by one, and Engineers are... Well, I haven't played an Engineer, so I can't really comment on that.



If anything, this game teaches you how to play a specialized role, and adjust your team around it. In ME1, thanks to bonus talents, you could just add talents to your character to make yourself a one-man team. Here, I've found myself needing to coordinate my team and where I Charge on my Insanity Vanguard. A big, and considerably better change.

[Tom Adama]

Tleining wrote...

so what is stopping you from using Grunt and Jack to do the same in ME2?

Why? So I can use concussive shot and that shockwave biotic power...

Wrex had throw, barrier,  shotguns (carnage), AR (Overkill), Shield boost, Barrier, Stasis, Fitness, Warp and krogan battlemastery.

Liara had singularity, throw, lift, warp, barrier, stasis, electronics (overload). All of which had multiple effects depending on the level it was progressed to.

I had OPTIONS. I could use a plethora of tactics to overcome the enemy, not just 2 talents with 4 levels of mastery and no subvariations.

This game used shallow action rpg elements only, I dare anyone to say otherwise. The talents only applied to 2 powers in combat which were unique to each squadmate. IE: Samara had throw, Jack did not nor did Miranda or Jacob...

...so basically Im choosing squadmates on what moves they could do, not on the fact they were biotics?

Modifié par Tom Adama, 12 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[Tom Adama]

ChaoticBroth wrote...

This thread is silly. Why?

Each of the individual classes have different playstyles. Soldiers just waltz in there, guns blazing, but lack CC. Vanguards operate with spike damage, Sentinels specialize in either defense or versatility. Adepts are amazing at CC, Infiltrators are good for picking off enemies one by one, and Engineers are... Well, I haven't played an Engineer, so I can't really comment on that.

If anything, this game teaches you how to play a specialized role, and adjust your team around it. In ME1, thanks to bonus talents, you could just add talents to your character to make yourself a one-man team. Here, I've found myself needing to coordinate my team and where I Charge on my Insanity Vanguard. A big, and considerably better change.

Im sorry but I found it to be quite the opposite. ME1 was more tactical in team selection, ME2 was universal. Nobody was specialized as per situation or player class, they were only different in moves list.

[Soruyao]

Tom Adama wrote...

Why? So I can use concussive shot and that shockwave biotic power...

Wrex had throw, barrier,  shotguns (carnage), AR (Overkill), Shield boost, Barrier, Stasis, Fitness, Warp and krogan battlemastery.

Liara had singularity, throw, lift, warp, barrier, stasis, electronics (overload). All of which had multiple effects depending on the level it was progressed to.

I had OPTIONS. I could use a pletheura of tactics to overcome the enemy, not just 2 talents with 4 levels of mastery and no subvariations.

This game used shallow action rpg elements only, I dare anyone to say otherwise. The talents only applied to 2 powers in combat which were unique to each squadmate. IE: Samara had throw, Jack did not nor did Miranda or Jacob...

...so basically Im choosing squadmates on what moves they could do, not on the fact they were biotics?

It's plethora btw. 

[Tom Adama]

Soruyao wrote...

Tom Adama wrote...

Why? So I can use concussive shot and that shockwave biotic power...

Wrex had throw, barrier,  shotguns (carnage), AR (Overkill), Shield boost, Barrier, Stasis, Fitness, Warp and krogan battlemastery.

Liara had singularity, throw, lift, warp, barrier, stasis, electronics (overload). All of which had multiple effects depending on the level it was progressed to.

I had OPTIONS. I could use a pletheura of tactics to overcome the enemy, not just 2 talents with 4 levels of mastery and no subvariations.

This game used shallow action rpg elements only, I dare anyone to say otherwise. The talents only applied to 2 powers in combat which were unique to each squadmate. IE: Samara had throw, Jack did not nor did Miranda or Jacob...

...so basically Im choosing squadmates on what moves they could do, not on the fact they were biotics?

It's plethora btw. 

Corrected! Thank you!

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Personally I'm very happy with the way classes are presented in ME2. In ME1 there were 3 classes because with bonus skills you could change hybrid class into 'pure' class with only loss of unwanted skills.



Add singularity to vanguard and you become almost full adept at the expense of stasis and 14% lower cooldown.

Add AI hacking to infiltrator and you become almost full engineer without medicine and 14% lower cooldown.

Add AI hacking or singularity to sentinel and you become engineer without damping and 4% lower cooldown or adept without warp.



There's not much difference between hybrids and full classes, only missing 2 skills.



In ME2 every class get unique power which makes them all attractive.

[EternalWolfe]

Tom Adama wrote...

