250 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Relband wrote...

Once again, you cannot measure what is clearly a medieval-like society by contemporary standards. Morality is defined by the society and changes together with it.

For Ferelden Vaughn's actions are definitely not unacceptable.

You are measuring it from *his* moral standards. If the standards of those in power is the same as that of everybody else in contemporary society, there would be no rebellions. That he collects like-minded people to help him does not make kidnapping and raping, or murdering, of elves socially accepted. The nobles were appalled at Loghain selling elves as slaves, so I think Vaughn isn't the model for Fereldan morality.

[Relband]

blademaster7 wrote...
First of all I don't remember Alistair approving all those things.

That's because he's a wimp until hardened, and that's the weak name for what he is. He is afraid of responsibility, he's perfectly happy to let someone else make decisions for him, even if that someone has been a Warden for 48 hours; so pontificating about these decisions is pathetic, really (killing Connor is a perfect example - in Redcliffe he agrees this is the safest course of action, but then in camp he goes mental on the Warden). Alistair is definitely not a true Gray Warden.

blademaster7 wrote...
What sacrifice did Morrigan ever did? Did she ever put her life at stake for the sake of helping others? Please don't compare Morrigan to the Grey Wardens. Just because they have one thing in common doesn't make them the same.

What sacrifice does the PC Warden do before the final battle (out of her/his own will, that is)?

And in the final battle Morrigan sacrifices a lot, either way, but especially through the ritual. Her freedom, her love, her friendship - true, this is a price she has not expected she would pay, but that does not make the sacrifice less painful. That's a choice of the same calibre the Warden makes - save her love's/friend's life only never to see them again, or watch them die.

[Silensfurtim]

LOL



The Ultimate "Dark Ritual Debate Thread" is located in this 47 page, 1000+ post thread:



http://social.biowar...47/index/350273

[Relband]

Herr Uhl wrote...
The nobles were appalled at Loghain selling elves as slaves, so I think Vaughn isn't the model for Fereldan morality.

That they are opposed to slavery does not mean they are opposed to treating elves they way they are treated. The city elf origin story gives enough hints at how humans treat and view elves in Ferelden.

[SinYang]

However, if the player knew that a Grey Warden has to die to kill the archdemon, well, sacrificing Loghain's a great deal more attractive than sacrificing oneself or (for all but the extreme haters) Alistair. So they poison that choice by forcing you to choose between Alistair and Loghain

The very Grey warden motto notes vigilance in peace, a GW would want to create more wardens regardless of plot points to come. Given Riordan's sugguestion it makes perfect sense even if Alistair disagrees. It does not kill Alistair to disagree, he is still a warden in/out of the party by blood. On other hand killing your sugguestion from Riordan (another warden) infront of the queen, you tell me? how does this help stop the coming blight?

What I love about Alistair is his comments after loghain has slain the archdemon, justice was served even if it didnt go *his* way. Viewing those allowed me to respect him again as a character.

Sorry for OT-ness,

Relband wrote...
Alistair is definitely not a true Gray Warden.

I couldnt agree more. Hes like Cailan but im not saying thats a bad thing. Its just not a good position to take dealing with the blight threat.

Modifié par SinYang, 12 février 2010 - 06:13 .

[TheLion36]

maxernst wrote...
I doubt very much that the Dark Ritual will be a good thing because it would be out of keeping with the game's logic. One overriding theme that comes up in DA:O over and over again is that you don't get anything for free--there are risks or costs asociated with every exercise of power or choice that you make.

There are a lot of decisions you can make that should not come for free, like saving Redcliffe and going to the Mages Tower to save Connor and Isolde... These are decisions that in this logic wouldn't have come for free but they did. However another theme that pops up is that good decisions often have bad results and that bad/evil decisions often give the most social/good results... In that logic the dark ritual could end up being good.

Modifié par TheLion36, 12 février 2010 - 03:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Relband wrote...

Once again, you cannot measure what is clearly a medieval-like society by contemporary standards. Morality is defined by the society and changes together with it.

