129 réponses à ce sujet

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

gr00grams wrote...

Guys, it is very, very simple;

They did not remove too many of the RPG elments.
It is just the way they 'streamlined' them.

LISTEN;

RPG fans like to tinker with everything they can.
The armor method in ME2 is great, but you cannot access it anytime, and there is definitely not enough to satisfy an RPG fan. There's not mods, however effective or ineffective they are.

It's not that it is bad in ME2, it just doesn't appeal to RPG fans.

Next, guns;

Same deal. Guns in ME2 are fine really. There just isn't anything to tinker with, compare, stat... mod...
regardless if you thought ME1's presentation of these elements was good or bad, understand that it leaves true RPG fans without anything to tinker with.

Now upgrades/mods etc.
Again, all CONTROL is taken from the player. That just doesn't fly with traditional RPG fans. Again, it's not a bad method at all, but it just doesn't fly. I farm resource, click a button, have upgrade.

That is not fun for an RPG fan. RPG fans like stats. They like comparisons, numbers, OPTIONS.
The like, yes, LIKE massive inventories etc. as hard as that may be to understand.

Those are usually the reasons they play them.

Again, ME2 isn't any less really than ME1 in terms of 'RPG' it's just how it was done. There is sweet ****** all for us to tinker with really. Everything is done for us, streamlined, whatever you want to call it.

It's not that guns are better, or worse, or that mods are better or worse, it's that we have no control. Upgrades, I don't even know what half of them do.
All I know is that I need enough resources to make any of them when they become available.
Seriously, didn't even read descriptions, because there is no need to.
Didn't read, learn etc about any guns. Didn't need to look at them. Game auto-upgrades them as you go. Hell, really I should have just auto-spent my talent points too.

Again, lastly, it's not that any elements are less of an RPG than ME1, it's we have really no control. The only control we have for the most is in the action aspects, and that does not appeal to core RPG fans.

Neither side is right nor wrong, but it is what it is.

It just seems everything aside the shooting is done for us this time around.
All my guns, upgrades, everything is pretty much done for me, and attempts to glorify itself with how it is presented, but really I have almost no control except the few armor parts I can swap in and out. Like what else is there for me to actually decide this time? the color of my helmet? (which is cool, just really is the only other option I can think of).

QFT!

Everything in ME2 seems automatic now, seriously even the upgrades are for brainless and are repetitive, found new damage/upgrade.. found new damage protection/upgrade.. where are the choices? i upgrade everything with absolutely no thought of cause or consequence about it.
Even the Normandy upgrades are ridiculous, just talk to someone and its automatically installed, no mission behind it no nothing, bah!

[banshee768]

Tom Adama wrote...

Yup, lockdown time.

Sorry mate. I understand what you're saying and I agree. This isn't a RPG with shooter elements, it's the other way around. And for a RPG enthusiast or just like RPGs, it's a downer.

But you won't get anywhere posting about it here. If you're opinion is different then 'theirs' you either suck or you're a troll (which is ironic) and you'll be flamed to oblivion. Nothing constructive will come of it. People like Maviarab are, apparently, the ones calling the shots on these boards. If a constructive post like yours turn up, they'll make sure it's flamed into lockdown, but not so badly that they'll get any reprimands themselves. It's the same people that can't be bothered with an inventory, skills and non-combat abilities. They want a sci-fi shooter and they got it. The rest of us, who don't flame, get shafted. Funny world, this...

[GeometricLol]

omni-geling 50 different items to clear inventory slots is not what defines an RPG. It's the story, dialogue, and plot choices. ME2 is fine

[Aranwen1]

I would like to say that it is a little harder to play as infiltrator when first starting out, i got so use to enemies dying at the sight of me on ME1 and they actually try to fight and sometimes do very vell in ME2.

and i did at one point bring up the infiltrator class got gutted topic o.o you wouldnt give a paladin the pickpocket ability now would you?

and back on topic: once i got use to the new battle and how the enemies actually wanted to kill you and could if you just stand in the open i did very well as an infiltrator ... and once i got my squad to fight instead of hiding way behind me. XD

Modifié par Aranwen1, 14 février 2010 - 07:12 .

