250 réponses à ce sujet

[Inquisitor Recon]

Well I consider whatever is good for my character good for Ferelden.

[TheLion36]

errant_knight wrote...
One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere? It seems likely to me that someone gave them that idea, and I have to wonder what the motivations were behind that. That, plus the darkspawn use of the old gods, if that's what they are, seems interesting, and not unconfusing. Do they use the archdemon because it can speak to the hoards, because it's power attracts them, or for another reason entirely?

Well the motivations for the joining ritual are hard to think of as evil. Afterall without it mankind wouldn't have been around anymore.

To me an important question is how the blights started... From the wiki I read that when the Magisters entered the Golden City they corrupted it with their sin and I always assumed that meant they got tainted at the same time, however at this link: http://old.dragonage...perium&mode=and
David Gaider states: "The Maker punished the magisters, however, for breaching the Golden City. This is what turned them into the darkspawn and began the First Blight.".
If that is the case then one could wonder why our good and kind Maker wants to exterminate all beings and not just punish the Tevinther Emperium, to me this doesn't sound too friendly. One reason I could think of is that he might not be able to destroy the old gods himself and needs us to do it for him and for that corrupting them would be a good method and in that case the Maker might have provided us with the joining information.
Another possibility would be that the old gods might have taught wardens how to fight the blights to save mankind, if they are benevolent gods this could be an option.
Its also possible however that the old gods taught us the joining blood recipe to release them, perhaps some of the information was lost or only passed on to certain individuals like Flemeth.

I remember Duncan stating however that the first wardens mastered the taint. To me this sounded like dozens or hundreds of people just drank the blood and due to some genetic uniqueness one or two did not die or turn. The problem with this is that we now use a special joining ritual where the blood prepared with darkspawn blood, blood of an Archdemon, Lyrium and some magical spell(s). This could of course be the result of studying the first wardens and somehow increasing the chances of some genetic trigger that allows the joiners to live, but it might also be that the first wardens already used this technique. Afterall after slaying the same archdemon several times there has to be quite a bit of archdemon blood to play around with.
Considering the complexity and secrecy of the creation of the joining blood however I would assume it wasn't just designed by a mage, it sounds like something handed down to them by some being.

Modifié par TheLion36, 13 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[draxynnus]

errant_knight wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Here is the way I look at it.

My character gets to keep living and so does the new king. Choosing to stay in Denerim I am pretty much second in command of the cities army and probably have a few IOUs left from groups like the Circle of Magi.

So in 20 years or whenever, if Morrigan's child starts causing problems, well I have a whole army at my back, a boat's load of magical weaponry, and nobody but Morrigan knows about my part in creating that minor problem.

And what makes the old god's so different from normal dragons? Knowing so little about the nature of the old gods, I must say my character is probably less than worried.

Sure, but that doesn't address the topic at all....

It does...kinda. His point can basically be summarised as "if it turns out to be a bad thing, I'm confident I can deal with it when it comes."

However, it is making a few assumptions - namely, that what Urthemiel/Morrigan/Flemeth designs to do will be overt enough to be faced by an army, and that whatever results from the Ritual will happen when the new Urthemiel reaches human adulthood. If the reborn Urthemiel has a longer-than-normal lifespan, this may not be so (in fact, for all we know, even an uncorrupted Urthemiel will be able to reform the unborn child into something closer to his pre-corrupted form, especially since Morrigan herself is a shapeshifter).

[DiatribeEQ]

errant_knight wrote...

DiatribeEQ wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

DiatribeEQ wrote...

And what of the Dalish Gods? Or the Maker? Or whomever else's gods not mentioned? Perhaps it's their hands that guide the mortals in this game to nudge everyone down a path they want the characters to go?

If there's a plan to manipulate the wardens. I'm pretty sure it's not godly....

We all know Tevinter will be playing a major role.  We just don't know if it'll be DA:O2 or DA:O3.  Perhaps it's they who are helping pull the strings?  Whom better to benefit from the power spawned from the RItual of Blood?