For Ferelden Vaughn's actions are definitely not unacceptable.

I disagree. Even in ferelden, vaughn's actions would not be acceptable. It is really a matter of level of unacceptable, the level and severity of his crime is the key. The nobility and population probably think he is an immoral, low life pig. However, because elves are second class citizens and generally considered to be weak and inferior, the level of unacceptability would be lower than in other situations.

The situation of the elves is similar to other ethnic minorities in history who were considered outsiders or lesser beings. It was still a crime under normal circumstances to rape, murder, and steal from them, however, the law would be far less eager or motivated to prosecute offenders and would often give them lesser sentances for behaving in appropriately. The same, I think, hold's for Vaughn's behavior.

[Relband]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Relband wrote...

Once again, you cannot measure what is clearly a medieval-like society by contemporary standards. Morality is defined by the society and changes together with it.

For Ferelden Vaughn's actions are definitely not unacceptable.

I disagree. Even in ferelden, vaughn's actions would not be acceptable. It is really a matter of level of unacceptable, the level and severity of his crime is the key. The nobility and population probably think he is an immoral, low life pig. However, because elves are second class citizens and generally considered to be weak and inferior, the level of unacceptability would be lower than in other situations.

The situation of the elves is similar to other ethnic minorities in history who were considered outsiders or lesser beings. It was still a crime under normal circumstances to rape, murder, and steal from them, however, the law would be far less eager or motivated to prosecute offenders and would often give them lesser sentances for behaving in appropriately. The same, I think, hold's for Vaughn's behavior.

I do not want to further derail the topic, but I have to disagree; Alienages, the ban on free movement and settlement, everpresent abuse - all this sounds to me much more serious than just any minority mistreatment.

Anyway, back to the Dark Ritual...

[maxernst]

TheLion36 wrote...

maxernst wrote...
I doubt very much that the Dark Ritual will be a good thing because it would be out of keeping with the game's logic. One overriding theme that comes up in DA:O over and over again is that you don't get anything for free--there are risks or costs asociated with every exercise of power or choice that you make.

There are a lot of decisions you can make that should not come for free, like saving Redcliffe and going to the Mages Tower to save Connor and Isolde... These are decisions that in this logic wouldn't have come for free but they did. However another theme that pops up is that good decisions often have bad results and that bad/evil decisions often give the most social/good results... In that logic the dark ritual could end up being good.

Saving Redcliffe and going to the mage's tower don't come for free, though--you have to fight for those (you may have even had to reload!).  They are potentially disastrous decisions.

[Relband]

maxernst wrote...
Saving Redcliffe and going to the mage's tower don't come for free, though--you have to fight for those (you may have even had to reload!).  They are potentially disastrous decisions.

What was meant (probably) is that in real life you would sometimes have a path of events when upon returning to Redcliffe with the mages you would find dead bodies of Isolde, Teagan, Eamonn and everybody else in the castle and in the village, and no trace of demon-possessed Connor. This never happens, thus the optimal approach to the Redcliffe crisis does not incur any penalties on the PC.

[draxynnus]

Relband wrote...

Chantry is guilty of exactly the same, the Exalted March against the Dales is Chantry's work; I wouldn't be much surprised to find out that the earlier stuff is a post factum propaganda (see, we destroyed the Dales, but at least we did not enslave the elves like the evil Tevinter Imperium, we merely slaughtered them. Are we not merciful!?) And Chantry still treats elves like dirt, only one sister in Denerim does not find visiting the Alienage below her dignity.

Except that it's the elves that say the Tevinter Imperium destroyed Arlathan and enslaved their entire race for so long they've lost most of their history. What the Chantry did genuinely wasn't as bad - they basically turned all the elves into refugees, but didn't turn the race into slaves en masse.

Not to say that what the Chantry did could be excused, but it does mean we have more than one source on the Imperium.

It's also worth noting that we still have a remnant of the Tevinter Imperium, and what contact we've had with it involves...slavery and blood magic.

blademaster7 wrote...