[Aranwen1]

GeometricLol wrote...

omni-geling 50 different items to clear inventory slots is not what defines an RPG. It's the story, dialogue, and plot choices. ME2 is fine

The inventory was one of a players main sources of income on ME1, other then killing enemies and finding stuff once you got about 1mill credits, selling items was the only way toget a lot of money. the biggest probablem I had with it was stronger weapons wouldn't always be places on the top like they should have been.

I personally liked the inventory on ME1. I would keep some of the rare weps/items you could find in the game and sell all the other crap I picked up along the way. (i considered something to be rare if it took multiple play-throughs (3 -4) for the item/wep to be found and would keep this item/wep even if it was worse then what I had equipped simply to say I had it).

The inventory could have been ficed if we could have organized it, instead it got gutted and the only real diversity of weps we get is on heavy and the bonus wep we can pick up once for ourselves and an AR I found on a 2nd play-through.

I believe the inventory could have been improved and should have been instead of simply being removed from the game. I liked having several different weps to choose from (even through i only used the strongest of each type(highest damage and shots fired)). instead of being limited to the few we are given.

That is my opinion on the inventory and I do get the feeling that you didn't like it because of the lack of organization it had in ME1 and I understand that, it did get annoying to check and see if you had picked up any stronger gear or spam the Y/A buttons when you were clearing inventory. (turbo controller ftw)

Modifié par Aranwen1, 14 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[Ricardoy]

Would be a lot of better without classes..instead of that..you build ur own class like example have some biotics powers and soldier skills..heh a shepard with one handed pistol and the other throwing powers...that could be awesome..yes...good times good times..

[catabuca]

I died a helluva lot on my first playthrough as a Soldier (on casual, forshame) because I'm not used to shooters. I can't fps to save my life, and even this tps was a challenge. Steep learning curve much?



Anyway, I persevered and now I'd be ready to have another go as Soldier.



I've died far less as an adept (my 2nd playthrough) and even less than that during my current sentinel playthrough, and I have no doubt that that is because I've gotten better at covering, aiming and using what powers I and my squad have more effectively.



That being said, I am a lil miss grumpypants that there are so few talents/powers (call them what you will) for my squad mates to utilise. I've said this somewhere else, but I tend to bring the same 2/3 people along with me for almost every mission: Zaeed for concussive shot/ disrupter ammo/ incendiary grenade; Miranda for overload and warp; Tali if there are geth or on a couple of the mech-only mini-missions. This is as sentinel though. As an adept Garrus usually replaced Zaeed, and Mordin replaced Miranda sometimes.



I only use Jack/Grunt/Jacob/Samara/ when I absolutely have to (their loyalty missions, or Jacob at the start of the game).

[lukandroll]

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

AdamTaylor wrote...

FlashedMyDrive wrote...

Apparently, if you improve game play, it's not an RPG anymore.


Silly me.

No, if you remove the RPG elements, it's not an RPG anymore.
It's a great game. The combat is fun. But then, I like shooters with some RPG elements.

But everyone I know who was expecting more RPG-goodness like the first game, has been greatly disappointed.
There's just so much... less... to the game.

They could have improved the combat without removing other aspects. But they made their choice. And I still enjoy the game.
Don't see it having quite the same replay value though.

Are you refering to the useless passive skills, or how about the horrid armor/weapon system? Maybe the pointless weapon mods? The cookie-cutter, repetative missions?

Armor and weapon leaves the same amount of customization as the first, just implimented differently.

Weapons in the first game all looked the same, aside from a 2 different models. The only thing that changed was the damage/accuracy/heat. In ME2 instead of upgrading weapons by buying new ones, you upgrade the by upgrading them.

Armor customization acts the same way as the guns. Instead of buying new armor (90% of which looked terrible). You swap out parts and purchase upgrades.


All bioware did is shed off useless wieght from the first game.

The only thing they did remove that I liked was the ability to give armor to your squad and gain xp from kills, but even that is not that big of a deal.


So tell me again how these changes, make it loose RPG aspects?


