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[errant_knight]

I have to admit, I've never had any certainty that Morrigan was human, not entirely anyway. She clearly was a human child at one time, but who's to say what she was before tha. A wolf, maybe?

[draxynnus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere?

It’s important to remember that the First Blight and the formation of the Grey Wardens happened before Andreste and the founding of the Chantry.

Blood magic was still ‘acceptable.’ Moreover, dragon cults flourished, and one of their most frequent rites was the drinking of dragon blood.

Interesting observation there - the first Grey Wardens may simply have been looking to partake in the Archdemon's power the same way as they would another dragon, and, well, got what they were looking for after a fashion. It's even possibly that the rest of the ritual came from the regular dragon cult ritual of the time, although it probably has been refined over the centuries.

[Ceridraen]

I found it depressing on my mage, especially after my male warrior had, basically, a romantic last night with his girlfriend, where they conceived a child. Thanks, Bioware... But I liked Morrigan - I actually think she'd be a good mother. I'd rather be raised in the wilds by her, anyway, rather than some Chantry nut, or locked in a tower.

[krylo]

Meliorist13 wrote...


Who says Morrigan is human?  I'm not so sure on that....just a thought.  Flemeth bore daughters according to legend, so why couldn't Morrigan also?  All we have are the stories we are told.  I don't think the plan es all Flemeth's doing, but Morrigan's and hers.  Morrigan being who she is, tries to throw a wrench in the works by getting you to kill Flemeth so that she doesn't have to share the rewards at the end.


I'm not up on the official story or anything, but from my understanding, no one knows doodily squat about Morrigan,her origins or intentions, and all we have to go on concerning her is what we learn from our contact with her and what others say.

If she were an abomination Flemeth couldn't use her the way she wanted.

Two fade spirits can't possess/inhabit the same abomination.

Further--Flemeth had daughters because she had a human body.  Her human body still aged like a normal mortal body.  So every 20-30-40 years or whatever, she'd have a new child, and then perform a ritual of some sort to remove their resistance to her, and then possess the new body leaving the old one to rot.

If Morrigan were the same type of abomination Flemeth couldn't have done this and Morrigan would have had little, if anything, to fear from her mother.

[TheLion36]

errant_knight wrote...
Well, she says she doesn't know why Flemeth sent her, then later says that the dark ritual is the reason Flemeth saved them and sent her along. She lied about that one with total sincerity, which really puts a crimp in believing her about other things....

I still believe Flemeth taught her the ritual, possibly even a long time ago. However I don't think Morrigan knew why she was sent with you, but I think somewhere along the road Morrigan remembered the ritual and put two-and-two together and knew this is why she was sent. Her not telling you btw could also be a good thing, if she would have told you that someone would have to die or you would have to conceive a child with her after which she would leave you, this wouldn't have been very good for your morale and you could have failed your mission (I know my character cried himself to sleep after the ritual knowing Morrigan would leave him so if he would have done that throughout the mission he would have been too depressed to continue).

I have no basis for this assumption except not having been able to catch her at any other lie, which makes me think she's sincere! 

Meliorist13 wrote...
Who says Morrigan is human?  I'm not so sure on that....just a thought. 

We can't be sure, but from the way Flemeth and Morrigan speak to eachother and Morrigans response at the hut for being sent along, she at least seems very young. I don't think its an act since its not necessary in the grand scheme of things.

There is a theory out there that a witch in one of the books (The Calling?) asks a favor from Maric for helping him. No one knows the favor however it has been suggested Maric is Morrigans father. Which could also hint at her being human. (Imagine Morrigan and Alistair half-sibblings, lol). There is however no proof that the witch in the book is actually Flemeth.

Meliorist13 wrote...
I'm not up on the official story or anything, but from my understanding, no one knows doodily squat about Morrigan,her origins or intentions, and all we have to go on concerning her is what we learn from our contact with her and what others say.

True, but if we can't make decisions on what Morrigan or others say about her and some legends, then we have nothing at all to go on. I think she's human, all the conversations and banther hints at it. I also think that Flemeth is her birthmother (considering the Alistair nose conversation and Flemeths eyes are a bit like Morrigans) and Flemeth, according to legend, was once human. Granted Flemeth bound with a demon/spirit so we don't know exactly what Flemeth is today but we don't know if this is genetic or just a soul thing.

Addai67 wrote...
Was it this thread or elsewhere where people were claiming Morrigan's eyes were green before the ritual and gold after?  I have a screenie, if anyone still cares, that clearly shows Morrigan with gold eyes while standing outside Flemeth's hut at the beginnng of the game.  They just look different depending on the light.