Unfortunately however, the story in this game goes far beyond gameplay. Your sole mission from the beginning is to kill the Archdemon, and Morrigan want's to resurrect it; just like that. No explanation of what's she wants it for, nothing. I didn't buy her "the child will represent freedom" BS. Not after seeing what she approves and hearing her views about love and compassion.

Did anyone try rescuing the child from the demon in Honnleath? I freed the child and I got a "Morrigan dissaproves" mesage on my screen. Reloaded, let the demon posses her and got an approval. How could she even have the nerve to talk about freedom?

Actually, Morrigan is fairly consistent...

...It's just that she only cares about the freedom of beings she considers more-or-less equal. The child? Lesser being, beneath her notice, and if the child wants to be posessed, who is she to argue? The demon, on the other hand? That's the one who's freedom she values - the demon has power. So given a choice between freeing the child and the demon, she'll pick the demon.

This extends to most of her interactions. Helpless common-folk she simply doesn't care about - she holds them in contempt. However, if someone impresses her, she'll bat for them. We see this with Sten, even Jowan (obviously mistaking "blood mage" for "powerful"). And we may be seeing it with Urthemiel.

TheLion36 wrote...

Morrigans advice throughout the game is often the best, most practical... Helping Redcliffe for example is actually a stupid idea, considering you have an army of darkspawn on your tail you really have no time to waste on village troubles. Luckily the game doesn't really track time otherwise this would result in losing Ferelden.

Actually, I'd say this is the exact opposite. You're trying to recruit Arl Eamon to your cause, and you probably want his forces to be as strong as possible - spending one evening and night out of a canonical year (it's mentioned at some point) to help defend his holdings so he'll be stronger when he's revived makes both diplomatic and military sense.

Modifié par draxynnus, 12 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[spottyblanket]

I think its actullay something that will crop up in another sequel that will turn the world upside down, be the next big bad...or big good?

[Elfseeker]

you let someone with the skill, knowledge and inclination take on the task of 'cleansing' an old god. the spirit of one, anyway. Considering the connections we've formed about the land during our quest, how difficult would it be to gather up the forces to scour the land for a witch and her tyke?



Of course, she can hardly be expected to -re-taint it(angels are -so- much easier to control, after all) and barring some pretty unlikely options involving Morrigan enjoying her spawn in some out-of-the-way hideyhole forevermore, I reckon we'll hear of them again, somewhere down the road...



And 'most immoral person'? while that can probably be discussed, I'd rather go with lack of morals than 'out to cause pain'. just some perspective. Morrigan might just do good with it, her insistence on doing things on her own notwithstanding. it's Flemeth getting involved that has -me- bothered, cause that is one I don't know at all...I know I learn we can get to kill her? Hohum. worth trying out just to see what happens, I guess...

[TheLion36]

draxynnus wrote...
You're trying to recruit Arl Eamon to your cause, and you probably want his forces to be as strong as possible - spending one evening and night out of a canonical year (it's mentioned at some point) to help defend his holdings so he'll be stronger when he's revived makes both diplomatic and military sense.

This will depend on the time it takes to get from Lothering to Redcliffe, unfortunately time isn't really a constant in this game so its hard to measure. I can't remember seeing a mention of your journey taking a year but I'll take your word for it and it also makes sense (there's a lot to do for the warden), I do wonder however if they implemented this year decision later because everyone seems to be in a big rush at some points in the game almost as if you only have 10 days to solve everything and this seems especially true at the beginning of the game.
If there is time then you're right its a strategically valid solution.

Relband wrote...
What was meant (probably) is that in real life you would sometimes have a path of events when upon returning to Redcliffe with the mages you would find dead bodies of Isolde, Teagan, Eamonn and everybody else in the castle and in the village, and no trace of demon-possessed Connor. This never happens, thus the optimal approach to the Redcliffe crisis does not incur any penalties on the PC.

That was exactly what I meant. We might also have to defend our old god baby at some point but I wouldn't really consider that a price to pay.

spottyblanket wrote...
I think its actullay something that will crop up in another sequel that will turn the world upside down, be the next big bad...or big good?