Actually, I don't think we all know that at all. I think it more likely that, in terms of other countries, we will see interactions with the Orleisians and Qunari, most likely, but Tevinter.... I don't know about that.

Oh, I see that as being a huge storyline.  You've seen the much larger map, right?  The Tevinter Empire is freakin' huge.  There's no way it doesn't play a major, major role, "soon".  As I said, whether or not it's in the next game or the one after, I see it coming down the pipe.  

[TSamee]

errant_knight wrote...

DarthRomance wrote...

I don't think it is good or evil. In this game it is all about point of view and winning for yourself. Morrigan sees an advantage in it for herself so she does and it could play a role in future adventures most likely remaining ambiguous whether it is good or bad just like Morrigan/Flemeth herself.

Of course, no doubt in hundreds of years the Chantry and other smartasses will look back and turn the Dark Ritual into a cautionary tale about the hazards of sex and the temptations of women.

Okay, let me rephrase: I believe there are good actions in the game, and evil ones. I'm starting to think that it will turn out that the dark ritual, rather than being a place where Alistair and my PC failed to uphold their values, my turn out not to be so. That killing the old gods may turn out to have been a very bad thing, in my conception of right and wrong. Basically, will letting the soul of the old god survive turn out to be something that Alistair will approve of?

But you knew that's what I meant, didn't you?

I get the strange feeling you're right. If DA2 was just "oh my god, it's a Blight" again, then it could be pretty disappointing. I think that DA's Blight was there to set the stage for a much larger story, and this seems like a perfectly viable option for one. However, I'm not so sure (personally) about the killing of the Old Gods and what it means. I mean, we've got no idea whether they're actively calling to the Darkspawn when dormant, we don't know enough about the Darkspawn themselves (they might be deeply linked to the Gods), and we certainly don't know enough about the whole "invasion of the Black City" business, which I'm sure will be a large element in the plot, and is likely linked to the Old Gods. To be honest, if the Black City was once the seat of the Maker, and it supposedly existed during the time of the Old Gods, then who's to say the Maker isn't one him/her/itself?

I'm looking forward the The Awakening; I really think that a lot of DA2's potential plot and the motivations behind the Ritual, etc, could be revealed once we know more about the Darkspawn.

[nYshak]

errant_knight wrote...
One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere?

It does not seem too far fetched to assume the Grey Wardens were simply desperate to find a way to defeat the darkspawn. The people of Thedas faced an enemy unlike any other, one whos strongest weapon wasn`t a sword or axe but corruption. To defeat the darkspawn you have to defeat the corruption they spread. If you cannot manage to do that victory will never come.

So I guess at some point the to become Wardens simply drank the blood in order to force an army into existence that was immune to the darkspawn taint. Obviously they would have seen that many die if they get poisoned by darkspawn but not all.

[errant_knight]

nYshak wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere?

It does not seem too far fetched to assume the Grey Wardens were simply desperate to find a way to defeat the darkspawn. The people of Thedas faced an enemy unlike any other, one whos strongest weapon wasn`t a sword or axe but corruption. To defeat the darkspawn you have to defeat the corruption they spread. If you cannot manage to do that victory will never come.

So I guess at some point the to become Wardens simply drank the blood in order to force an army into existence that was immune to the darkspawn taint. Obviously they would have seen that many die if they get poisoned by darkspawn but not all.

I could agree with that if the joining was merely a matter of drinking darkspawn blood and swearing allegiance, but it's apparently a lot more complex than that. Lyrium and a drop of archdemon blood are also involved. Not things that you'd go 'Hey, let's just try that and see what happens!', or that could occur in a lucky accident like hominy.

[Gold Dragon]

As Regards to the Joining: It's also possible that the modern Ritual is based upon piecemeal findings from past actions. The first ones probably only drank the Blood of the Darkspawn/Archdemon. Later, perhaps when supplies were running low, the Warden Mages looked into ways of improving the ritual.

[draxynnus]

Or the additions may be intended to increase the chance of a successful ritual (where "success" is defined as "the recruit doesn't die") - the lyrium may be part of an enchantment to bolster the constitution of the drinker, for instance.

[Thalorin1919]

Wanted to add in my tidbit.

