250 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLion36]

blademaster7 wrote...
Did anyone try rescuing the child from the demon in Honnleath? I freed the child and I got a "Morrigan dissaproves" mesage on my screen. Reloaded, let the demon posses her and got an approval. How could she even have the nerve to talk about freedom?

There are a few odd approval ratings for Morrigan in this game and to be honest I don't know what the person writing the Honnleath encounter was thinking... Morrigan is very anti-demon so that one is clearly a story error... However it might be more the trouble you went through, if you tell the demon you don't deal with her kind from the start the demon will possess the child anyways, you slay the demon and there's no approval loss. 

There's a similar stupid approval loss in RtO where nothing you do the corpse of the king makes her happy... The decision to just leave the body there has to be in line with Morrigans ideas, its the best solution with the least effort.

There are other occasions where Morrigan clearly shows she's in favor of freedom and not just for herself, take Sten and Jowan for example and there is clearly no personal benefit there.

[Relband]

blademaster7 wrote...

You been trying to track that thing down -for who knows how long- only to gift it's power to the most unmoral person in the world.

Well, define morality . Morrigan is not selling elves into slavery, is not swinging the Maker like an oversized hammer over anybody who dares not to admire him, is not treating elven women as ****s to be raped and murdered, is not playing with blood magic, is not running a gilded cage/isolation camp for people wielding a power she does not understand... Selfish, perhaps. Immoral - not really.

[SinYang]

There's a similar stupid approval loss in RtO where nothing you do the corpse of the king makes her happy... The decision to just leave the body there has to be in line with Morrigans ideas, its the best solution with the least effort.

I had assumed she didnt like the "waste" she approves if you feed the body to the wolves. Cailan becomes *useful*. It seems no one approvals of a darkspawn symbol option.

[Herr Uhl]

blademaster7 wrote...

nYshak wrote...
Thats just wrong. Morrigan does not want to ressurrect the archdemon. She wants to preserve the old god that is present WITHIN the archdemon. Thats a completly different thing. Wether good or bad remains to be seen.

Okkaaayyy, she doesn't want to resurrect the Archdemon. She just wants the soul and the power. Still that doesn't change much. You been trying to track that thing down -for who knows how long- only to gift it's power to the most unmoral person in the world.

I wouldn't figure her as the person to start an evil empire though. She might want to plunge the world into Anarchy though.

[TheLion36]

SinYang wrote...
I had assumed she didnt like the "waste" she approves if you feed the body to the wolves. Cailan becomes *useful*. It seems no one approvals of a darkspawn symbol option.

hmmm thought I tried that one too and it did give me a dissaprove, could have been an oddity / bug tho... will try it again! 

Modifié par TheLion36, 12 février 2010 - 01:37 .

[blademaster7]

Relband wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

You been trying to track that thing down -for who knows how long- only to gift it's power to the most unmoral person in the world.

Well, define morality

Are you serious?

Let's see...

*She finds the idea of siding with the Werewolves an go kill innocent elves "fun"

*She want's to preserve the anvil to make golems out of living creatures. Way to give them freedom

*She approves when you accept Caladrious offer to kill the elves you were suppose to FREE because it will give you a constitution point.

*She wants to see the mages die because she doesn't respect them. Having an opinion on something is fine, but wanting innocent people to die just because she doesn't like them is another thing.

And those were just the ones I can remember.

[ejoslin]

Actually, I understand Morrigan's view on the mages. The others . . . if you think defeating the archdemon and the blight comes before individuals, those ideas make sense. All of those things contribute to a stronger army or a stronger character. If the warden loses, doesn't have the strongest force possible, the blight overcomes the land.

[Relband]

blademaster7 wrote...

Relband wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...

You been trying to track that thing down -for who knows how long- only to gift it's power to the most unmoral person in the world.

Well, define morality

Are you serious?

Yes, I am.

Morrigan is extremely practical and utilitarian, focussed on surviving and achieving her goals. The elves are far from innocent, especially if we accept Zathrian's own concept of group responsibility. Golems and the extra constitution point are a means to an end. Mages are not innocent from the point of view of an apostate - Morrigan herself said she would rather die that go and live in the Circle Tower, they are compliant and weak by allowing themselves to be corralled like cattle by the templars, and by allowing nonlicensed mages to be hunted like wild animals.

Morrigan actually is closest in her mindset to a true Grey Warden - do whatever is necessary in order to survive and succeed. Would you consider Grey Wardens immoral? I think that by your definition you should.