This could pose a problem from a storyline perspective, mainly because the ritual is a choice... So unless Morrigan finds another way of getting the same thing she's after without the ritual it can only be a side topic.

Modifié par TheLion36, 12 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[spottyblanket]

Oh true, but in the new expansion you can copy over save data and so forth. Besides, you know Morrigan--if she wants it so bad she will get it one way or the other. If you don't choose the ritual, it'll just be a surprise later on. She may go outside Ferladan to find her 'warden'

[maxernst]

draxynnus wrote...

TheLion36 wrote...

Morrigans advice throughout the game is often the best, most practical... Helping Redcliffe for example is actually a stupid idea, considering you have an army of darkspawn on your tail you really have no time to waste on village troubles. Luckily the game doesn't really track time otherwise this would result in losing Ferelden.

Actually, I'd say this is the exact opposite. You're trying to recruit Arl Eamon to your cause, and you probably want his forces to be as strong as possible - spending one evening and night out of a canonical year (it's mentioned at some point) to help defend his holdings so he'll be stronger when he's revived makes both diplomatic and military sense.

I agree with this.  I think a factor in Redcliffe may be that Morrigan probably disapproved of going there at all--it's Alistair's idea, after all, and we don't have any treaties commanding their allegiance.  But at the Circle, Morrigan is clearly being swayed by her feelings toward the circle mages, not practicality.  The assistance of the circle mages will be of benefit in fighting the blight.

[TheLion36]

spottyblanket wrote...
Oh true, but in the new expansion you can copy over save data and so forth. Besides, you know Morrigan--if she wants it so bad she will get it one way or the other. If you don't choose the ritual, it'll just be a surprise later on. She may go outside Ferladan to find her 'warden'

Could be and there are still old gods left somewhere, the decision feels to big and too forced to be this light weighted to me... I still think this will lead to 2 very different paths at some point. Perhaps its even a trap, if you love Morrigan you might do the ritual and it might make her evil so you have to slay her eventually, if you didn't do the ritual when you loved her she might be back at some point as a companion telling you how wrong you where... I certainly hope this won't be the case however since I'm still hoping my character and Morrigan can live happily ever after together at some point.  *Wishful thinking I know*

[nYshak]

The fact that we can argue all day long about if Morrigan is evil or not shows how complex her character actually is. To me all of the major plot decisions can be seen by either good or evil.



Nature of the Beast:

Lift the Curse - Do the werewolves deserve that after what they did to the humans? It seems so, but there is this part in the dialoge with Zathrian where he asks what you would have done if you held your dead daughter in your hands. Hmmm.

Kill all the elves? One might argue that at least Zathrian deserves it, plus the werewolves could make for great allies agains the Darkspawn and thus save many lives.

Kill the werewolves? Elves are good allies, but at least Zathrian may deserve to die. And haven't the wolves suffered enough?



Urn of Sacred Ashes:

To defile or not defile....well....seems kinda straight forward but why should it be an evil act to defile the ashes for a dalish elf who does not believe in the maker in the first place? Plus, you can save Arl Eamon and his armies AND gain the support of the Cult of Andraste to defeat the darkspawn.



Anvil of the Void:

Preserving the anvil means golems. Golems mean dead darkspawn. Win win. IF the dwarves use volunteers only. If they do they might also be able to regain their lost territory. Nothing comes without a price. But what IF they don't stop at volunteers. Would that still be worth it?

Destroying the anvil: No golems. Good if the dwarves cannot be trusted. But what if they could? You destroy the anvil and thus any means of creating golems and thus doom the dwarves as a race who have been losing this war since the golems disappeared.



Circle Tower:

Saving the mages seems good yes? Why kill all the innocent mages just to be sure there are no blood mages left within their numbers. But what if there are? How much havoc could they create?

Kill the mages: The above upside down. You kill innocents for sure but at the same time make sure possibly none other comes to harm.



Morrigan just has her own personal view on things. One might disagree with her but not because he or she really knows what the "good" option would have been. At least to me, there are none.