I am not really worried about Morrigan using the child for evil. For I think she is the type of person that doesnt care about conquering the world. What worried me is that she said she is going to tell the child what it is.

Basically an old god. And it will most likely have old god powers. I'm more worried about the kid in 15 years coming out of nowhere blowing up cities and leading armies to conquer Thedas then Morrigan using the kid.

Modifié par Thalorin1919, 15 février 2010 - 04:05 .

[Feops1]

Unfortunately there's precious little information on what an uncorrupted old god is or can do. We do know that Morrigan does this primarily for her own good, but that doesn't really imply either way if her actions are good or evil.

In character, my warden had a chat with Morrigan about her intentions with the child. It was a few months ago so I forget the word-for-word, but it was generally a positive.tone about wanting to let it grow uncorrupted and unharmed. Morrigan doesn't tend to lie, so I chose to believe her. That said the situation seemed very win-win to me at that point. Saving something good and pure from the blight in addition to not having to sacrifice a warden was fantastic all around.

Modifié par Feops1, 15 février 2010 - 03:44 .

[errant_knight]

Feops1 wrote...

Unfortunately there's precious little information on what an uncorrupted old god is or can do. We do know that Morrigan does this primarily for her own good, but that doesn't really imply either way if her actions are good or evil.

In character, my warden had a chat with Morrigan about her intentions with the child. It was a few months ago so I forget the word-for-word, but it was generally a positive.tone about wanting to let it grow uncorrupted and unharmed. Morrigan doesn't tend to lie, so I chose to believe her. That said the situation seemed very win-win to me at that point. Saving something good and pure from the blight in addition to not having to sacrifice a warden was fantastic all around.

I agree that her intentions don't seem bad on the face of it, but Morrigan does lie when it suits her, most notably why Flemeth sent her along. I believed her intentions, though. The part of the ritual I had problems with was overwriting the child's own soul. Purposly creating the child to destroy what makes it unique is less than ideal, even if the thing being saved has value. I had to think about it for a while even though I didn't really disagree with her. Eventually the desire to live, coupled with an equal desire to see Alistair live and to ensure that Anora not take the throne, made the decision.

[TheLion36]

errant_knight wrote...
Morrigan does lie when it suits her, most notably why Flemeth sent her along.

I'm not sure she lied about it. Considering how suprised she was that she was sent along and the fuss she made about her mother casting her out like that, it all seemed very sincere.
It is my believe she had no clue at first why she was sent with you, but most likely realised it later on and then neglected to tell you and the reason she gives for this is that you probably wouldn't have believed her, which might make sense. 
She said herself in Flemeths hut when you first awaken that her mother rarely informs her of her plans, so why would this be any different?

I could of course be viewing her through pink glasses (is that an expression in English? In Dutch it means looking at someone and viewing everything they do as perfect/good because one loves them).

I agree with the reasoning that she doesn't want to conquer, when the banther between her and Zevhran is going on he keeps telling her that she should be worshipped almost like a goddess, but she clearly shows she has no interest in being worshipped. This of course is slightly different than ruling, but in history people that wanted to conquer also wanted to feel worshipped.

Modifié par TheLion36, 15 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[sylvanaerie]

TheLion36 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Morrigan does lie when it suits her, most notably why Flemeth sent her along.

I'm not sure she lied about it. Considering how suprised she was that she was sent along and the fuss she made about her mother casting her out like that, it all seemed very sincere.
It is my believe she had no clue at first why she was sent with you, but most likely realised it later on and then neglected to tell you and the reason she gives for this is that you probably wouldn't have believed her, which might make sense. 
She said herself in Flemeths hut when you first awaken that her mother rarely informs her of her plans, so why would this be any different?

I could of course be viewing her through pink glasses (is that an expression in English? In Dutch it means looking at someone and viewing everything they do as perfect/good because one loves them).

I agree with the reasoning that she doesn't want to conquer, when the banther between her and Zevhran is going on he keeps telling her that she should be worshipped almost like a goddess, but she clearly shows she has no interest in being worshipped. This of course is slightly different than ruling, but in history people that wanted to conquer also wanted to feel worshipped.