Since when does removing bad content make it less of an RPG?  

Thank you BioWare, now we have to deal with THIS kind of people... god...where the hell this people came from...
IDK where to start

"Are you refering to the useless passive skills, or how about the horrid armor/weapon system? Maybe the  pointless weapon mods? "
Useless for whom? Useless for a 5 year old who does not undertand a **** about what he's doing... Or maybe to the HALO fan who does give a **** about character development and planning, he just wanna shoot em up...yep...
Sorry but NO, you are clearly talking your ass out.

"The cookie-cutter, repetative missions?"
Sorry, but scanning a planet feels exaclty the SAME thing, every time, no matter how big or small the planet is, I guess that ISN'T cookie-cutter design...
Or maybe the AMAZING level design which is always like this

NOOOO, I guess ME2 level desing is not repetitive, nonono sir , is as fresh drinking fuel on a desert


"Armor and weapon leaves the same amount of customization as the first, just implimented differently."
So i guess, not having the option the change your party members armor, is EXACLTY the same AS be ABLE to change it.... strange logic you have...
Not to mention the exhilerating feel of choosing between: 2 pistols and 3 smgs and 3 sniper riffles...
Sorry but no ME1 offered MUCH more customization on the GUNS on the first 2 planets that ME2 in its entire career.

I'll stop here, I don't want to make you cry

Modifié par lukandroll, 14 février 2010 - 07:19 .

[Aranwen1]

o do go on, i love these dramatic movies XD



also, at this time i would like to state that people are different and like different things >.> you know... in case some of you forget we all aren't your clone. and while I'm on the subject for the people that do have thoughts different then the topic starter, using insults to prove your point doesn't make you right.



and person above me, that was ME1. in ME2 they added a longer hallway XD

[wolfwarp]

Some of you guys' replies really make me sick. This I-am-better-than-thou altitude is really annoying. You guys should just tell OP on how to play Infiltrator better. Rather than, "you suck".

Back to the OP, it must be pretty frustrating for you. And I too when I first started on ME 2. I am not sure how far you are into your class. But do give it some time. Your opinion may change. I had no problem playing a Vanguard in ME 1. But it was really hard to adjust to ME 2 (I am certainly no shooter). After a while, I picked up some useful tips in this forum and am doing quite a decent job.

BTW, I am now returning to ME 1 and I must say, it is so much more enjoyable than ME 2, minus the bells and whistles that quite honestly speaking, I hardly miss.

Modifié par wolfwarp, 14 février 2010 - 07:23 .

[RighteousRage]

Yes, my soldier and infiltrator playthroughs were like the exact same thing.



Get behind cover at the back of the room, pull out widow, slow mo, headshot, reload, slow mo, headshot, reload, etc. etc. forever

[lukandroll]

Aranwen1 wrote...

o do go on, i love these dramatic movies XD

also, at this time i would like to state that people are different and like different things >.> you know... in case some of you forget we all aren't your clone. and while I'm on the subject for the people that do have thoughts different then the topic starter, using insults to prove your point doesn't make you right.

Just for you to know, he started insulting the OP for not being good at shooters. So whatever.

Modifié par lukandroll, 14 février 2010 - 07:31 .

[Aranwen1]

lukandroll wrote...

Aranwen1 wrote...

o do go on, i love these dramatic movies XD

also, at this time i would like to state that people are different and like different things >.> you know... in case some of you forget we all aren't your clone. and while I'm on the subject for the people that do have thoughts different then the topic starter, using insults to prove your point doesn't make you right.

Just for you to know, he started insulting the OP for not being good a shooters. Whatever.

the top and bottom where the only parts meant for you XD
the middle was more to everyone o.o shoulda organized that more.

Modifié par Aranwen1, 14 février 2010 - 07:34 .

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

Well i played an infiltrator on my 1st play through and had no problems on normal difficulty, but now i´m playing a sentinel on insanity and its just hair pulling because of the global cooldown, i mean why do i have cooldown in tech if i use biotics or medigel? breaks down the action and tactics when i just have to wait behind cover more and more, i need to be fast and i can´t because of dumb game mechanics, i say give global cooldown for powers of the same type only.