[TheLion36]

maxernst wrote...
I agree with this.  I think a factor in Redcliffe may be that Morrigan probably disapproved of going there at all--it's Alistair's idea, after all, and we don't have any treaties commanding their allegiance.  But at the Circle, Morrigan is clearly being swayed by her feelings toward the circle mages, not practicality.  The assistance of the circle mages will be of benefit in fighting the blight.

You're right about the mages tower... She doesn't deny it either!  My good wardens always just tell her that she could have ended up there herself and take the dissaproval and make it up again in the tent later on.
My evil mage however decided that Wynne was indeed a complaining school teacher and that the mages tower was inhabited only by mindless sheep who even wanted to tranquil her good friend Jowan, so she decided Morrigans advice was sound...
But yeah the mages tower is one of the major advices she gives you based on her own feelings...

[Barbarossa2010]

TheLion36 wrote...
... I still think this will lead to 2 very different paths at some point. Perhaps its even a trap, if you love Morrigan you might do the ritual and it might make her evil so you have to slay her eventually, if you didn't do the ritual when you loved her she might be back at some point as a companion telling you how wrong you where... I certainly hope this won't be the case however since I'm still hoping my character and Morrigan can live happily ever after together at some point.  *Wishful thinking I know*

Exactly.  After getting over the shock of her cold and calculated offer (having romanced her), the Grey Warden part of me came out, and realistically to remain in character, my Warden, had he been allowed, would have interrogated her thoroughly.  After all, she wanted to attract the "essence" of the very thing he exists to destroy.

Plot wise she was to remain ambiguous and your Warden was to remain silent for all intents and purposes.  In character, a true Warden (who pragamatically should assume the worst until further is known) would have threatened her to come clean as to her intent, or be forced to slay her to prevent a highly probable disaster (as far as he knows) from occurring and the Wardens being complicit in something diametrically opposed to their purpose.   (It is not germane to the subject here as to whether Morrigan was stronger or faster than your character).

To see the forced nature of the Ritual for a Grey Warden, does anyone really think Duncan or Riordan would do have done it with so little information regarding her intent?  I acknowledge that my Warden was yound and new to the Taint, but Wardens are obligated to end Blights (and certainly not make them worse) by whatever means necessary.  She should have had no real expectation that you would acquiesce so passively if you were anything even resembling a Grey Warden. 

I can envision no reason for her silence, except that what she intended would have been so unacceptable to you that you've would never do it.   Once you turn her down, if her intentions were pure, there was no reason to remain silent any longer.  It would have at least been another opportunity for her to get what she wanted.  As it was, if you refused, she left and she couldn't have figured out another way to get her demon baby, because your Warden does, in fact, die.  The sequel will have to accomodate both choices. 

But there is something hanging out there (other than the conflicting clues we have that do little more than breed fun but futile speculation) that we are completely unaware of that will later tell us of her intent with the child and the associated consequences. 

BTW, if you didn't do the ritual wouldn't you be interred at Weisshaupt now?  She would have to have some powerful magic indeed to tell you how wrong you were.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 12 février 2010 - 05:02 .

[TheLion36]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I can envision no reason for her silence, except that what she intended would have been so unacceptable to you that you've would never do it.   Once you turn her down, if her intentions were pure, there was no reason to remain silent any longer.  It would have at least been another opportunity for her to get what she wanted.  As it was, if you refused, she left and she couldn't have figured out another way to get her demon baby, because your Warden does, in fact, die.  The sequel will have to accomodate both choices.

