250 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

maxernst wrote...

I'm slightly reminded of the Fionavar tapestry. One of the main characters, Jennifer, is raped by Rakoth Maugrim (essentially the devil in Fionavar) and bears his child. She insists (against the advice of practically everyone) that the child must be free to choose its own path, for good or for ill. I could conceive of this child being similar.

Is it possible that Morrigan herself doesn't really know what the consequences are going to be?

I think it is. She might very well think that the child might prove useful, and that preserving an old god is just a good idea generally. She clearly has a plan of some kind, but it may not include any knowledge of end result. Now, Flemeth may have known more. In fact it seems likely.

maxernst wrote...

I doubt very much that the Dark Ritual will be a good thing because it would be out of keeping with the game's logic. One overriding theme that comes up in DA:O over and over again is that you don't get anything for free--there are risks or costs asociated with every exercise of power or choice that you make. [...] 

I know what you're saying here, but resullts aren't always predictable. Sometimes you make what seems to be a dangerous choice, and things work out well. Sometimes you do something that seems harmless, and later find out that it may have started a war. One of the things that makes me think that this won't be uniformly bad, is that it seems so bad.

[Barbarossa2010]

TheLion36 wrote...

Like I said however its pure speculation, the thing I do know when you romance her is that even when she's acting cold and distant during the ritual talk, you can break through it on a few occasions. By telling her that you love her for example you can tell she struggles and nearly gives in but then reclaims herself after stating: "Dont cloud the issue". She also mentions that staying with you is very tempting... Someone once mentioned on a thread that they had they opinion Morrigan was hardening herself during the ritual talk and I think they might be right...
From a story perspective, if she would have opened up to us there, there wouldn't have been any discussions on the forums and Morrigans story would have been an open book.

I agree, her dialogues, post-Ritual, at the Gates and beyond are revealing about her.  While my Warden's inclination was to assume the worst (but he did do the Ritual anyway being the love struck schmuck he was  ) and think her nothing but the reverted Swamp Witch, I believe it is very possible that he was wrong.  It is apparent with certain dialogue threads that she definitely struggles; the "you have no idea how tempting it is" and  the "I will never forget you my love" dialgoues were very revealling I have to admit. 

No doubts in her presentation of caring about you in all honesty.  Of course it is also very possible that her intentions are less than acceptable to my Warden.  We simply cannot know at this point.  We do know that Morrigan is a manipulator, but we're hoping in this case she is not and that we did make a difference with her.  It is very possible to that her intentions are pure and the actual results of the coupling take a turn for the worse.  It will be interesting to see how this is resolved for the many Male Wardens who romanced her and were bitten hard and the many who seem completely indifferent, neutral or friendly with her who may or may not have elected for the Ritual.

BTW, as critical as I am of this particular part of the story, I know we are dealing with something the plot depends on, and realize that if my Warden were allowed to stay "in character," there would be no heavy handed plot hook that has us literally waiting on edge to see what happens next.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 12 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[Curlain]

I think the results of the Dark Ritual will be quite complicated, and I don't think it will have either solely positive or negative results, but will probably lead to major changes and disruptions in the world of Thedas, and it's hard to see now were the writers might take it (if they choice to deal with it at all, given it was a voluntary choice).



However, I do think there will be a cost the Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) will personally pay in the future, simply because I agree with maxernst, I don't think anything will be for free in this, the Warden will have to face the results of the Dark Ritual at some point, whatever it is (I hope we do anyhow, would be a very interesting story), The Athurian tones to it make me wonder if there might be personal tragedy down in line for the Warden, but that i likely reading to much into those overtones (though it might be interesting if they went with a story similar to that pursued in the Beowulf movie, and in the Arthur stories, our Warden having to face the results of our previous decisions, but that of course would probably require the decision to have more negative results then positive, which need not be the case).



Overall it's really uncertain what will be the result of this decision if it's taken, and as such it could have some great story telling potential (hopefully it might even take us into the events of the Magisters invasion of the Golden City (if that's what actually happened) and find out more what these Old Gods are

[Astranagant]

CptPatch wrote...

My contention is that Morrigan is using the Dark Ritual as a means to make _her_ the most awesome Mage Thedas has ever seen.  And that was her goal all along.

Killing Flemeth was actually part of their plan and Flemeth wants to posess the Archbaby and become an Old God!