In English we say "Rose Colored Glasses" which being rose is a pinkish color pretty much is the same thing. 

As for the ritual, I don't know, can't even speculate what repercussions it has in the future but will be fun to see the story unfold. 

[krylo]

TheLion36 wrote...
I could of course be viewing her through pink glasses (is that an expression in English? In Dutch it means looking at someone and viewing everything they do as perfect/good because one loves them).

It does, though in english it's 'Rose-Tinted Glasses'.

Also, I've noticed one portion of Morrigan's motivations and character that has been glossed over in talking about this. Yes, she likes power for herself.  Yes, she is vain.  Yes, Flemeth's plans probably involved using the god's power for herself.  HOWEVER:


Morrigan also cares about the preservation of magic and the old ways.  She speaks against the chantry for trying to destroy the old ways of magic.  She doesn't say that 'some apostates still use these old magics' when asked, she says, 'some still preserve these old magics'.   She rails on Leilianna for presuming that her own religion is greater than that of the Dalish elves using lines such as, "Perhaps they would prefer blessings from their own gods?" and she knows much of the history of the world and the old ways, perhaps taught by Flemeth.

Given this: Why is it so 'apparent' that Morrigan could only be doing this for herself?  Considering that if you have high marks with her and ask her about the child she will say something along the lines of, "But some things deserve to be preserved... take that as you will."

Chances are Flemeth sent her out to do this so that Flemeth could devour the god's powers for herself, but Morrigan isn't Flemeth.

Further, on the whole 'Nothing is a free ride in this game' let's look back at Redcliffe.

You have three options.

1) Kill Connor.
2) Kill Connor's mom.
3) Kill no one, but take a bit longer at it.

If it were true that 'Nothing is free' option three would have resulted in the demon reclaiming control of Connor in the two full days you are gone and slaughtering everyone.  This didn't happen.  You are, effectively, able to save everyone at zero cost to yourself.  

There are some things in this game that ARE free.

So, to answer the question in the OP: If Flemeth still lives at end game, doing the ritual is probably a terrible terrible idea.  If Flemeth is dead, however, I see it as a neutral or even positive thing.  I'm not convinced the old gods are evil when untainted.  I'm not convinced Morrigan is evil, especially having after romanced her and been best buds with her on two different play throughs.

However, the PC that romanced her still told Morrigan he'd find her.  I think she'd make a terrible single mother.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

I agree that her intentions don't seem bad on the face of it, but Morrigan does lie when it suits her, most notably why Flemeth sent her along.

No, she didn't actually lie - she just doesn't tell you why. Evasion of the truth is not the same as lying. She doesn't say that she's joining you because <fill in the blank>. Neither she nor Flemeth tell you why she's going at all. Interestingly (to me) Flemeth does say that your accepting Morrigan into your party is a reward for her (Flemeth).  It was at this point that I went "Huh?". The reward Flemeth wants for saving your life is that you take her daughter along? Obviously, there's something for Flemeth, personally,  to gain in this.

Unlike some others, I think Morrigan did know about the ritual and what she had to do. Flemeth probably told her about it after you got the treaties, and before she rescued you. However, I think her surprise when told she was going with you was genuine. She probably expected Flemeth to send her along just when the ritual needed to be done, rather than joining the party for the entire journey.

[Curlain]

THere is one thing that does make we worried, as pointed out by this guy in another thread 

Dethanos wrote...

Mass Fraud wrote...

Morrigan's old god baby maybe. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Yeah anytime a Claudia Black character has a baby, bad things are bound to happen.

Farscape: CB has baby > Peacekeeper Wars
Stargate: CB has baby > Ori Invasion
Dragon Age: CB has baby > ???

[errant_knight]

Well, she says she doesn't know why Flemeth sent her, then later says that the dark ritual is the reason Flemeth saved them and sent her along. She lied about that one with total sincerity, which really puts a crimp in believing her about other things....

[krylo]

Also, something I thought of after making that other post:



Flemeth isn't human. She's an abomination. A fade spirit residing in a human shell.