There might be good reason for her silence and her leaving, however they are pure speculation... Perhaps she was silent for some other reason, perhaps if you knew you wanted to come with her and protect her, something she might not be able to accomodate. I've always felt the ritual was very important to her, more than just to her almost like it was a destiny for her, something that couldn't be avoided... If you say no to her you block her from executing her destiny, I'm sure if she would have done something to prevent us from getting to the Archdemon and stopping the blight we would have either killed or asked her to leave... She might also not want to tell us because of her survival instinct or because the childs true meaning must remain a secret and therefor the less people know the better and you can't have less people knowing than just her.
Like I said however its pure speculation, the thing I do know when you romance her is that even when she's acting cold and distant during the ritual talk, you can break through it on a few occasions. By telling her that you love her for example you can tell she struggles and nearly gives in but then reclaims herself after stating: "Dont cloud the issue". She also mentions that staying with you is very tempting... Someone once mentioned on a thread that they had they opinion Morrigan was hardening herself during the ritual talk and I think they might be right... Morrigan seems to have a strong sense of duty during that talk, to me it never seemed like she was chasing after more power for herself, but that there is more to it than that...

From a story perspective, if she would have opened up to us there, there wouldn't have been any discussions on the forums and Morrigans story would have been an open book.

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
BTW, if you didn't do the ritual wouldn't you be interred at Weisshaupt now?  She would have to have some powerful magic indeed to tell you how wrong you were.

Well you could have had someone else make the sacrifice... I also noted I miswrote that sentence, I meant to say that if you didn't do the ritual she might appear again someday to tell you SHE was wrong, hence the trap situation. (picking the one that is obvious in favor of love would end up ruining her and the one that is hard on the relationship saves her).

Modifié par TheLion36, 12 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[blademaster7]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
I can envision no reason for her silence, except that what she intended would have been so unacceptable to you that you've would never do it.   Once you turn her down, if her intentions were pure, there was no reason to remain silent any longer.  It would have at least been another opportunity for her to get what she wanted.  As it was, if you refused, she left and she couldn't have figured out another way to get her demon baby, because your Warden does, in fact, die.  The sequel will have to accomodate both choices. 

Thank you. Your post is brilliant as usual but I just quoted the best part.

You summarized the reasons I hate the ritual so much. The part where you can't interrogate her to come out clean is the worst part in the game for me. Seriously. It's probably the most important decision you have to make in the game and instead of getting some damn straight answers you get nothing but a broken keyboard.

I tried to be optimistic about Morrigan's plan and I really hope she has pure intentions, but I just can't keep telling my self that. Not without getting my answers first.

The writers didn't want to reveal anything, I get it, I get it.... but for me it was a slap to the face after spending so many hours, only to be blocked out of the most important information. I went ahead and did the ritual the first time, thinking to my self  "ok she does seem to care, maybe she'll tell me later". But no, the next thing you know is the epilogue card mocking you. 60+ hours weren't enough apparently, you need to wait for the next installment.

[nYshak]

Thats the problem with cliffhangers blade. I guess you would not be able to watch an episode of 24 either

Seriously though, the information Morrigan gives you is enough. Enough in that, no matter how much you could pry from her, the decision the Warden has to make is still one under uncertainty. If Morrigan were to tell the Warden lets say, 100 quick facts about what she intents and what she will do with the child she could simply lie. The notion of interrogating Morrigan in that situation is unrealistic. She does not want to tell the Warden and he / she has no way of getting the information.

Modifié par nYshak, 12 février 2010 - 05:59 .

[errant_knight]

This thread as been drifting off topic since the beginning, but now it's gone somewhere else entirely. Discussion of Morrigan's motivations are very interesting but aren't the topic I proposed. Discussion of the roles of ethical dilemas in the game isn't the topic, either. Thoughts about whether the dark ritual should be in the game at all is totally not the topic....

The topic: Might the preservation of the old god turn out to be a good thing regardless of motivations? If so, why? Might the grey wardens have been subject to manipulation resulting in them doing something that wasn't a good thing although it was done for right reasons? If so, how and by whom? I don't mind some digression, but not to the point that the topic isn't even involved.

Modifié par errant_knight, 12 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[maxernst]

I'm slightly reminded of the Fionavar tapestry. One of the main characters, Jennifer, is raped by Rakoth Maugrim (essentially the devil in Fionavar) and bears his child. She insists (against the advice of practically everyone) that the child must be free to choose its own path, for good or for ill. I could conceive of this child being similar.



Is it possible that Morrigan herself doesn't really know what the consequences are going to be?