[TheLion36]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
BTW, as critical as I am of this particular part of the story, I know we are dealing with something the plot depends on, and realize that if my Warden were allowed to stay "in character," there would be no heavy handed plot hook that has us literally waiting on edge to see what happens next.

I see you also missed the "Tie Morrigan to the bed and tickle her bare feet until she tells you everything!" option? I'm sure it would have made for a lovely cutscene!
 

errant_knight wrote...
I think it is. She might very well think that the child might prove useful, and that preserving an old god is just a good idea generally. She clearly has a plan of some kind, but it may not include any knowledge of end result. Now, Flemeth may have known more. In fact it seems likely.

I was wondering the same thing this afternoon when trying to find reasons why she didn't want to tell us anything. Perhaps she only knew her part in the plan but has no clue what Flemeth wanted the child for, knowing Morrigan she might not want to tell you what she plans with the child because she doesn't want to appear clueless, but has no idea whatsoever yet.
However the question that arises is if Morrigan has no clue what the child could be used for, would it be that important to her that she would sacrifice so much... I think if she doesn't know everything she at least knows some things of the child that she hasn't told us yet.

She did mention she wanted to raise the child so, so far it sounds rather friendly... She at least won't give birth to him and eat him or drain the child of all its powers. This also sounds like the child has some role to play by itself perhaps. Of course if she wants to take over the childs body she would also have to raise him like Flemeth did her, but somehow I don't think she wants to take over the body.

Astranagant wrote...
Killing Flemeth was actually part of their plan and Flemeth wants to posess the Archbaby and become an Old God!

How would you explain the situation then when Flemeth leaves unharmed and Morrigan thinks she's dead? Besides I think the body-snatching theory is too predictable. However this might have been the initial idea of Flemeth, but I doubt its what Morrigan is going to do.

Modifié par TheLion36, 12 février 2010 - 07:14 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Curlain wrote...

The Athurian tones to it make me wonder if there might be personal tragedy down in line for the Warden, but that i likely reading to much into those overtones (though it might be interesting if they went with a story similar to that pursued in the Beowulf movie, and in the Arthur stories, our Warden having to face the results of our previous decisions, but that of course would probably require the decision to have more negative results then positive, which need not be the case).

I agree, I thought this too at first.  Let's just say the root "Mor" shows up alot and mostly denotes tragedy depending on the Arhturian cycle one reads.  But our Morrigan may have a closer association with the actual Morrigan of Irish Myth.

I'm sure this is posted elsewhere, but what the heck.  Here are a few interesting snippets from WikiP:

+ There have been attempts by some modern authors of fiction to link the Arthurian character Morgan le Fay with the Morrígan [of Irish mythology]. Morgan first appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Vita Merlini (The Life of Merlin) in the 12th century. However, while the creators of the literary character of Morgan may have been somewhat inspired by the much older tales of the goddess, the relationship ends there. Scholars such as Rosalind Clark hold that the names are unrelated, the Welsh "Morgan" (Wales being the source of Arthurian legend) being derived from root words associated with the sea, while the Irish "Morrígan" has its roots either in a word for "terror" or a word for "greatness".

+ Morrígan ("terror" or "phantom queen") or Mórrígan ("great queen")

+ She is associated with sovereignty, prophecy, war, and death on the battlefield.

+ She sometimes appears in the form of a crow

+ ...suggests a role connected with fertility, wealth, and the land.

+ ["Morrigan"] can be straightforwardly interpreted as "great queen" (Old Irish).  Current scholarship generally maintains that Morrígan, often translated as "Phantom Queen," is the older, more accurate form.

+ The Morrígan's earliest narrative appearances, in which she is depicted as an individual, are in stories of the Ulster Cycle, where she has an ambiguous relationship with the hero Cúchulainn. In Táin Bó Regamna (The Cattle Raid of Regamain), Cúchulainn encounters the Morrígan as she drives a heifer from his territory. He challenges and insults her, not realizing who she is. By this he earns her enmity. She makes a series of threats, and foretells a coming battle in which he will be killed. She tells him, enigmatically, "I guard your death".

+ She can be interpreted as providing political or military aid, or protection to the king — acting as a goddess of sovereignty, not necessarily a war goddess.

I appears at first blush that the Morrigan of Irish myth (depending on the interpretation) is as ambiguous as our Morrigan, making her the perfect model on which to build this particular DA character.  I just hit a few highpoints, there are other interesting references in the article.  Some interesting root words are included also. 