I think that was the Morrigan/Flemeth same plan thread... Someone posted a screenshot there of her with yellow eyes at the dark ritual talk and a green eyes one in camp, so I counter-posted one with yellow eyes at ritual-talk, first meeting and flemeths hut.

P.S. Its true that everytime Claudia Black had a child in a tv show something happened, however in every case she wasn't the problem or the evil one. The baby in Farscape I believe had nothing to do with the peacekeeper wars (been a while since I've watched the series tho). The Ori child in StarGate, granted but Val did everything in her power to turn her daughter to the good side and even helped fight her. So if this is anything to go on then its good news for Morrigan and 50/50 for the baby...

Modifié par TheLion36, 16 février 2010 - 08:41 .

[errant_knight]

draxynnus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere?

It’s important to remember that the First Blight and the formation of the Grey Wardens happened before Andreste and the founding of the Chantry.

Blood magic was still ‘acceptable.’ Moreover, dragon cults flourished, and one of their most frequent rites was the drinking of dragon blood.

Interesting observation there - the first Grey Wardens may simply have been looking to partake in the Archdemon's power the same way as they would another dragon, and, well, got what they were looking for after a fashion. It's even possibly that the rest of the ritual came from the regular dragon cult ritual of the time, although it probably has been refined over the centuries.

That's actually a very good point. Still, drinking tainted archdemon blood, and even creepier, darkspawn blood.... Bit of a leap, even for a dragon cult.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

That's parsing language pretty fine. I'm not sure that I buy that as being Morrigan's way.

It may be parsing language pretty fine - but that's what I'm trained to do. People often mislead themselves about what something or someone really says because of their own preconceptions. And then later accuse the someone or something of lying. That's not to say that sometimes lies aren't told - but I have yet to catch Morrigan in a lie in this game.

Please note that I'm not categorically averring that she hasn't lied, just that I haven't found out that anything she's said was incontrovertibly a lie.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

That's parsing language pretty fine. I'm not sure that I buy that as being Morrigan's way.

It may be parsing language pretty fine - but that's what I'm trained to do. People often mislead themselves about what something or someone really says because of their own preconceptions. And then later accuse the someone or something of lying. That's not to say that sometimes lies aren't told - but I have yet to catch Morrigan in a lie in this game.

Please note that I'm not categorically averring that she hasn't lied, just that I haven't found out that anything she's said was incontrovertibly a lie.

Thing is, the majority ot people don't cut it quite that fine, so in doing so, you're just as likely to be finding meaning where none exists. Not saying that's the case here, but the only people who's semantics we can truly judge are out own. With other people, it's a toss up either way.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Thing is, the majority ot people don't cut it quite that fine, so in doing so, you're just as likely to be finding meaning where none exists. Not saying that's the case here, but the only people who's semantics we can truly judge are out own. With other people, it's a toss up either way.

Almost, but not quite, true. I can generally figure out what people really said, it's not that difficult. What's difficult is figuring out what they meant to say, and how to interpret it, and whether they believe it to be the truth, much less whether it is.

Nevertheless the observable evidence in this case, the written record of what Morrigan actually says, provides no evidence for her lying. Any student who presented that argument in an essay I was marking would be in serious trouble.

[maxernst]

As far as the saving Conner being "free"--it's not really true. Even if you've already cleared the circle and are confident they'll help, you have to send a mage to the fade, and there's a risk Wynne or Morrigan could die. It's not that hard, but it's more difficult than simply killing conner, which you don't even have to do, you can let Isolde do it.



The Dark Ritual is just handed to you. Flemeth will give you her grimoire freely and I gather Morrigan pops up with the offer, even if you've sent her away and she has low approval. In addition to that, unlike Conner (which is about trying to help somebody else), it's basically a selfish choice. I just doubt that the game is going to reward you for making a risk-free, selfish choice over a self-sacrificing one.



As I've said earlier, I'm not sure the consequences will necessarily be bad, but I think that it's going to prove to be risky and at least potentially disastrous. I'm expecting a powerful being that could do great evil or shake things up in such massive ways that it's a hard call whether it's good or evil... And I have a feeling Morrigan herself may not really know what the consequences are going to be.



As to whether Morrigan lies or not...there's very little that she says is actually verifiable one way or the other. Who are you going to ask, Flemeth? I can't prove she's told me lies, but neither can I prove that she's told the truth about a lot of things.

[Helios969]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

That's parsing language pretty fine. I'm not sure that I buy that as being Morrigan's way.

