101 réponses à ce sujet

[Lantern]

GeorgeZip wrote...

Some of your points are well taken but I think your playstyle doesn't make best use of the AW.

Massive Armor is absolutely not necessary to melee tough opponents. Heavy Dragon armor is more than enough with Shimmering Shield. Ogres can pick you up and chew on you and you take very little damage. Medium would probably be fine but haven't tried it yet. Before Wade's quest yeah, the choice in armor is pretty limited.

A few things are horribly wrong with this argument.

1) You do realize that you are using an example of a fairly exotic - potentially late game - armor that may not be accessible to the vast majority of dragon age players? Should Arcane Warriors be restricted to using 1-3 fairly rare and/or exotic armor sets to be able to play their class effectively? Or should the game mechanics of the Arcane Warriors allow them to choose a much wider breadth of armors as soon as they select their class while still being effective as a hybrid.

2) Shimmering Shield (in the latest patch) annihilates your mana. Even with a fairly low fatigue armor + Shimmering Shield, you can't cast more than a few spells before you are tapped out and Shimmering Shield expires from lack of mana. And if you aren't wearing some serious armor, you will promptly explode if anything moderately substantial is attacking you into a gory mist.

GeorgeZip wrote...
Also I wouldn't recommend trying to activate all your AW skills and sustained ablities at the start of the battle. Activate them before combat, at least the important ones like combat magic and shimmering shield. You're overall mana pool might be at 50 percent but you if you're making an AW, spend more points in willpower so the mana pool is larger.

See my original post. This is exactly what I find ridiculous. There is little combat flexibility for Arcane Warriors. You have to either choose to tank or cast before a battle begins because during a battle, it is highly inefficient to do so. And as I illustrated in my original post, in order to use your Arcane Warrior abilities with reasonable success, you generally have to equip heavy armor + Combat Magic and lose all ability to cast spells. And if you aren't using your Arcane Warrior abilities, you might as well be a generic mage that has wasted talent slots on highly situational Arcane Warrior abilities. You are an Arcane Warrior in title only and a generic mage in reality.

GeorgeZip wrote...
Putting away the sword to cast is a little annoying but it's a fair trade-off for the amount of toughness an AW has over a regular mage.

And this is the whole point of my original post, I think AWs should have their "toughness" reduced. There is little justifcation for an Arcane Warrior that can absorb more damage than a thoroughbred tank. In addition to this toughness reduction, they should get enhanced combat casting abilities so they actually begin to represent a warrior/mage hybrid.

Modifié par Lantern, 17 février 2010 - 06:38 .

[kaya08]

I had the same problem with my first AW.

Second time I just decided to stick to mage robes, throw lots of points into dex, and only use sustainables that increase my attack or defence (Miasma is the only one i need 9/10 of the time, SS against enemies with a particularly high attack score).



It works.

I'm primarily a healer, always have enough mana for heal or group heal. I'd generally need to use a lyrium potion to revive squad members. Melee weapon is for damage (My damage is average). I rarely get hit but when I do it hurts ... a lot. The lifegiver ring should sort that out. Also have a lot of cc's which i usually fire off at the start of the fight (before turning on CM) and they make most things pretty easy.



I doubt its as effective as the usual invincible AW build but its a hell of a lot more fun and still one of the strongest characters I've made.

Still, some activatable melee attacks would be nice. Also not being able to cast spells with a melee weapon is annoying, your already losing any bonuses that would be on a mage staff.

[TheRealIncarnal]

Oddly enough, and we had a whole thread about this, but Massive armor is not the only effective armor for Melee combat. There's a variety of extremely good Heavy and even Medium armor. Actually, the best armor in the game is arguably a medium armor.