See: http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Morrígan

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 12 février 2010 - 07:58 .

[errant_knight]

Very interesting and thorough, thanks! So the results of the dark ritual, and the existance of the god-child, might be just as ambiguous, huh? I find the association soverignty particularly interesting, since it's a large and repeating theme in Dragon Age. Perhaps the dark ritual and/or the child will have more to do with the soverignty of Fereldan than it initially appears.

[Curlain]

Yeah I thought Morrigan was inspired by the Irish mythological figure/deity more the Morgan Ley Fey, more the feeling of the ritual as a whole had Arthurian overtunes but like you say, given Morrigan's inspirations this is probably less the case. In fact, just like Morrigan, the ritual is ambiguous, which makes it all the more interesting.



Also as you say there are different traditions, Irish for Morrigan, and Arthurian ones deriving from the Britons of 5th-7th centuries AD, surviving in the areas this culture survived after the arrival and expansion of the Anglo-Saxon cultures (which became England) that arrived from what is now the Netherlands, northern Germany and Denmark, what are now Wales, Cornwall and Brittany in France (a number of Romano-Britons fled there in the 5th century, changing name of the province Amorica to being called Lesser Britain or Britianny, this is also why Britain became called Great Britain, as it became Greater Britain to distinguish it from Britanny).

[Barbarossa2010]

errant_knight wrote...

Very interesting and thorough, thanks! So the results of the dark ritual, and the existance of the god-child, might be just as ambiguous, huh? I find the association soverignty particularly interesting, since it's a large and repeating theme in Dragon Age. Perhaps the dark ritual and/or the child will have more to do with the soverignty of Fereldan than it initially appears.

And she does present herself as valuing freedom above all else, with the possible exceptions of survival and power of course, which dependent on how these are practiced, could erase the former.    Darn it.  Forced to look both ways again.  Great writing for sure.  

Freedom could be an overarching theme here, and she does mention it at the Ritual. 

[Alandros]

Potentially preserving the old god of Beauty that otherwise would be destroyed or remain as an archdemon (assuming that it is indeed the old God that people suspect), to my character that is indeed a good thing Now if my character was a Chantry zealot it would be a bad thing.

[nYshak]

errant_knight wrote...

This thread as been drifting off topic since the beginning, but now it's gone somewhere else entirely. Discussion of Morrigan's motivations are very interesting but aren't the topic I proposed. Discussion of the roles of ethical dilemas in the game isn't the topic, either. Thoughts about whether the dark ritual should be in the game at all is totally not the topic....

I find it hard to discuss the rituals outcome without discussing Morrigans motivations. After all she's the one conducting it. If she has evil intentions its likely the result will turn out to be just as evil.

[guytza]

Is the Dark Ritual a good thing?

On the face of it, We just caused the Old God of Beauty to be reborn. Seems like a good idea on the first glance.

Two problems:
1. We dont know the nature of the Old Gods, The Greek Gods were pretty much all petty beings who got their jollies by torturing and playing with the lives of mortals. Even if we just let loose Aphrodite, we may still be categorically screwed.

2. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. As the sole known god left active, who is to say that it isnt eventually gonna go and demand all mortals on the planet worship it. At least before there were 7 old dragon gods to counterbalance each other.

On the other hand:
If you turn the deal down and kill the archdemon, you still have the darkspawn to deal with, they let loose the next two archdemons which are in turn killed by Wardens. There will never be another blight.....
But there will still be Darkspawn, which will keep spawning until they overwhelm the dwarves, spill out on to the surface and kill everything. Infestations are like that.
Given the scope of the Darkspawn problem and the petty nature of Thedas politics it would take a miracle to finally end the threat of the darkspawn. A miracle....if only we had a god on our side.....

[DiatribeEQ]

Everyone assumes that the dark ritual does indeed happen in the canon of the game universe. Who is to say that Bioware only offered this as a means to let the players (who didn't save Lhogaine) a chance to live & weren't wanting to sacrifice (or even had) Alistair in their group?



Honestly, I feel the endings were a bit too rushed, another couple weeks to flesh out endings beyond a simple powerpoint slide show could've been achieved & many more of us understanding a bit more in terms of black & white what happened. Yes, I'll admit that Bioware did want a bit of ambiguity in their endings to keep enough possibilities open so that whichever "Main Story" they decide on for DA:O-2, they can take it and run with it and simply point to that possible ending as a "hint" from them.

