250 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

I find myself increasingly convinced that the Dark Ritual is going to turn out to be a good thing, or at least a mixed blessing. This may be proven wildly incorrect by 'Awakenings', but here's what I've been thinking....

The wardens have essentially been exteminating the old gods, tainted gods, but gods nonetheless. In order to actually kill the god, they have to drink the darkspawn blood in a complex ritual. Who gave them that ritual? What if the whole thing--corrupting the old god, the creation of wardens, the blights--is part of a plan to get the wardens to kill the old gods, perhaps because if they were to wake, uncorrupted, it would spoil plans of some kind?

To move a little further down that road, what if 'The Maker' is an old god, and has disappeared because, like the other old gods, he/she/it is sleeping or hibernating or whatever? Wouldn't that be a kicker if the wardens destroyed the Maker?

[FierachEredasSoulchiou]

Wynnne/Leliana/Chantry disapproves -50.

Modifié par FierachEredasSoulchiou, 12 février 2010 - 01:33 .

[CptPatch]

There has been an extensive discussion that you might find interesting here:
http://social.biowar...66/index/588407

My contention is that Morrigan is using the Dark Ritual as a means to make _her_ the most awesome Mage Thedas has ever seen.  And that was her goal all along.

[TripLight]

This is why I think there should have been more (or any, in that case) history codexes Pre-Tevinter.

Side note, do the Dalish (Elven, in general) Gods correlate with the Seven Gods? I can't remember where I read it, but someone suggested the Elven Gods are the Tevinter Gods. I can't help but think that Arlathan has something to do with the whole thing in general.

Modifié par TripLight, 12 février 2010 - 01:40 .

[errant_knight]

CptPatch wrote...

There has been an extensive discussion that you might find interesting here:
http://social.biowar...66/index/588407

My contention is that Morrigan is using the Dark Ritual as a means to make _her_ the most awesome Mage Thedas has ever seen.  And that was her goal all along.

Thanks for the link, I'll give it a read!

TripLight wrote...

This is why I think there should have been more (or any, in that case) history codexes Pre-Tevinter.

Side note, do the Dalish (Elven, in general) Gods correlate with the Seven Gods? I can't remember where I read it, but someone suggested the Elven Gods are the Tevinter Gods. I can't help but think that Arlathan has something to do with the whole thing in general.

I think the codices are things that are known by the current population, so pre-Tevinter history would mostly be lost to time except for a few legends that survived. I really don't  know much about the Elven gods, I'm afraid.

Modifié par errant_knight, 12 février 2010 - 01:46 .

[DarthRomance]

I don't think it is good or evil. In this game it is all about point of view and winning for yourself. Morrigan sees an advantage in it for herself so she does and it could play a role in future adventures most likely remaining ambiguous whether it is good or bad just like Morrigan/Flemeth herself.



Of course, no doubt in hundreds of years the Chantry and other smartasses will look back and turn the Dark Ritual into a cautionary tale about the hazards of sex and the temptations of women.

[CptPatch]

TripLight wrote...
This is why I think there should have been more (or any, in that case) history codexes Pre-Tevinter.

Side note, do the Dalish (Elven, in general) Gods correlate with the Seven Gods? I can't remember where I read it, but someone suggested the Elven Gods are the Tevinter Gods. I can't help but think that Arlathan has something to do with the whole thing in general.

Think of all the pre-Tevinter history books to be similar to all the scrolls lost when the Library of Alexandria in the Real World  was destroyed.  Essentially, the history is there; it's just that the records are missing.

[draxynnus]

TripLight wrote...

This is why I think there should have been more (or any, in that case) history codexes Pre-Tevinter.

Side note, do the Dalish (Elven, in general) Gods correlate with the Seven Gods? I can't remember where I read it, but someone suggested the Elven Gods are the Tevinter Gods. I can't help but think that Arlathan has something to do with the whole thing in general.

I think it's been confirmed by Word of God that the Old Gods aren't the gods that the Elves worshipped. There is, however, a theory linking the Old Gods to the dark gods that Ferenhal imprisoned in the Abyss - and, to take an idea and run with it, Ferenhal with the Maker.

Something gives me the feeling that some day we'll plunge the secrets of Arlathan or ancient Tevinter...just not necassarily soon.

Regarding the Ritual being good or bad...Really, it depends on who you think the Old Gods in general are, and which one this may be. Might go into a more detailed analysis when I have time, but right now I don't really.

[errant_knight]

DarthRomance wrote...

I don't think it is good or evil. In this game it is all about point of view and winning for yourself. Morrigan sees an advantage in it for herself so she does and it could play a role in future adventures most likely remaining ambiguous whether it is good or bad just like Morrigan/Flemeth herself.

Of course, no doubt in hundreds of years the Chantry and other smartasses will look back and turn the Dark Ritual into a cautionary tale about the hazards of sex and the temptations of women.