[Poptart Hyena]

This is all kind of silly—just about EVERYONE in this topic, with a few exceptions, so forgive me for not quoting about twenty different people.

The game was definitely streamlined, and upgrades are just presented to you, which is a little disappointing. What I would like to see, personally, are upgrade TREES for the weapons. That would, imho, completely solidify the new system. Perhaps we can look forward to that in ME3, especially if people present it in a wishful fashion, rather than empty complaints.

I would also like to see—as someone else mentioned—more armor pieces released as free DLC, rather than the full suits. That would really help to add to RPG tinkering, even like 6-8 pieces per body part. As long as they all had viable use, would be a pretty good balance, and I think would alleviate some complaints about lack of tinkering.

Now, to address the point that Mass Effect 1 had more "RPG" elements, well... I'm not so sure. Honestly, you cannot argue that for endgame, there were only TWO armor suits worth using. Predator and Colossus. All the way up to that point, there was maybe one or two manufacturers with armor worth using, and it was simple to eyeball and see what was better. There was really no "comparing". There was no difference between a suit with like +2 biotic protection, or -10 shields from the suit you were currently using. There was no need to equip new armor unless it provided a significant upgrade. It gave the illusion of customization, but truthfully, was a simple as just buying a new suit of armor at the next town. Nothing special, although that's really my opinion.

Weapons, well, it's the same. There's the obvious "best" weapons, and as you level, there's only a couple lines of weapons worth using. It's the same with the weapon attachments. Only a few worth using... give your squadmate (or your) Sniper Rifle Scram Rails and High Explosive rounds and watch them dominate enemies while you blast them away with your weapons that refuse to overhead. Ammo types, sure... were cool, but really provide no big bonus. I've played through ME1 on Insanity just as easily with ammo types, and not even bothering (my final play-through before ME2... wanted a new save, just blew through on Insanity, did all the assignments, didn't bother with weapon attachments).

Basically, Mass Effect 1 presented, like most "RPGs", the illusion of customization by just offering you inventory clutter. In Mass Effect 2, instead of making their previous system more robust, they chose to streamline it. I personally wish they went with refining the inventory system, and making it better, however... the end result is basically the same as Mass Effect 1 in terms of equipment.

As anyone that has played D&D, or any pen and paper game will tell you, Role-Playing Games are about choices you make that affect things around you, which the Mass Effect games present in a pretty good fashion. Paragon and Renegade offer fun dialogue and role-playing options, and for me, make it worth playing more than once—not because of armor or weapons.

This comment goes to the hacking of things. I'm sorry, but... Shepard is an N7 elite. It seems like hacking simple things like datapads and bypassing door security would be something he was at least given a crash course in, and probably even has minor tech tools to assist him. Just because he's a soldier and knows how to "shoot gud" doesn't mean he's a complete buffoon off the battlefield. Even if that's not the case, it's something you could expect he might have learned during his travels in Mass Effect. So... I don't agree at all that hacking makes any kind of difference.

As far as team building goes, I do feel it's more necessary in Mass Effect 2 to pick squad mates that will offer the most to a certain mission. I felt much less need to do that in the first game, although it wasn't completely non-existent. I also agree that the classes feel much more defined in this game, and have their own playstyles.

I love both games, however, and have played through ME extensively, and I see myself doing the same for ME2. Working on my third game now. This topic is FULL of trolls on both sides, whether or not they'll admit it. Get over it guys.

Mass Effect 1 had the illusion of customization, and Mass Effect 2 removed the illusion, instead of making it more robust. Disappointing, but I don't feel that it takes away from the RPG aspect. It sounds like people are basing this "RPG aspect" on J-RPGs and games where you can play with different suits of armor, instead of character development and choices you can have Shepard make.

Modifié par Poptart Hyena, 14 février 2010 - 10:11 .

[lukandroll]

@Poptart Hyena

I disagree, its not an illusion of customization, in ME1, you had more variety in mods in the first 2 planets than in ME2 entire game.

