250 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLion36]

TSamee wrote...
Regarding the choice in Redcliffe, option three doesn't cost you, per se, but it costs someone else rather dearly. Remember the blacksmith? The old man whose help you enlist to help defend Redcliffe, and whose daughter you promise to save in return? Well, I'm not sure what happens if you pick options one or two, but if you spend time gathering mages at the Circle, she dies.

This is not true, I just checked my saves to make sure but my first 2 characters went to the mages tower to get help and made sure both Connor and Isolde lived, my completed quest log indicates that Owen's daughter Valena made it back the village safely and that Owen is very grateful.

The dragon age wiki states on Valena: "If Valena is not found by the time the Connor situation is resolved, she will disappear from the castle and be counted as dead.", so you most likely didn't speak to her while going through Redcliffe castle the first time around or you encountered a game bug / fluke OR there is a special situation where this happens although I can find no trace of it in the wiki.

Modifié par TheLion36, 20 février 2010 - 10:00 .

[Maria Caliban]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

krylo wrote...

Here's a fun theory that's been bouncing about in my head that pertains to this:

When an archdemon is slain by a Warden it doesn't actually kill the old god.  This makes sense in that an old god should be far more powerful than a fade spirit, and when fade spirits hop into a body containing a soul it doesn't murder everyone involved--quite the opposite, actually.  Plus, an old god's soul should, ostensibly, be more powerful than any mortal soul.  Instead the immediate conflict between souls destroys the body, and the taint with it (which can only exist as a physical thing, as that darkspawn have no souls).  The old god is then thrown into the fade in a much diminished form.

There's a difference in Thedas between spirits and souls. Spirits are creatures of the Fade. They lack a creative spark and so can only mimic what they see in the dreams of mortals.

Souls are things that creatures *not* of the Fade have. The Old Gods are not of the Fade, they didn't come from there and they wouldn't rematerialize there if they died. They have souls, and are not spirits.

Two souls cannot inhabit the same body. A spirit and a soul can though. Presumably, two spirits can't inhabit the same body/vessel/area either.

Um according to the Chantry the Old God's are spirits from the Fade. 
"It is said that the spirits of the Fade were the Maker's first creations and were flawed and thus cast out from the Maker's grace.  These spirits were jealous of the living and whispered to them in their dreams, telling them that they were the true gods and that the living should bow down before them.  And the living did so, summoning these spirits through the Veil into our world and worshipping them as idols that walked among them.  These were the Old Gods, spirits powerful enough that it is said they took the form of dragons."

What Codex entry is that?

Anyways....

David Gaider

The Old Gods were trapped in their ancient prisons underneath the earth. Their minds, however, roamed the Fade -- presumably the same as any dreamer's might -- and contacted the first magisters (who back then were known as "dreamers" and had learned on their own to walk the Fade as mages do now).

So they weren't spirits, really, no. Spirits are creatures that are native to the Fade.

[TheLion36]

blademaster7 wrote...
Riordan's opinion would be very enlightening and would have made the decision so much easier. Hell, he was in the very next room. Remember what Duncan did to Ser Jory? Grey Wardens don't let anyone get away with classified information, let alone someone who want's to use the Archdemon to give birth to an Old God.

Which we can also wonder about now because apparantly everybody knows about the joining ritual, during the landsmeet it turns out that Anora knows all about the joining ritual and is not affraid at all to speak about it with dozens of nobles present...


@Maria Caliban: I don't remember if there was a codex like that but somehow the story seemed familiar... will see if I can find something, it was probably in the codex about the Maker but not sure... It could also be that it just sounds like the first children story talking through the veil to the 2nd children.

EDIT: Quickly browsed some codexes on the wiki but can't find any mention... 

Modifié par TheLion36, 20 février 2010 - 10:13 .

[blademaster7]

TheLion36 wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...
Riordan's opinion would be very enlightening and would have made the decision so much easier. Hell, he was in the very next room. Remember what Duncan did to Ser Jory? Grey Wardens don't let anyone get away with classified information, let alone someone who want's to use the Archdemon to give birth to an Old God.