It may be parsing language pretty fine - but that's what I'm trained to do. People often mislead themselves about what something or someone really says because of their own preconceptions. And then later accuse the someone or something of lying. That's not to say that sometimes lies aren't told - but I have yet to catch Morrigan in a lie in this game.

Please note that I'm not categorically averring that she hasn't lied, just that I haven't found out that anything she's said was incontrovertibly a lie.

Spot on.  Although she (Morrigan) dances around the truth as well as an Aes Sedai (if you know the reference.)

[Culdi]

TSamee wrote...
I get the strange feeling you're right. If DA2 was just "oh my god, it's a Blight" again, then it could be pretty disappointing. I think that DA's Blight was there to set the stage for a much larger story...

This caught my eye. The subtitle for the game is "Origins", and dragons are what the Age (century) was named after, even though that wasn't its original name-by-omen. If Morrigan's child is the first returned Dragon (the Andraste Dragon will need explaining...), and heralds the Awakening of a bunch more dragons, it's going to be bad for some people and maybe good for others.

[Velvetmeds]

this will make Morrigan turn out to be the great heroine of the series, because the child will be the one who'll rid the lands of darkspawn forever. mark my words!

[maxernst]

Culdi wrote...

TSamee wrote...
I get the strange feeling you're right. If DA2 was just "oh my god, it's a Blight" again, then it could be pretty disappointing. I think that DA's Blight was there to set the stage for a much larger story...

This caught my eye. The subtitle for the game is "Origins", and dragons are what the Age (century) was named after, even though that wasn't its original name-by-omen. If Morrigan's child is the first returned Dragon (the Andraste Dragon will need explaining...), and heralds the Awakening of a bunch more dragons, it's going to be bad for some people and maybe good for others.

This makes sense to me.  The only problem is, what if the PC doesn't accept the offer?  Does Morrigan find another Grey Warden to do it on such short notice?

[Curlain]

maxernst wrote...

Culdi wrote...

TSamee wrote...
I get the strange feeling you're right. If DA2 was just "oh my god, it's a Blight" again, then it could be pretty disappointing. I think that DA's Blight was there to set the stage for a much larger story...

This caught my eye. The subtitle for the game is "Origins", and dragons are what the Age (century) was named after, even though that wasn't its original name-by-omen. If Morrigan's child is the first returned Dragon (the Andraste Dragon will need explaining...), and heralds the Awakening of a bunch more dragons, it's going to be bad for some people and maybe good for others.

This makes sense to me.  The only problem is, what if the PC doesn't accept the offer?  Does Morrigan find another Grey Warden to do it on such short notice?

Well given how Awakening is handling the US Warden I'm guessing that the Dark Ritual is going to be a canon ending, so by DA2 the Warden of DA will have agreed to it, and will have happened.  So I'm pretty sure that the Old God child is going to be one of the central themes for future DA games and stories.

[TheLion36]

maxernst wrote...
This makes sense to me.  The only problem is, what if the PC doesn't accept the offer?  Does Morrigan find another Grey Warden to do it on such short notice?

I expect the ritual to open up an option for you at some point. Similar to when saving Connor you have several options, perhaps you also have several options when ending the blights.

Just to illustrate this with an example situation (not based on anything): Imagine the only way to get into the golden city is by using blood magic, if you didn't do the ritual this might require the blood of say 100 people, otherwise the child might volunteer and might be the only sacrifice needed...

[Archereon]

Has nobody considered that Morrigans baby could potentially be the PC (human, half elf, or half dwarf) in DA2 (the possibility of the ritual not happening can be allevated by the fact it won't have an import feature (too much work) and will have a cannon ending like Baulder's gate.)

[maxernst]

I've considered it, but I hope they don't do that. It seems like that would be a rehash of the Baldur's Gate plotline.

[Archereon]

Well, it would be fun, and explain the new bad ass abilities they give your DA2 character? (Please)

[MOTpoetryION]

well you can actually from here on out be considered a real GOD FATHER lolololol

plus it might be useful to have one so high up per- say

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 16 février 2010 - 10:42 .

[draxynnus]

Regarding the name of the Age: I believe, canonically, it is named for the Andraste dragon, who was the first high dragon to appear in yonks. The people in-world giving the names of Ages don't seem to have any means of predicting what's going to happen in the Age, and instead seem to name the Ages for a defining event at the start. In the case of Dragon, it was the pre-clutching rampage of "Andraste", with the expectation that the appearance of a breeding High Dragon would mean that dragons will start becoming more common again.

errant_knight wrote...

draxynnus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
One thing that we're ignoring, I think, is the initial use of the joining ritual to defeat the darkspawn. One has to wonder where they got the idea to drink darkspawn/archdemon blood, and the knowledge of how to do the ritual itself. How did they even know that the soul of the archdemon was going elsewhere?