All fade spirits can body hop. There is no exception to this in the world of dragon age that we know of.



No humans can. There is, again, no exception to this in the world of dragon age that we know of.



Conclusion: Morrigan couldn't body hop into the kid for old god powers even if she wanted to.

[lbo54]

Never said being a warden meant being the good guy

[Maria Caliban]

errant_knight wrote...
One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere?

It’s important to remember that the First Blight and the formation of the Grey Wardens happened before Andreste and the founding of the Chantry.

Blood magic was still ‘acceptable.’ Moreover, dragon cults flourished, and one of their most frequent rites was the drinking of dragon blood.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, she says she doesn't know why Flemeth sent her, then later says that the dark ritual is the reason Flemeth saved them and sent her along. She lied about that one with total sincerity, which really puts a crimp in believing her about other things....

This is not the same thing - but maybe only an pedant like me can tell it. She knew about the ritual - but she didn't know why Flemeth sent her along with you from the very beginning. As I said, I don't think she expected to have to go adventuring with you, help you raise armies, and so on. She doesn't know why Flemeth wanted her to go and do all that. She thought (or so it seems to me) that she would merely have to turn up just when the ritual needed to be done - and offer you a way out.

Edit: To clarify, she knew why she had to eventually meet up with your party and carry out the Dark Ritual. But, she didn't know why Flemeth sent her along with you. The two are not the same thing at all.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 16 février 2010 - 01:44 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, she says she doesn't know why Flemeth sent her, then later says that the dark ritual is the reason Flemeth saved them and sent her along. She lied about that one with total sincerity, which really puts a crimp in believing her about other things....

This is not the same thing - but maybe only an pedant like me can tell it. She knew about the ritual - but she didn't know why Flemeth sent her along with you from the very beginning. As I said, I don't think she expected to have to go adventuring with you, help you raise armies, and so on. She doesn't know why Flemeth wanted her to go and do all that. She thought (or so it seems to me) that she would merely have to turn up just when the ritual needed to be done - and offer you a way out.

Edit: To clarify, she knew why she had to eventually meet up with your party and carry out the Dark Ritual. But, she didn't know why Flemeth sent her along with you. The two are not the same thing at all.

That's parsing language pretty fine. I'm not sure that I buy that as being Morrigan's way.

[Addai]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Edit: To clarify, she knew why she had to eventually meet up with your party and carry out the Dark Ritual. But, she didn't know why Flemeth sent her along with you. The two are not the same thing at all.

I agree.  I mean, her shock at Flemeth's suggestion seems genuine enough to me, and she tells Flemeth "this is not how I wanted this."  She is talking about leaving the Wilds, but could well be talking about the ritual.  Flemeth can see that her plan is about to fail, however, because there are only 2 Wardens left in Ferelden.

Was it this thread or elsewhere where people were claiming Morrigan's eyes were green before the ritual and gold after?  I have a screenie, if anyone still cares, that clearly shows Morrigan with gold eyes while standing outside Flemeth's hut at the beginnng of the game.  They just look different depending on the light.

[Meliorist13]

krylo wrote...

Also, something I thought of after making that other post:

Flemeth isn't human. She's an abomination. A fade spirit residing in a human shell.

All fade spirits can body hop. There is no exception to this in the world of dragon age that we know of.

No humans can. There is, again, no exception to this in the world of dragon age that we know of.

Conclusion: Morrigan couldn't body hop into the kid for old god powers even if she wanted to.

Who says Morrigan is human?  I'm not so sure on that....just a thought.  Flemeth bore daughters according to legend, so why couldn't Morrigan also?  All we have are the stories we are told.  I don't think the plan es all Flemeth's doing, but Morrigan's and hers.  Morrigan being who she is, tries to throw a wrench in the works by getting you to kill Flemeth so that she doesn't have to share the rewards at the end.


I'm not up on the official story or anything, but from my understanding, no one knows doodily squat about Morrigan,her origins or intentions, and all we have to go on concerning her is what we learn from our contact with her and what others say.

Modifié par Meliorist13, 16 février 2010 - 03:41 .