Which we can also wonder about now because apparantly everybody knows about the joining ritual, during the landsmeet it turns out that Anora knows all about the joining ritual and is not affraid at all to speak about it with dozens of nobles present...

Anora just knows that the Joining might be fatal and nothing more. Fair enough... but she the freaking Queen and she probably learned it from Cailan who had access to that kind of information. Maybe Duncan told him.

Morrigan on the other hand... is an apostate, the daughter of the "legendary Flemeth" and a person who's morals are questionable. It's not the same.

What do you think Duncan and Riordan would do if she outright told them that she knows the GW secrets?

Modifié par blademaster7, 20 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[TSamee]

TheLion36 wrote...

TSamee wrote...
Regarding the choice in Redcliffe, option three doesn't cost you, per se, but it costs someone else rather dearly. Remember the blacksmith? The old man whose help you enlist to help defend Redcliffe, and whose daughter you promise to save in return? Well, I'm not sure what happens if you pick options one or two, but if you spend time gathering mages at the Circle, she dies.

This is not true, I just checked my saves to make sure but my first 2 characters went to the mages tower to get help and made sure both Connor and Isolde lived, my completed quest log indicates that Owen's daughter Valena made it back the village safely and that Owen is very grateful.

The dragon age wiki states on Valena: "If Valena is not found by the time the Connor situation is resolved, she will disappear from the castle and be counted as dead.", so you most likely didn't speak to her while going through Redcliffe castle the first time around or you encountered a game bug / fluke OR there is a special situation where this happens although I can find no trace of it in the wiki.

Oh, fair enough then. I thought that if I went into the top floor I'd be forced to kill Conor, nevermind then. Great, now I have an old man's blood on my hands

[TheLion36]

blademaster7 wrote...
What do you think Duncan and Riordan would do if she outright told them that she knows the GW secrets?

No idea, but Ser Jory also didn't know more than that the ritual could be fatal and that it involved drinking blood. I think the fatal fact is probably the biggest secret so they'll still be able to recruit people! 
Besides that fact that Anora is queen, she did also mention all those GW secrets in front of a full landsmeet lol!  I just always considered this a fluke in the story however... 

But yeah Riordan would probably not be very pleased with the fact that Morrigan and Flemeth know about it I guess!  

[krylo]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
You're probably right. Morrigan actually is pretty truthful overall. I've often found it funny that people call her "manipulative" on the forum; she doesn't understand people enough to manipulate them. If she really was manipulative, she wouldn't have told the truth about the ritual.

Um she really doesn't come right out n tell you the truth about the ritual, she says why it needs to be done (so she can capture the Old God) but she isn't telling you everything.  When you ask her why she wants it, what she wants with it, she skirts around that particular question so no Morrigan is not being honest about the ritual.

You're misunderstanding.

Alan means she wouldn't have mentioned the ritual at all.  She would have either just asked for one night of passion before the last day of battle/played to your ego/whatever other tricks and lies it might take to convince the warden to have sex with her/have Alistair have sex with her, and, IF any of the ritual was obvious during love making, pass it off as a sexual roleplay or game.

Or she may just lie about the ritual and claim that sexualization was a mainstay of these ancient rituals, and that it allows some kind of silliness/mumbojumbo that would let you live like... I don't know, claiming it temporarily binds your souls and reinforces them with each other which should let you survive or something.

There's a lot of lies she COULD have used, but she doesn't.  Instead she straight up says, "So I need you to get me knocked up so we can have god-babies," which makes it hard for me to, at that point, believe that her motives were all that terrible.  If her motives were absolutely terrible she wouldn't have been as forthright about what she was doing.


EDIT: Also, Ser Jory was a complete tool.  Just throwing that out there because he was mentioned.

Modifié par krylo, 20 février 2010 - 03:22 .