It’s important to remember that the First Blight and the formation of the Grey Wardens happened before Andreste and the founding of the Chantry.

Blood magic was still ‘acceptable.’ Moreover, dragon cults flourished, and one of their most frequent rites was the drinking of dragon blood.

Interesting observation there - the first Grey Wardens may simply have been looking to partake in the Archdemon's power the same way as they would another dragon, and, well, got what they were looking for after a fashion. It's even possibly that the rest of the ritual came from the regular dragon cult ritual of the time, although it probably has been refined over the centuries.

That's actually a very good point. Still, drinking tainted archdemon blood, and even creepier, darkspawn blood.... Bit of a leap, even for a dragon cult.

Maybe it was a Darkspawn cult initially?

It would be an ironic origin for the Grey Wardens, but recall that in the First Blight people probably didn't really know what was going on - and the first Archdemon was not only a dragon, but in some respects the dragon (Dumat was the first Old God to contact the magisters, and according to Tevinteran theology, the leader of the Old Gods). The original Grey Wardens may in fact have been seeking to appease or show devotion to Dumat, to gain a measure of protection from the Blight or even to join the ranks of the darkspawn themselves. In a way they succeeded - however, in doing so they learned the true nature of the darkspawn and at least some of those (that survived) realised that there was no appeasing the Archdemon and that they, and everyone else, basically had a choice of fighting or dying.

Modifié par draxynnus, 16 février 2010 - 11:06 .

[maxernst]

Draxynus, that's an interesting hypothesis. Although it's also possible that it was just determined that the joining would work by some magical means. How did Flemeth figure out how to capture the soul of an old god from a dying archdemon? Probably not by trial and error.

[SusanStoHelit]

Helios969 wrote...

Spot on.  Although she (Morrigan) dances around the truth as well as an Aes Sedai (if you know the reference.)

Indeed, I do. I've been reading Jordan since he first started writing - probably before many on these boards were born.

[SusanStoHelit]

As for the drinking of the blood and how it started, we may never know. But certainly there are a large number of cultures/religions irl that, for a variety of reasons, have included the consumption of the blood/flesh of either creatures or vanquished enemies. A common theme is the contamination of matter; that is, you take on the qualities of that which you consume (and I don't mean the taint).

So those first wardens could have been:
* copying Tevinter blood magic rites - or, indeed, not copying them, but simply continuing their normal religious/cultural practices
* or they could already have been tainted (surely in a century or so of constant fighting, many people became so), and were searching for a cure (the hair of the dog, so to speak)
* or maybe it was the last in a long series of failed experiments to find some way to permanently kill the Archdemon
* or they were seeking to take on the power/strength of the Archdemon by consuming its blood

Who can say?

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 17 février 2010 - 02:44 .

[krylo]

maxernst wrote...

As far as the saving Conner being "free"--it's not really true. Even if you've already cleared the circle and are confident they'll help, you have to send a mage to the fade, and there's a risk Wynne or Morrigan could die. It's not that hard, but it's more difficult than simply killing conner, which you don't even have to do, you can let Isolde do it.

If you let Isolde do it you still have to send a mage to the fade to fight the spirit..

Further, you can send First Enchanter Irving to do it, and the idea of the First Enchanter being unable to deal with ONE fade spirit is kind of hard to stomach.

And at the end of the day, you lose nothing for doing so.  In fact you can gain a good amount of power for doing it if you go in there yourself and never have to fight a fade spirit.

The Dark Ritual is just handed to you. Flemeth will give you her grimoire freely and I gather Morrigan pops up with the offer, even if you've sent her away and she has low approval. In addition to that, unlike Conner (which is about trying to help somebody else), it's basically a selfish choice. I just doubt that the game is going to reward you for making a risk-free, selfish choice over a self-sacrificing one.

As I said, if you're going to let Flemeth live, this will not end well.

Flemeth is an ancient abomination that has been killing her daughters for what?  Three centuries?  Yeah.  Letting her have an old god will not end well, we can all agree.

However, if you kill Flemeth you have put CONSIDERABLY more risk into it than just stopping one nameless fade spirit.  You've challenged a legend to mortal combat.

One can hardly say the 'dark ritual' was handed to you in such a case, and whether Flemeth still lives should definitely be a large consideration in how this plays out in the end.