[errant_knight]

nYshak wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

This thread as been drifting off topic since the beginning, but now it's gone somewhere else entirely. Discussion of Morrigan's motivations are very interesting but aren't the topic I proposed. Discussion of the roles of ethical dilemas in the game isn't the topic, either. Thoughts about whether the dark ritual should be in the game at all is totally not the topic....

I find it hard to discuss the rituals outcome without discussing Morrigans motivations. After all she's the one conducting it. If she has evil intentions its likely the result will turn out to be just as evil.

 
I get that, but I don't want to see this become a pro/anti Morrigan discussion, and that seemed to be where it was heading. Admittedly I didn't read all the posts in detail. I have a whopper of a migraine today, and reading kind of hurts, but that seemed to be  the general thing that was starting to occur.

One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere? It seems likely to me that someone gave them that idea, and I have to wonder what the motivations were behind that. That, plus the darkspawn use of the old gods, if that's what they are, seems interesting, and not unconfusing. Do they use the archdemon because it can speak to the hoards, because it's power attracts them, or for another reason entirely?

[DiatribeEQ]

And what of the Dalish Gods? Or the Maker? Or whomever else's gods not mentioned? Perhaps it's their hands that guide the mortals in this game to nudge everyone down a path they want the characters to go?

[errant_knight]

DiatribeEQ wrote...

And what of the Dalish Gods? Or the Maker? Or whomever else's gods not mentioned? Perhaps it's their hands that guide the mortals in this game to nudge everyone down a path they want the characters to go?

If there's a plan to manipulate the wardens. I'm pretty sure it's not godly....

[Demx]

errant_knight wrote...

The wardens have essentially been exteminating the old gods, tainted gods, but gods nonetheless. In order to actually kill the god, they have to drink the darkspawn blood in a complex ritual. Who gave them that ritual?

Perhaps the Joining originated with trying to find a cure for the taint.

Modifié par Siradix, 13 février 2010 - 02:11 .

[DiatribeEQ]

errant_knight wrote...

DiatribeEQ wrote...

And what of the Dalish Gods? Or the Maker? Or whomever else's gods not mentioned? Perhaps it's their hands that guide the mortals in this game to nudge everyone down a path they want the characters to go?

If there's a plan to manipulate the wardens. I'm pretty sure it's not godly....

We all know Tevinter will be playing a major role.  We just don't know if it'll be DA:O2 or DA:O3.  Perhaps it's they who are helping pull the strings?  Whom better to benefit from the power spawned from the RItual of Blood?

[Maria Caliban]

Curlain wrote...

Yeah I thought Morrigan was inspired by the Irish mythological figure/deity more the Morgan Ley Fey, more the feeling of the ritual as a whole had Arthurian overtunes but like you say, given Morrigan's inspirations this is probably less the case.

David picked the name Morrigan because a gal at the PnP game he DMs had it as the name of her character, and he liked it. Lothering is called Lothering because David saw 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas' the night before he named the town. Thedas is called Thedas because a bunch of forumites used is as an abbreviation for THE Dragon Age Setting.

Trying to find a deeper meaning in the characters and names of Dragon Age is a futile task.

[maxernst]

Guytza, that's a good point about the Greek gods. To our modern minds, a god of beauty sounds benign, but actually Aphrodite was arguably the worst of the lot, largely responsible for the Trojan war. She's vain, vindictive and generally troublesome in almost whenever she appears in their myths.

[draxynnus]

TheLion36 wrote...

draxynnus wrote...
You're trying to recruit Arl Eamon to your cause, and you probably want his forces to be as strong as possible - spending one evening and night out of a canonical year (it's mentioned at some point) to help defend his holdings so he'll be stronger when he's revived makes both diplomatic and military sense.

This will depend on the time it takes to get from Lothering to Redcliffe, unfortunately time isn't really a constant in this game so its hard to measure. I can't remember seeing a mention of your journey taking a year but I'll take your word for it and it also makes sense (there's a lot to do for the warden), I do wonder however if they implemented this year decision later because everyone seems to be in a big rush at some points in the game almost as if you only have 10 days to solve everything and this seems especially true at the beginning of the game.
If there is time then you're right its a strategically valid solution. 