[Maria Caliban]

Whatever excuse she had would have had to work for all PCs and all partners (the PC, Alistair, and Loghain). Sure, if the PC is in a relationship with Morrigan, having sex before the battle makes sense, though she'll have to explain the why they're doing an actual ritual before hand with the candles, ruins on the ground, and chanting/spell casting.

How is she going to convince a femWarden romancing Alistair that Morrigan needs to have sex with him and this sex is going to involve a magical ritual?

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Whatever excuse she had would have had to work for all PCs and all partners (the PC, Alistair, and Loghain). Sure, if the PC is in a relationship with Morrigan, having sex before the battle makes sense, though she'll have to explain the why they're doing an actual ritual before hand with the candles, ruins on the ground, and chanting/spell casting.

How is she going to convince a femWarden romancing Alistair that Morrigan needs to have sex with him and this sex is going to involve a magical ritual?

Well for one thing I don't remember the sex scene you get into there involving runes or candles or anything else?  Unless I'm forgetting something--which is entirely possible--I don't think we have any reason to assume that the magical bits of the dark ritual are actually visible to the PC/Alistair during sex.

That said, as my second paragraph above, "Or she may just lie about the ritual and claim that sexualization was a mainstay of these ancient rituals, and that it allows some kind of silliness/mumbojumbo that would let you live like... I don't know, claiming it temporarily binds your souls and reinforces them with each other which should let you survive or something."

Which would work for all characters.

Modifié par krylo, 20 février 2010 - 11:47 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Originally, the intent was to make the ritual look more like a ritual, complete with ruins, candles, maybe background music from the Omen, ect. But game constraints being what they were, they just went for generic sex.

[Maria Caliban]

Yes, the magical bits are visable. I know, the disconnect between game lore, game play, and cutscenes is annoying. But yes, there really is an entire 'dark ritual' that happens.

No, krylo, it would only work for stupid characters. If Morrigan goes to a female PC and says, "I need to **** your boyfriend during a magic ritual to temporary bind our souls, which will somehow save you." then the dialogue options for the PC should be as follows:

1. Tell me what this is really about Morrigan. [persuade]
2. Are you bull***ing me, Morrigan?
3. That the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
4. No. And keep your hands off my Alistair!

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, the magical bits are visable. I know, the disconnect between game lore, game play, and cutscenes is annoying. But yes, there really is an entire 'dark ritual' that happens.

No, krylo, it would only work for stupid characters. If Morrigan goes to a female PC and says, "I need to **** your boyfriend during a magic ritual to temporary bind our souls, which will somehow save you." then the dialogue options for the PC should be as follows:

1. Tell me what this is really about Morrigan. [persuade]
2. Are you bull***ing me, Morrigan?
3. That the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
4. No. And keep your hands off my Alistair!

So it is MORE believable that Morrigan can trick a GOD into taking up permanent residence in her uterus than it is  that Morrigan can use a blood magic ritual involving sex to bolster/protect a grey warden's soul well enough to protect it from destruction?

Well.

Okay then.

Modifié par krylo, 21 février 2010 - 01:24 .

[draxynnus]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

draxynnus wrote...
Possibly for exactly the reasons she gives - because the Old God is worth preserving. Morrigan may have only contempt for the helpless, but she has a soft spot for powerful beings that get stuck in a bad spot.

Morrigan doesn't have a soft spot.  She does things if they benefit her, preserving an old god benifits her n Flemeth but for completely different reasons.

Multiple times in Origins, she's in favour of releasing beings she considers to have power (Sten, the demon in Honnleath, Jowan (more fool her)) even if she gains no benefit from doing so. She has no sympathy whatsoever for those she considers to be weak (including the child in Honnleath), but she does show consideration to those she considers to be (close to) her equal.

Consider the case of people who don't care about animals but do show consideration to other humans. Morrigan is like that, but she sets the bar even higher.