Okay, let me rephrase: I believe there are good actions in the game, and evil ones. I'm starting to think that it will turn out that the dark ritual, rather than being a place where Alistair and my PC failed to uphold their values, my turn out not to be so. That killing the old gods may turn out to have been a very bad thing, in my conception of right and wrong. Basically, will letting the soul of the old god survive turn out to be something that Alistair will approve of?

But you knew that's what I meant, didn't you?

[TripLight]

errant_knight wrote...

I think the codices are things that are known by the current population, so pre-Tevinter history would mostly be lost to time except for a few legends that survived. I really don't know much about the Elven gods, I'm afraid.

CptPatch wrote...

Think of all the pre-Tevinter history books to be similar to all the scrolls lost when the Library of Alexandria in the Real World was destroyed. Essentially, the history is there; it's just that the records are missing.

I figured as much. I was just holding out hope that I missed something in game.

draxynnus wrote...

I think it's been confirmed by Word of God that the Old Gods aren't the gods that the Elves worshipped. There is, however, a theory linking the Old Gods to the dark gods that Ferenhal imprisoned in the Abyss - and, to take an idea and run with it, Ferenhal with the Maker.
Something gives me the feeling that some day we'll plunge the secrets of Arlathan or ancient Tevinter...just not necassarily soon.
Regarding the Ritual being good or bad...Really, it depends on who you think the Old Gods in general are, and which one this may be. Might go into a more detailed analysis when I have time, but right now I don't really.

Oh, you wouldn't happen to have a link to that theory would you? And thanks for clearing up the TevinterGod/ElvenGod connection.

Edit: Formatting

Modifié par TripLight, 12 février 2010 - 02:12 .

[errant_knight]

draxynnus wrote...
I think it's been confirmed by Word of God that the Old Gods aren't the gods that the Elves worshipped. There is, however, a theory linking the Old Gods to the dark gods that Ferenhal imprisoned in the Abyss - and, to take an idea and run with it, Ferenhal with the Maker.

Something gives me the feeling that some day we'll plunge the secrets of Arlathan or ancient Tevinter...just not necassarily soon.

Regarding the Ritual being good or bad...Really, it depends on who you think the Old Gods in general are, and which one this may be. Might go into a more detailed analysis when I have time, but right now I don't really.

Well, I can't wait 'till you do! Your analysis is always very interesting!

[CptPatch]

So much of the mythology of Thedas mirrors the various mythologies of the Real World. The Maker (but apparently NOT the maker of _everything) imprisoning the Old Gods is soooo close to the Greek pantheon imprisoning the Titans. [And the havoc that is wrought whenever a Titan breaks free.] The Maker as the ONE God is practically a mirror of how Jehovah is essentially how what had previously been viewed as a pantheon was in fact different **aspects** of the One True God. "Our God is actually all your gods combined." And the Disciples of Andraste are quite similar to the various Virgin Mary cults. (Albeit a St. Mary that behaves more like the Wrath of God version of St. Michael the Archangel.) [Also closely note that though the Disciples had elevated Andraste to godhood status, I don't recall any of them ever denigrating the Maker. Logical, when I come to think of it. The Maker had turned His back on humanity, but Andraste was the on-scene divine influence. So do you loudly revere the distant God, or His main representative in the world during His absence?]



It would be interesting to get a thorough study of the Elvish gods. I get the feeling that they're most closely modeled after the various Native American dieties.

[errant_knight]

CptPatch wrote...

So much of the mythology of Thedas mirrors the various mythologies of the Real World. The Maker (but apparently NOT the maker of _everything) imprisoning the Old Gods is soooo close to the Greek pantheon imprisoning the Titans. [And the havoc that is wrought whenever a Titan breaks free.] The Maker as the ONE God is practically a mirror of how Jehovah is essentially how what had previously been viewed as a pantheon was in fact different **aspects** of the One True God. "Our God is actually all your gods combined." And the Disciples of Andraste are quite similar to the various Virgin Mary cults. (Albeit a St. Mary that behaves more like the Wrath of God version of St. Michael the Archangel.) [Also closely note that though the Disciples had elevated Andraste to godhood status, I don't recall any of them ever denigrating the Maker. Logical, when I come to think of it. The Maker had turned His back on humanity, but Andraste was the on-scene divine influence. So do you loudly revere the distant God, or His main representative in the world during His absence?]

I had thought of Mary in conjunction with Andraste, but Archangel Michael is an excellent observation. He has a flaming sword, too.... 

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Bioware needs to write a Thedas encyclopedia.

[MishenNikara]

FierachEredasSoulchiou wrote...

Wynnne/Leliana/Chantry disapproves -50.

Wynnne/Leliana/Chantry No one who matters because they aren't the grey warden and they don't have to die to kill the archdemon without the ritual disapproves -50.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't believe the essense of the archdemon is that of an old god. I don't think Morrigan believes it either. The child, whatever it turns out to be, is obviously a way to gain power or freedom, as those are the only things Morrigan values.



Not surprising as eventually her mother is going to return and come looking for an attractive Morrigan body to possess.