I think it was a year from Ostagar to the battle of Denerim (or at least the Landsmeet), not to Redcliffe.

Still, pretty much all of the quests are "urgent urgent urgent" once you get there, but in a lot of cases it also feels like things don't actually reach boiling point until you're already close to getting there - Redcliffe and Orzammar especially (you just happen to arrive the afternoon before the battle that would wipe out the village if you don't intervene? Or the day that the Proving is to happen?). The impression I get is that most of the time is actually spent travelling (Redcliffe to the Circle Tower is apparently a day, and that's one of the shorter distances), so I expect that once you get there, taking an evening to help defend a village is not a significant loss of time compared to what you've already spent running around.

Plus, the appearance of undead villagers in the castle if you do abandon them suggests that refusing to defend the village doesn't mean that you're charging directly into the castle to save time - instead, it seems like such a refusal involves simply sitting and watching the village get slaughtered before going in the following day. (Note that I haven't taken this option yet, but that's at least what it looks like.)

nYshak wrote...

To defile or not defile....well....seems kinda straight forward but why should it be an evil act to defile the ashes for a dalish elf who does not believe in the maker in the first place? Plus, you can save Arl Eamon and his armies AND gain the support of the Cult of Andraste to defeat the darkspawn.

The Dalish don't get along with the Chantry, but Andraste herself was responsible for the elves having had the Dales to lose in the first place. I'd expect a Dalish to respect Andraste's remains even if otherwise they tweak the Chantry's nose every chance they get.

Going back on topic...

Curlain wrote...

However, I do think there will be a cost the Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) will personally pay in the future, simply because I agree with maxernst, I don't think anything will be for free in this, the Warden will have to face the results of the Dark Ritual at some point, whatever it is (I hope we do anyhow, would be a very interesting story), The Athurian tones to it make me wonder if there might be personal tragedy down in line for the Warden, but that i likely reading to much into those overtones (though it might be interesting if they went with a story similar to that pursued in the Beowulf movie, and in the Arthur stories, our Warden having to face the results of our previous decisions, but that of course would probably require the decision to have more negative results then positive, which need not be the case).

This is actually an element that made my first character decide to go through with it himself, despite being in a romance with Leliana, rather than passing it off to Alistair - in that playthrough Alistair was going to be crowned King, and while my character was sympathetic towards giving Urthemiel a second chance, making it so that the child wasn't actually of the royal line reduces the potential damage it can do. The thought strikes me, though, that Alistair may well prove to be the father in a larger number of playthroughs than any other ending.

Modifié par draxynnus, 13 février 2010 - 02:51 .

[errant_knight]

DiatribeEQ wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

DiatribeEQ wrote...

And what of the Dalish Gods? Or the Maker? Or whomever else's gods not mentioned? Perhaps it's their hands that guide the mortals in this game to nudge everyone down a path they want the characters to go?

If there's a plan to manipulate the wardens. I'm pretty sure it's not godly....

We all know Tevinter will be playing a major role.  We just don't know if it'll be DA:O2 or DA:O3.  Perhaps it's they who are helping pull the strings?  Whom better to benefit from the power spawned from the RItual of Blood?

Actually, I don't think we all know that at all. I think it more likely that, in terms of other countries, we will see interactions with the Orleisians and Qunari, most likely, but Tevinter.... I don't know about that.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Here is the way I look at it.



My character gets to keep living and so does the new king. Choosing to stay in Denerim I am pretty much second in command of the cities army and probably have a few IOUs left from groups like the Circle of Magi.



So in 20 years or whenever, if Morrigan's child starts causing problems, well I have a whole army at my back, a boat's load of magical weaponry, and nobody but Morrigan knows about my part in creating that minor problem.



And what makes the old god's so different from normal dragons? Knowing so little about the nature of the old gods, I must say my character is probably less than worried.

[errant_knight]

ReconTeam wrote...

Here is the way I look at it.

My character gets to keep living and so does the new king. Choosing to stay in Denerim I am pretty much second in command of the cities army and probably have a few IOUs left from groups like the Circle of Magi.

So in 20 years or whenever, if Morrigan's child starts causing problems, well I have a whole army at my back, a boat's load of magical weaponry, and nobody but Morrigan knows about my part in creating that minor problem.

And what makes the old god's so different from normal dragons? Knowing so little about the nature of the old gods, I must say my character is probably less than worried.

Sure, but that doesn't address the topic at all....