[TheLion36]

She's practical, most of those choices end in practical results, golems from the anvil (doesn't have to be freedom limiting as long as they use volunteers), constitution point is also a practical solution and the mages well she does have a point about them being sheep...
Still have to side with the Werewolves, but I wouldn't call those elves innocent, one of them started the plague and the others killed werewolves without mercy.

Morrigans advice throughout the game is often the best, most practical... Helping Redcliffe for example is actually a stupid idea, considering you have an army of darkspawn on your tail you really have no time to waste on village troubles. Luckily the game doesn't really track time otherwise this would result in losing Ferelden.

Sometimes sacrificing something is the best strategic decision...

Modifié par TheLion36, 12 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, I understand Morrigan's view on the mages. The others . . . if you think defeating the archdemon and the blight comes before individuals, those ideas make sense. All of those things contribute to a stronger army or a stronger character. If the warden loses, doesn't have the strongest force possible, the blight overcomes the land.

Yup, most of the things that she approves of comes down to this. Unless it's intimidating revered mothers, which she does for the larfs.

[SinYang]

I love how bioware have written this game, really from different viewpoints anyone can been seen as good or evil, shades of grey. Nothing can be truly labeled. Well apart from characters like Vaughn in city-elf origin who are undoubtly evil from any viewpoint. Morrigan can seem like a saint in comparsion.

Modifié par SinYang, 12 février 2010 - 02:00 .

[Relband]

SinYang wrote...

I love how bioware have written this game, really from different viewpoints anyone can been seen as good or evil, shades of grey. Nothing can be truly labeled. Well apart from characters like Vaughn in city-elf origin who are undoubtly evil from any viewpoint.

Heh, just for the sake of argument - if you think from a purely medieval point of view (ius primae noctis and stuff), you could view him as perfectly in his right in this particular context to have some rough fun with women of an inferior race. It seems very wrong from our perspective and of course from the elven one, but in the gameworld it doesn't have to - the story about the priviledges the chevaliers of Orlay enjoy is a another indication of that.

The problem with Vaughn is that he is an arrogant git rather than a hero in shining armour... So at the end of the day the judgement of his actions will again be personal rather than global.

Modifié par Relband, 12 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[Herr Uhl]

Relband wrote...

SinYang wrote...

I love how bioware have written this game, really from different viewpoints anyone can been seen as good or evil, shades of grey. Nothing can be truly labeled. Well apart from characters like Vaughn in city-elf origin who are undoubtly evil from any viewpoint.

Heh, just for the sake of argument - if you think from a purely medieval point of view (ius primae noctis and stuff), you could view him as perfectly in his right in this particular context to have some rough fun with women of an inferior race. It seems very wrong from our perspective and of course from the elven one, but in the gameworld it doesn't have to - the story about the priviledges the chevaliers of Orlay enjoy is a another indication of that.

The problem with Vaughn is that he is an arrogant git rather than a hero in shining armour... So at the end of the day the judgement of his actions will again be personal rather than global.

Well, does the fact that they are seen as inferior make it any better. And the chevaliers are just as big douchebags. I don't think more people would like him if he wore shining armor.

[gotthammer]

blademaster7 wrote...
Are you serious?

Let's see...

*She finds the idea of siding with the Werewolves an go kill innocent elves "fun"

*She want's to preserve the anvil to make golems out of living creatures. Way to give them freedom

*She approves when you accept Caladrious offer to kill the elves you were suppose to FREE because it will give you a constitution point.

*She wants to see the mages die because she doesn't respect them. Having an opinion on something is fine, but wanting innocent people to die just because she doesn't like them is another thing.

And those were just the ones I can remember.

Innocents? Hehe. "There is no innocence, only varying degrees of guilt." 

[SinYang]

True.
 
Morrigan joining you to battle the blight overrides any selfishness she displays from a global view aswell.
Though you could argue the Ritual was her whole purpose for coming along which leads back to "is it evil or not?".  
Did she really need to join your party to archieve this outcome tho?

Modifié par SinYang, 12 février 2010 - 02:09 .

[Relband]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Well, does the fact that they are seen as inferior make it any better. And the chevaliers are just as big douchebags. I don't think more people would like him if he wore shining armor.

You see him in the origin story from the elven perspective only. How is he viewed by the humans of Denerim? - his two noble companions have no problem with his actions. His guards are equally happy to treat the elves the same way. Even the Chantry sister at the wedding limits her protestations to a weak "but this is a wedding, milord", not even a little "the Knight-Commander will not like this, milord", which could go a long way. And from the conversation with another cousing of the PC (Nessa?) we learn than a female elf working for the army at Ostagar should expect to be treated likewise.