TSamee wrote...
Regarding the choice in Redcliffe, option three doesn't cost you, per se, but it costs someone else rather dearly. Remember the blacksmith? The old man whose help you enlist to help defend Redcliffe, and whose daughter you promise to save in return? Well, I'm not sure what happens if you pick options one or two, but if you spend time gathering mages at the Circle, she dies. You find no trace of her, and your log presumes that she was killed during Conor's extended period of bloodshed. Upon returning to Redcliffe later, after breaking the news to the old man... well, it's sad. When you talk to him initially, he seems really, really worried, completely snowed under in grief at the prospect of his daughter dying. After finding out she's dead, he hangs himself.

Not if you find her and she gets out before you go off to gather the mages.

(Also, she's not on the top floor. She's in a small room on the main floor, near the stairs that take you into the basement that connects to the courtyard.)

[maxernst]

krylo wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, the magical bits are visable. I know, the disconnect between game lore, game play, and cutscenes is annoying. But yes, there really is an entire 'dark ritual' that happens.

No, krylo, it would only work for stupid characters. If Morrigan goes to a female PC and says, "I need to **** your boyfriend during a magic ritual to temporary bind our souls, which will somehow save you." then the dialogue options for the PC should be as follows:

1. Tell me what this is really about Morrigan. [persuade]
2. Are you bull***ing me, Morrigan?
3. That the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
4. No. And keep your hands off my Alistair!

So it is MORE believable that Morrigan can trick a GOD into taking up permanent residence in her uterus than it is  that Morrigan can use a blood magic ritual involving sex to bolster/protect a grey warden's soul well enough to protect it from destruction?

Well.

Okay then.

It might not be more believable, but where is Morrigan's motivation for wanting to save your life?  It feels plausible enough if you've been romancing her, sure, but remember, some players will get the Dark Ritual offer even when they've driven Morrigan off earlier in the game.

I think Morrigan may realize that (unlike Leliana, for example),, she isn't a practiced liar.  And if you suspect she's lying to you, you'll probably assume her motives are worse than they actually are.

[Maria Caliban]

krylo wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, the magical bits are visable. I know, the disconnect between game lore, game play, and cutscenes is annoying. But yes, there really is an entire 'dark ritual' that happens.

No, krylo, it would only work for stupid characters. If Morrigan goes to a female PC and says, "I need to **** your boyfriend during a magic ritual to temporary bind our souls, which will somehow save you." then the dialogue options for the PC should be as follows:

1. Tell me what this is really about Morrigan. [persuade]
2. Are you bull***ing me, Morrigan?
3. That the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
4. No. And keep your hands off my Alistair!

So it is MORE believable that Morrigan can trick a GOD into taking up permanent residence in her uterus than it is  that Morrigan can use a blood magic ritual involving sex to bolster/protect a grey warden's soul well enough to protect it from destruction?

Well.

Okay then.

Yes.

1. Morrigan gets something out of it if she has access to a god-baby. Not sure what, but I can think of a dozen different things. Saving the Warden doesn't get her much at all.

2. Why would sleeping with *Alistair* or *Loghan* protect the soul of the *Warden?* If it has to be sex, then logically it would be sex with the Warden.

3. We already know that the essence of an old God seeks out a vessel when the archdemon dies. 'Tricking' the god to go to the wrong place is what the Grey Wardens do in the first place.

[errant_knight]

maxernst wrote...

krylo wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, the magical bits are visable. I know, the disconnect between game lore, game play, and cutscenes is annoying. But yes, there really is an entire 'dark ritual' that happens.

No, krylo, it would only work for stupid characters. If Morrigan goes to a female PC and says, "I need to **** your boyfriend during a magic ritual to temporary bind our souls, which will somehow save you." then the dialogue options for the PC should be as follows:

1. Tell me what this is really about Morrigan. [persuade]
2. Are you bull***ing me, Morrigan?
3. That the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
4. No. And keep your hands off my Alistair!

So it is MORE believable that Morrigan can trick a GOD into taking up permanent residence in her uterus than it is  that Morrigan can use a blood magic ritual involving sex to bolster/protect a grey warden's soul well enough to protect it from destruction?