And the mods weren't all the same, in ME1 you could mod out the same gun and obtain more valid outcomes than in ME2 entire arsenal, if anything, this new mod system feels as all mods are exactly the same, so every one is forced to use them the same way.

ME1 had more deep, whenever you dig it or not, whenever you bother to look for it or not...

[Poptart Hyena]

lukandroll wrote...

@Poptart Hyena
I disagree, its not an illusion of customization, in ME1, you had more variety in mods in the first 2 planets than in ME2 entire game.
And the mods weren't all the same, in ME1 you could mod out the same gun and obtain more valid outcomes than in ME2 entire arsenal, if anything, this new mod system feels as all mods are exactly the same, so every one is forced to use them the same way.
ME1 had more deep, whenever you dig it or not, whenever you bother to look for it or not...

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.  I am an avid RPG fan, and I love modifying and tinkering just as much as the next, however I found only a few modifcations proved any real use.  I never encountered a problem that I needed to change ammo or modifcations to solve, nor did I ever notice any specifc mods having a significant impact.  Believe me, my first couple of playthroughs, I played around a lot with mods, and would swap ammo types, and would use radar mods against Geth, etc., etc.  However, playing through without them was really no different.

I say illusion, because the customization aspect was more in your head, than anywhere, as the actual modifications had a relatively small impact.  Once I realized that, it was kind of lost on me...

Edited for typo.

Modifié par Poptart Hyena, 14 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[XfStef]

I agree, classes are useless, atleast not until insanity... if you're an ok shooter gamer, you whon't have any problems with the game

[Tom Adama]

XfStef wrote...

I agree, classes are useless, atleast not until insanity... if you're an ok shooter gamer, you whon't have any problems with the game

I expected the playstyle to be like ME1, but it was more like Gears 2 with much poorer combat. The shooter mechanics in ME1 were forgivable because it was a action RPG, ME2 felt like a bad 3rd person shooter rather than a good action RPG.

I kept trying to play this game more tactically like in ME1 but it kept force feeding me the action-shooter playstyle by swarming me with badies. Basically I had to hot key my moves and cover-hug-run-repeat during fights.

...then I would find myself outflanked on my 20"inch TV by an offscreen enemy like a varren chomping on my ****** just behind me. That red crap would fill the screen then I would cloak, reposition, hit cover, then start shooting again. I turned my squad power usage off in ME1 and same in ME2 because I wanted to control there attacks, maybe that was a mistake.

BTW, did you guys know the soldier has grenades also? And that they can stand toe to toe and not die with a Heavy Mech... WTF? I had to switch to my SMG, use disruptor ammo and shoot until I had no more ammo, switch to my Heavy pistol and incend tech until its armor was gone, then switch to a sniper to finish it off... All the soldier has to do is Asssault rifle the turd and its dead in 5 seconds (with incend ammo).

I guess thats why Infiltrator sucked for me, I kept playing this game like Gears because thats what it wanted me to do. Who wants to sit back behind a fight and bullet kiss 9 soldiers with your sniper rifle then run out to find those damn thermal clips and repeat the fight? At least in Gears my sniper rifle (awesome gun in that game!) had 30 or so rounds in reserve along with the 5 in the clip!

Modifié par Tom Adama, 15 février 2010 - 01:21 .

[Your Synthetic Superior]

What exactly is a role play element?

And how is ME2 less of a role playing game than ME1? Please tell me you aren't talking about trifling **** like finding guns and ammo in crates because I thought a role playing game was about playing a role...

[Roxlimn]

Tom Adama:



I get that you don't like ME2. However, you are not presenting your case well. For instance:



1. No one cares that you died a lot as an Infiltrator. In my Hardcore Infiltrator run, I busted straight through Garrus' mission, no problems. I didn't even bring both my team mates. Whether or not it's easy for you doesn't matter, and it's only clouding your point. Drop this point, it's not doing your case any favors.



2. Your understanding of the mechanics of ME1 is limited. All the classes bust combat even on Insanity because the difficulty levels in that game are completely borked. I can and have completed that game with virtually every class and every specialization using any and all squad combinations. It can be done, and it's not even all that hard. Who you took along was more a matter of which achievement you wanted rather than which team mate was suited to which mission. They ALL worked about equally well, if you worked them right.