[errant_knight]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't believe the essense of the archdemon is that of an old god. I don't think Morrigan believes it either. The child, whatever it turns out to be, is obviously a way to gain power or freedom, as those are the only things Morrigan values.

Not surprising as eventually her mother is going to return and come looking for an attractive Morrigan body to possess.

What do you thinks it is?

[highcastle]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't believe the essense of the archdemon is that of an old god. I don't think Morrigan believes it either. The child, whatever it turns out to be, is obviously a way to gain power or freedom, as those are the only things Morrigan values.

I'm not so sure about this. For one thing, I think Morrigan is deeper than a lot of people give her credit for. She comes off as hostile and self-centered, but this is to be expected from someone who lived a life of isolation raised by something like Flemeth. But even if you strictly get to know her as a friend, you see hints of compassion in her. We don't know what her motives are, and we don't know her real character. That much I believe.

As for the ritual itself...I had a conversation with this in my store (I work at gamestop) with a customer. He was talking about the ritual as the "bad" ending, and I said I didn't see it that way at all (I figured killing Loghain or Al would be the "bad" ending). This is merely middle ground. Very grey, yes, but not intrinsically evil. Again, it depends on how you view the Morrigan character and the world of Thedas on the whole. But I don't think the ritual was evil.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't know.

If you pressed a gun to my kneecap and asked me to guess, I'd say that it's a dragon that's above even a 'high' dragon. A queen dragon maybe?

[Ibby1kanobi]

I just wanted to live at the end of the game so that I could do two things: Go back to Highover and rebuild what my family lost, and to continue making sweet sweet baby making sex with Lelianna. I figure if Morrigan is up to anything suspicious I'll just track her down and kill them both (should it turn out to be an evil plan).



I mean....I've killed 2 "Old Gods" already. How hard can a baby god be?

[CptPatch]

When I stop to think about it, why were the old Gods thought to be gods in the first place?  They're immortal -- until somebody kills them just so.  But then again, the ancient Elves were also said to be immortal.  Why wouldn't ALL of them qualify as gods as well?  So the Old Gods were uber-powerful -- but so are any High Dragons, such as the one outside the temple for the Urn of Sacred Ashes.  And once again, even High Dragons can be slain.  If the Old Gods were Creators, there might be some credence to the claim, but it seems that at best they may have also been powerful Mages in their own right.  It may be true that when slain they can transfer to another's body, which they then transform into another dragon-form -- but so can Flemeth.  (Flemeth can shapechange into a dragon, AND transfer her consciousness into a properly prepared daughter.) Why has no one declared Flemeth for godhood?  And it is actually quite commonplace that demons from the Fade can possess most any Mage in Thedas if the opportunity arises.  Why aren't those demons considered to be gods?

It seems that all that is required to become a god in Thedas is to be VERY powerful.  But then, even the Roman emperors would get to be declared gods, and physically, none of them were all that powerful.  And even as "gods" NO ONE ever expected them to live forever.

It seems that similar to life here in the Real World, the most powerful gods are those that you never see, must be worshipped in blind faith that they are indeed gods, and for some unsubstantiated reasons, EVERYTHING good (blessings) and bad (God's wrath) is attributed to them/Him/Her.

[Maria Caliban]

highcastle wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't believe the essense of the archdemon is that of an old god. I don't think Morrigan believes it either. The child, whatever it turns out to be, is obviously a way to gain power or freedom, as those are the only things Morrigan values.

I'm not so sure about this. For one thing, I think Morrigan is deeper than a lot of people give her credit for.

I don't think desiring power and freedom make one shallow.

even if you strictly get to know her as a friend, you see hints of compassion in her.

Morrigan might be capable of compassion, but we’re talking about why she wants the kid. ‘Compassion’ did not motivate her to travel around Ferelden with you, risking her own life, and then letting the PC/Alistair/Loghain knock her up with the god-baby.

To quote a developer: “Morrigan does not do charity work.”

Ibby1kanobi wrote...
I mean....I've killed 2 "Old Gods" already. How hard can a baby god be?

You've killed one Old God.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 février 2010 - 07:26 .

[Ibby1kanobi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ibby1kanobi wrote...
I mean....I've killed 2 "Old Gods" already. How hard can a baby god be?

You've killed one Old God.

It depends on what you thought Flemeth was....

[CptPatch]

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ibby1kanobi wrote...
I mean....I've killed 2 "Old Gods" already. How hard can a baby god be?

You've killed one Old God.

It depends on what you thought Flemeth was....

I don't recall either Flemeth/dragon or Andraste/High Dragon casting spells such as the archdemon could cast. (Vortex and I would suppose you would call it "Mass Mind" over ALL darkspawn.)  Those make the archdemon significantly tougher than either Flemeth/dragon or Andraste/High Dragon.

[Maria Caliban]

Ibby1kanobi wrote...
It depends on what you thought Flemeth was....

An abomination. Even the story that Morrigan tells about her mother casts her as an abomination. And why would a old-god need to body hop to her daughters to stay alive?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 février 2010 - 07:45 .