NO! You just need to bring a squadmember that FILLS IN YOUR WEAKNESS'S! I was a Infiltrator in ME1, I used Wrex and Liara to compensate for my weakness in combat.

I didnt bring Tali or Kaiden or Garrus much because I could open locked crates myself and could use the sniper rifle. My short range combat was weak so I brougt Wrex in to compensate and brought Liara to create space with her biotics if I was in trouble.

My goodness... didn't you realize that when you played ME1?

What in the world are you jabbering about?

First of all, I fail to see your point.  I've played the game several times with multiple builds/squads.  How about an Engineer, Tali, and Kaiden on Insanity?  Did it just fine, no problem.  Wasn't any harder then Soldier, Ashely, and Wrex.  Where is this 'weakness' your talking about?  So my point about 'lower combat classes' being useful within a party even without the ability to hack crates stands.  There is a reason to use them, because they are useful.  Just because you feel the need to even out your combat/biotics/tech bars doesn't mean thats the only way to play the game.

Second of all, as my first paragraph stated, if the devs feel the need to limit something like hacking crates, just to get you to play or take that class with you, then the class is fail.  If your only big advantage over everyone else is 'I can hack crates', then obviously, your a sub-par character.  That is a lower combat class.  Not being able to open a crate because you don't have the right class isn't smarter or more strategic, its a limitation against actual strategics and using characters that could do better.

Note, however, roleplayers, I do agree that its more 'in-story' to limit the ability to hack and bypass to technical characters.  But that should not make a class sub-par(which Bioware did not), whcih is my point there.

Edit: Ok, I've read over your opening post again, and I have an answer for you.

Each class plays differently.  That was the point of giving them unique skills and of not letting them all be the same.  That was the point of only letting them have certain weapons.  The reason for the other classes is that not everyone wants to just run in guns blazing.  Each class is unique and plays differently.  Just because you can't use the Infiltrator right, doesn't mean its useless.  And that has nothing to do with opening crates.

Modifié par EternalWolfe, 12 février 2010 - 02:24 .

[52597]

Really the only thing I miss from the game is a few more skills to choose from, stats on your weapons so you can actually see what they do, and maybe a little more flexibility in outfitting them with mods. Not the massive amounts of strange things you could add in ME, but just a little to customize yourself and the team a little more. But the way I see it ME2 is a shooter with rpg elements, and I think they do it rather well. I quite like the fact that you're not forced to bring along anyone to missions, just because you'll miss equipment and bonuses from not having them along. As to classes, it's a matter of opinion. I seldom play anything besides a soldier, just because I like ripping things to shreds with an assault rifle.

[MassEffect762]

Tom Adama wrote...

Tleining wrote...

so what is stopping you from using Grunt and Jack to do the same in ME2?

Why? So I can use concussive shot and that shockwave biotic power...

Wrex had throw, barrier,  shotguns (carnage), AR (Overkill), Shield boost, Barrier, Stasis, Fitness, Warp and krogan battlemastery.

Liara had singularity, throw, lift, warp, barrier, stasis, electronics (overload). All of which had multiple effects depending on the level it was progressed to.

I had OPTIONS. I could use a plethora of tactics to overcome the enemy, not just 2 talents with 4 levels of mastery and no subvariations.

This game used shallow action rpg elements only, I dare anyone to say otherwise. The talents only applied to 2 powers in combat which were unique to each squadmate. IE: Samara had throw, Jack did not nor did Miranda or Jacob...

...so basically Im choosing squadmates on what moves they could do, not on the fact they were biotics?

Good point, I didn't like the universal power cooldown either.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 12 février 2010 - 02:31 .

[Tleining]

well, i don't know what else to say here. In Me1 i could play as a soldier and basically leave my team behind, all they were good for was opening doors and hacking computers. In ME2 i actually have to roleplay, my character has his strength and weaknesses, and i need to pay attention who to put into my squad, to defeat my enemies. My first playthrough was as a soldier. It was good, but nothing special. My second one was as a sentinel on Insanity. It was hard, but with the right squadmates i could finish it. My current Shepard is an Adept and i really need Wrex to keep stronger enemies away from me.

I have no intention of playing the other classes, but obviously you can finish the game with them as well.



In my opinion: ME2 is more of an RPG than ME1, and the "shooter-stuff" is better as well. My advice to you: Try to play with the other classes or use another difficulty. Maybe they are better suited to your playing style. Apart from that: Grunt has incendiary ammo. If you don't like the default abilitys, disable auto-level-up for your squadmates and spent the points yourself. oh, and don't forget to have fun