I am not saying raping elves of any sex is ok from our perspective. However if you're into immersion, you cannot fail to notice elves are way inferior to humans in Ferelden. Ah, even Leliana turns out to be as prejudiced as anybody else, although she at least manages to realise that and change her way of thinking about elves. So from the point of view of a human in Ferelden, Vaughn's actions in the Alienage were nothing out of the ordinary.

Modifié par Relband, 12 février 2010 - 02:14 .

[ejoslin]

SinYang wrote...

True.
 
Morrigan joining you to battle the blight overrides any selfishness she displays from a global view aswell.
Though you could argue the Ritual was her whole purpose for coming along which leads back to "is it evil or not?".  
Did she really need to join your party to archieve this outcome tho?

Does she even need to tell the male warden the purpose of the ritual?  If she were truly evil and in a full romance with the male warden, why would she mention it at all rather than just having a very special last night before the fight time?  You can't just label Morrigan and her actions; she's far too complex.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[Relband]

ejoslin wrote...

Does she even need to tell the male warden the purpose of the ritual?  If she were truly evil and in a full romance with the male warden, why would she mention it at all rather than just having a very special last night before the fight time?

!That's an excellent point, milady! Methinks my next playthrough will at last see my hero enjoying the spoils of victory in flesh rather than from the Maker's embrace.

[blademaster7]

So you guys just proved that she's practical and values power. How does that make her moral by any means? Who's to say that she won't use the child for her own power-hungry ambitions?

The Dark Ritual is a method of sparing your life, I get it. But you can't just sit back and relax knowing that the soul of and Old God is in good hands, because frankly it isn't(in my opinion at least).

Relband wrote...
Morrigan actually is closest in her mindset to a true Grey Warden - do whatever is necessary in order to survive and succeed. Would you consider Grey Wardens immoral? I think that by your definition you should.

First of all I don't remember Alistair approving all those things.

Grey Wardens sacrifice everything to stop the blight. Taking part in a fatal Joining Ritual, reducing their life span and so many other things you could write a book(oh wait there is one already). They are unmoral in most cases yes, but in the end they're doing it for the greater good.

What sacrifice did Morrigan ever did? Did she ever put her life at stake for the sake of helping others? Please don't compare Morrigan to the Grey Wardens. Just because they have one thing in common doesn't make them the same.

[Herr Uhl]

Relband wrote...
You see him in the origin story from the elven perspective only. How is he viewed by the humans of Denerim? - his two noble companions have no problem with his actions. His guards are equally happy to treat the elves the same way. Even the Chantry sister at the wedding limits her protestations to a weak "but this is a wedding, milord", not even a little "the Knight-Commander will not like this, milord", which could go a long way. And from the conversation with another cousing of the PC (Nessa?) we learn than a female elf working for the army at Ostagar should expect to be treated likewise.

So, since he is in power, that makes it better? People using power has always been around, the elves and chantry priestess are resigned to it, what are they gonna do about it? Start an uprising that would result in a likely purge? The guards are either on his payroll, or they just dislike elves. Of course it's not wrong in his eyes, he is the instigator, his buds are his buds for a reason.

Relband wrote...
I am not saying raping elves of any sex is ok from our perspective. However if you're into immersion, you cannot fail to notice elves are way inferior to humans in Ferelden. Ah, even Leliana turns out to be as prejudiced as anybody else, although she at least manages to realise that and change her way of thinking about elves. So from the point of view of a human in Ferelden, Vaughn's actions in the Alienage were nothing out of the ordinary.

Leliana says that she thinks that the elves that are slaves in Orlais has it better, which may be a fact. Slaves had it better than the free-workers until after the industrialization as a rule. That is our perspective that says that she is prejudiced, she was more or less a slave during her childhood.

[Relband]

Once again, you cannot measure what is clearly a medieval-like society by contemporary standards. Morality is defined by the society and changes together with it.

For Ferelden Vaughn's actions are definitely not unacceptable.

Modifié par Relband, 12 février 2010 - 02:27 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I don't think that the ritual is good or evil, personally. Because the old gods weren't really good or evil. Whatever they were. We only have the Chantry take on things, and I do not believe much of that.



However, i can't really see the demon-child becoming a major problem in the future. Morrigan certainly shows no interest in taking over the world or unleashing havoc. The ritual will benefit her, certainly, and she will gain pwoer because of it. However, whatever she does with this power, i doubt it is really going to turn out bad for ferelden, even Thedas.

[Pubknight]

ejoslin wrote...

Does she even need to tell the male warden the purpose of the ritual?  If she were truly evil and in a full romance with the male warden, why would she mention it at all rather than just having a very special last night before the fight time?  You can't just label Morrigan and her actions; she's far too complex.