Well.

Okay then.

It might not be more believable, but where is Morrigan's motivation for wanting to save your life?  It feels plausible enough if you've been romancing her, sure, but remember, some players will get the Dark Ritual offer even when they've driven Morrigan off earlier in the game.

I think Morrigan may realize that (unlike Leliana, for example),, she isn't a practiced liar.  And if you suspect she's lying to you, you'll probably assume her motives are worse than they actually are.

Alistair isn't very confident that it will work, and is rather surprised when both he and the PC live. From a roleplaying POV, my PC isn't all that confident, either. On the other hand, it's kind of like Leiliana's vision. The PC believes that Morrigan believes it, whether it's true or not. If she wants to have any hope that everyone will come out of this alive, it's the only option she has, so...there ya go. It doesn't really matter. It's not like there's another option that doesn't involve death.

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...


Yes.

1. Morrigan gets something out of it if she has access to a god-baby. Not sure what, but I can think of a dozen different things. Saving the Warden doesn't get her much at all.

But would it really be stupid to not think like this if you had no idea that there was a dark ritual?

Or would we be having this same discussion on whether there were ulterior motives at all if the dark ritual had never been mentioned.  (Obviously it would have to be information that could be gained in some way, however, to keep it from seeming an ass pull later, but that's beside the point).

Some people don't think Morrigan is a total self-serving ****.  She just acts that way.

There's also plenty of evidence going both ways on that--and multiple pieces of evidence that can be taken both ways.  It still wouldn't be black and white, or anything, BUT it wouldn't be stupid to fall for it.

2. Why would sleeping with *Alistair* or *Loghan* protect the soul of the *Warden?* If it has to be sex, then logically it would be sex with the Warden.

...Because if she slept with them she would tell the warden that they have to be the one to kill the Archdemon.

Didn't think I'd have to spell that one out, honestly.

3. We already know that the essence of an old God seeks out a vessel when the archdemon dies. 'Tricking' the god to go to the wrong place is what the Grey Wardens do in the first place.

But you don't 'trick' it into deciding to forgo hundreds/thousands of darkspawn between you and it, which is, essentially what Morrigan is doing if you don't take her along in the last battle.   Even if you DO, there's still going to be one or more other vessels that are closer to the archdemon than she is (namely the Warden/Alistair, and possible darkspawn considering how the last battle goes).

There's a difference between 'smelling like a darkspawn' and being so alluring that the panicked soul skips over every other, closer, darkspawn in the area and leaps into Morrigan.

Basically the Grey Wardens are EXPLOITING the way the archdemon's soul hopping works.  Morrigan is CHANGING the way the archdemon's soul hopping works.  It's a vastly different thing.

Modifié par krylo, 21 février 2010 - 02:45 .

[grieferbastard]

I don't think Morrigan wants to somehow take over the baby - that's a huge risk, how can she tell if such a being won't just devour her soul like ethereal beef jerky? 

No, I'd say she's raising an apostate Messiah. She's seen Andrastes ashes, she knows that there is some sort of divinity at work behind the Chantry but they've pretty clearly stepped out to use the restroom. One subtle but persistent aspect of Morrigan is her hatred of the Chantry and Circle. If she had one clear and focused enemy that would be it.

She's not just in it to upgrade to First class Uber-Mage - Flemmeth already had that in her way, right? Yet Flemmeth was no true match for the full power of the Chantry and one thing Morrigan certainly isn't cut out for is position number 1 in a cult of personality. She knows that too.

No, she's preparing an Old God, freed of the Taint, to go to war with the Chantry. 'Where is your Maker now?!?' I can just see that line already. An Old God born into the world, raised by Morrigan and set to raise a counter-cult. Tevinter, every mage who resists the idea of the Circle, not to mention the Dalish who've got no love of the Chantry and their effing Exalted Marches. The first untainted God to walk Thedas in a thousand years - giving birth to THAT is what Morrigans ego would want.