3. Continuing on the previous point, inventory management and mod selection in ME1 was largely illusory. The choice of armor you had at any one point basically devolved between two sets, and they were largely the same anyway. Choice of weapons was largely also cosmetic. You can, (and I have) run through any class using any gun and succeed. You don't HAVE to snipe as an Infiltrator in ME1 even on the toughest difficulty. It was not much of a sniper class, to be honest.



Modding was, well, the changes were small and more or less negligible. You COULD switch between shotgun and pistol for long and short range work, but efficacy was largely unchanged as compared to pure pistol work. A pistol with Frictionless performed somewhat different than one with Scram mods, but on the whole, you worked within the confines of a few combo choices. Ammo choice was similarly limited.



ME2's weapon categories actually offer performance differences. As you said, you were highly encouraged to switch between weapons for maximum performance. There were real differences between the guns, and not having to spend points to use guns means that all the guns you carry are actually at full functional capacity all the time.



gr00gams mentions that you just upgrade and upgrade and upgrade and it doesn't matter which ones you took. Not true. In true RPG fashion, I researched gun upgrades and locations after my first game and took note. Which order you tackle missions actually matters. You can (and I have) climb up Submachine Gun upgrades really fast, allowing you to take missions against Shielded opponents with a significant advantage, gaining Pistol upgrades later on.



4. Individualization of classes is more distinct in ME2. I played a Vanguard and an Adept in ME1. They performed largely the same, and the spammage of powers were, themselves, of limited scope. Mainly, you lock down a room over and over and over again, and it didn't matter much which power you used to do it, since the end effect was pretty much the same. Soldier and Infiltrator classes used Immunity, then spam gunfire - played mostly the same.



In ME2, these classes perform differently. Soldier is tougher with Hardened Adrenaline Rush or more accurate with more guns with Heightened Adrenaline Rush. Concussive Blast gives the Soldier a Throw-like control power. His skills Disruptor and Inciendary Ammo are great for direct damage, direct killing. Infiltrator isn't as tough, but gets auto-slowdown with Sniper Rifles, making those guns the natural choice for Infiltrators. Tactical Cloak allows you to reposition yourself without threat to set up the perfect headshot. Disruptor, Incinerate, and Cryo gives the Infiltrator the techy feel.



They're both gun-centric classes, but they don't play the same unless you spec your Soldier to replicate an Infiltrator, in which case the fault is entirely yours.

[LoweGear]

[All of the following were played at Hardcore level]

So I did a run-through of the Omega recruitment missions (both Archangel and Mordin) using my Soldier NG+ at level 30  (which I leveled up at Normal DIfficulty).... and I found it easier to run through Hardcore on the Omega levels than with my Infiltrator.

Now here's the strange thing. I just created a new Vanguard this afternoon on the same difficulty... and ripped through combat in both missions in the quarter of the time than my NG+ Soldier, or even my Infiltrator. I did die a lot of times trying to get the hang of Biotic Charge, but once I did get the hang of it through multiple reloads the total combat time was way faster than anything I've done with my Soldier and Infiltrator. Makes me wish I had picked Vanguard on my first playthrough.

And then there was my experience with my NG+ Soldier when I got to Grunt's Recruitment mission - my level 30 Soldier with all of its powerful weapons and gear (including an M98 Widow)... was having way more difficulty against Jedora than my first playthrough with the Infiltrator. Whereas with my Infiltrator I could cloak and flank to assassinate Jedora quickly, my Soldier keeps getting outflanked by Krogans because of his visibility, and with no damage bonus abilities my Soldier couldn't kill the Krogans or the YMIR mech fast enough.

tl;dr My gaming experience was directly affected by which class I was playing. Hence from my experience, the classes do matter.

Modifié par LoweGear, 15 février 2010 - 05:38 .

[Tom Adama]

Roxlimn wrote...

Tom Adama:

I get that you don't like ME2.

Yup, I agree with your post.

[Daveastation]

I like RPGs and I like ME2, would you argue that I have found myself in a paradox?