That's an interesting point.
On this playthrough my character has had a romance with Morrigan, and that has resulted in a few tent visits.  Now all of a sudden she objects strongly to that choice.  I've read that she may not go to your tent if she is in love with you... but I don't know.   The point is, when she approaches me for the ritual, my character is going to say no.  Even if she never explained the ritual.  The base reason would be that she had stopped display physical interest in him, despite carrying on like she cares for him, and now all of a sudden she does have 'physical interest' again?
I feel it would really make my character suspect her motives and question things.
But I could be reading too much in to it.  Whenever I 'kiss her' in camp, I always say, "Hmm, her eyes are open... I think she's playing me."
Could be exactly why they did things the way they did... and you won't really know until perhaps DA2 on whether it was a good or poor decision.
She is my favorite written character.

[TheLion36]

blademaster7 wrote...
The Dark Ritual is a method of sparing your life, I get it. But you can't just sit back and relax knowing that the soul of and Old God is in good hands, because frankly it isn't(in my opinion at least).

I could imagine it being in worse hands, I'm still not sure about Flemeth but Morrigan never seemed evil to me and she never made deals with demons (in contrast to Flemeth who did in the past). Considering Morrigan learned something from our trip I think she might raise the child to be quite okay... Unless of course she has a dark intent with the child but I'm not quite so sure about that yet...

blademaster7 wrote...
What sacrifice did Morrigan ever did? Did she ever put her life at stake for the sake of helping others? Please don't compare Morrigan to the Grey Wardens. Just because they have one thing in common doesn't make them the same.

She went with the warden to save the world, yes she got something out of it, but so did our gray warden... We got to live because we became a warden (In most of the origin stories we don't exactly become a warden because we always dreamed of it) and from Morrigans ritual we saved our own lives... She also made some great sacrifices in the end, she had to abandon her good friend (first and only friend) and even more of a sacrifice if you romanced her she leaves her lover for something that is apparantly superbly important, probably even bigger than just her, which me it always seems something more important than just being more powerful... She also sacrificed a form of freedom, a child means she's not independant anymore, the child depends on her and therefore she's independant no longer.

Pubknight wrote...
The base reason would be that she had stopped display physical interest in him, despite carrying on like she cares for him, and now all of a sudden she does have 'physical interest' again?

I've always felt like she didn't want to sleep with you anymore because she's scared of her love (don't forget she knows she will have to leave you eventually). If she just wanted the child and was playing the warden, then why wouldn't she just sleep with him all the time, it would have been a lot less suspicious and she could have just gotten pregnant using the ritual secretly, she could call it a sexual game for example...
I think her refusal to sleep with you shows she really cares... If you romance her and do the ritual and ask her at the gates if she got what she came for she will state something like: "I have and some things I didn't plan for".
I believe she really cared for the warden and felt scared and perhaps wanted to show clearly she didn't use him by not sleeping with him anymore until the ritual or she tried to distance herself from him to make it easier what she had to do, but failed to do so...

Modifié par TheLion36, 12 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[maxernst]

I doubt very much that the Dark Ritual will be a good thing because it would be out of keeping with the game's logic. One overriding theme that comes up in DA:O over and over again is that you don't get anything for free--there are risks or costs asociated with every exercise of power or choice that you make. Sometimes it forces this in unreasonable ways. For example, I can't see any reason why Loghain is the only suitable candidate in all of Ferelden to be a Grey Warden, or even why you should have to limit yourself to only one new recruit. However, if the player knew that a Grey Warden has to die to kill the archdemon, well, sacrificing Loghain's a great deal more attractive than sacrificing oneself or (for all but the extreme haters) Alistair. So they poison that choice by forcing you to choose between Alistair and Loghain.



So I think there must be a serious downside to the Dark Ritual. If the Dark Ritual actual accomplishes something which is truly beneficial, it's a bit of a slap in the face to those who sacrificed their character's life. At best, I'm guessing the old god is a bit of an X-factor, capable of terrible destruction but not necessarily predestined for it.



As to Morrigan, I don't see any compelling reason to think she acts selflessly. She might be perfectly willing to unleash something that would be terrible for other people in a quest for greater power. Simply helping to stop the blight isn't enough for me to call her selfless--she has to live in the world too, and the blight is bad for everybody. Do you really think wicked people only kill good people, never each other? Admittedly, I can't point my finger any particularly evil action even in her past...one can hardly blame her for killing Templars. But I'd say her motives are murky at best, and her avowed philosophy precludes altruism.



"You haven't been merely pretending to be wicked and being good all the time, have you? That would be hypocrisy!" (from the Oscar Wilde, the Importance of Being Earnest)