Also remember this was originally Flemmeths plan. No Fade spirit is stupid enough to think they could possess an Old God or they'd have done it ages ago. Though without a doubt they've spoken to the dreaming spirits of Old Gods, no question.... perhaps finishing up a deal with a very old friend?

This is a plan to unleash an Old God, sans Taint, upon the world. One very sympathetic to the apostate plight. Betcha betcha.

[draxynnus]

Point of order: I don't think the Dalish would be so eager to join an Old God against the Chantry. Partially for the "once bitten, twice shy" effect, and partially because, bad as the Chantry is, the Tevinter Imperium was even worse, and the Old Gods would be tied up in that.



I suspect they'd be largely inclined to sit out of it or pick what they consider to be the lesser of two evils (which, if I had to bet, would probably be the Chantry unless the Old God could persuade them that recreating the old Tevinter Imperium was not its goal). If they've been granted Ostagar as a new homeland, they'll probably jump whichever way Ferelden jumps as long as the crown of Ferelden proves to be effective in respecting and defending the territories granted to the Dalish.

[krylo]

grieferbastard wrote...

I don't think Morrigan wants to somehow take over the baby - that's a huge risk, how can she tell if such a being won't just devour her soul like ethereal beef jerky?

She also CAN'T and says this straight up in the discussion with her about her mother's immortality.

"That could be quite useful"
"It would.  If you were an ancient abomination."

Strongly suggesting that taking over other bodies isn't even possible for her.  She's not an abomination.  Flemeth is.

No, I'd say she's raising an apostate Messiah. She's seen Andrastes ashes, she knows that there is some sort of divinity at work behind the Chantry but they've pretty clearly stepped out to use the restroom.

Except that if you bring Ohgren along for the Gauntlet he tells you that the whole thing, right down to the 'miraculous' properties of the ashes could very easily be due to lyrium vapors.

Other than THAT your theory is pretty much as solid as anyone else's, however.

Modifié par krylo, 21 février 2010 - 03:01 .

[Daerog]

Why does everyone think that the Old God Baby will go to war with the Chantry? I see no facts that point to this, other than speculation by the Chantry itself. My thoughts were that Morrigan wanted the child because he/she would embody what she finds ideal. Powerful enough to be independent and free from all, plus possibly having unknown magic.

The child is the essence of the old god, but does that make him/her the old god itself? Or is the child just like a reincarnation with limited or no knowledge of his/her past? Will the child even care about the Chantry or other mages at all? Perhaps I'm just thinking about the hero of Baldur's Gate too much when I'm thinking about the OGB.

Also, if Morrigan does raise the child to value freedom, independence, and power, I don't see how he/she would respect anyone who would worship him/her, so I'm not sure about the new cult thing either. The child would definitely be a big help for the possibility of future Blights.

(just my thoughts after skimming the thread, sorry if it repeated other people's ideas too much.)

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 21 février 2010 - 03:15 .

[draxynnus]

Short answer: We don't, but it is a possibility. ;-)

[Thor Rand Al]

Maria Caliban wrote...
What Codex entry is that?

My information doesn't come from a codex (well part of it does, they just don't put all of the information into the codex's, be to long) but it does come from a special collectors edition and it has a lot more information then what the codex gives you.

A lot of the information that I have can be found in the Official Bioware Wiki which is identical to what's in my book n it looks like they keep adding more. Not everything in my book they have in the wiki yet though. And until the Devs say otherwise I'm gonna kinda go by what the official wiki and my book say considering the stuff thats in both are word for word accurate lol

Edit

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 22 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[AlanC9]

The thing about the baby is it's such a goddamn crapshoot. Morrigan's not telling you what the kid's nature, powers or goals would be, and it's not obvious that she really knows.

[errant_knight]

AlanC9 wrote...

The thing about the baby is it's such a goddamn crapshoot. Morrigan's not telling you what the kid's nature, powers or goals would be, and it's not obvious that she really knows.

Yes, if the other options weren't so utterly crappy, it wouldn't seem like a very good idea, that's true.