That said, I agree that it's definitely a head above the other specializations (excluding Spirit Healer, but why not have both?). I wouldn't mind if it was changed into more of a skirmisher than "Mage-Tank"

[GeorgeZip]

Lantern;

I'm not sure what you mean by exotic armor. Wade's armor is essentially free, well 10 gold I guess. Eamon's shield is available right after you meet Conor the first time up in the armory room. The Fade Wall is a rare drop and late game, but you can use Eamon's until then and after if it doesn't drop. The executioner's helm can just be bought from a vendor after the assasin quests are done.



I agree that the AW doesn't shine until late game. The Fade Shroud (i think thats the last AW skill) isn't available until level 16. So just wait until level 14 to put points in the AW tree and plan on completing it at level 18. Then you're strong enough to get the sword and dragon scales and begin using the AW style. It is rough to try being an AW earlier, at least I found it to be, and left the skills inactive until I had the gear.



Shimmering Shield does annhilate your mana if you have no regen items. With the belt from the Tower vendor and Wades set bonus you get back to positive regeneration. I'm not certain the exact amount you need but I didn't have a problem.



I have to disagree with your third point. Around level 18+ with the gear available the AW should be able to run a couple sustained and have mana enough to get the job done. If you run 4 sustained, well you won't have much mana left over. It's a trade off and the player can adjust this to their playstyle. If you want a super tank melee mage, run as many sustained as you can and use your sword. If you want a caster who can take a few hits, just run shimmering shield. The helm I mentioned and either shield adds 50 stamina, which translates to alot of base mana pool. Try it out if you haven't.



Anyway, the AW class could definitely be tweaked or improved. I agree they might be too tough. But I'd also say the same about dual wield warriors I just commented because it sounded like some changes in your gear or playstyle would make it more fun to play.

[ModerateOsprey]

I am watching this thread with interest.



I am currently playing a mage who is is now at lvl 11 and I have been considering the AW class. Till now I have mainly been putting putting points into Magic, but popping the odd one into Dex on the way.



For RP reasons, I do not really want my PC to wear armour but rather stick with robes or perhaps light armour. I just fancy being able to able to carry a fancy sword and give something a clobbering occasionally with my magic as my main offence. I am drugs and band-aid user for health replenishment. If I am given a penalty to swap stuff out, then I can live with that. I can't imagine changing armour half way through a fight I also don't mind a penalty for swapping to a staff - this seems to be real enough as my sword (currently in the camp storage chest) has rune slots, so magic is still in the air.



Kaya's post above seems to suggest that this approach is playable.

[DJ0000]

Lantern wrote...

[*]Massive armor/Plate is currently the only way to reliably engage in melee effectively.

[*]Massive armor + Combat Magic Fatigue penalty prohibits Arcane Warrior from being a spell casting/melee hybrid and encourages melee tanking disproportionately more than spell casting.

[*]Too many spells require sheathed weapons to cast

[*]Not enough medium armor selections for Arcane Warriors

[*]Arcane Warrior lacks unique active abilities[/list] 

I appreciate your view but for me AW just awesome as it is. So here's my view:

1. I like massive armour because it looks awesome and it works extremely well. I think, considering how much fatigue the AW sustainables give, the massive armour doesn't make so much of a difference.

2. You can easily spellcast bu using blood magic though some people don't like it for RPing. I always play the hybrid spellcaster/ melee brawler.

3. I think they did this on purpose to weaken AW's a little. What I would like is for a new sustainable where the AW can create a spectral weapon and then turn off the ustainable to spellcast. That would be cool.

4. I don't like medium armour, not so cool; )

5. True.

I like AW as it but if they can make it even better I'd be soooo happy(South Park reference)

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

ModerateOsprey wrote...

I am watching this thread with interest.

I am currently playing a mage who is is now at lvl 11 and I have been considering the AW class. Till now I have mainly been putting putting points into Magic, but popping the odd one into Dex on the way.

For RP reasons, I do not really want my PC to wear armour but rather stick with robes or perhaps light armour. I just fancy being able to able to carry a fancy sword and give something a clobbering occasionally with my magic as my main offence. I am drugs and band-aid user for health replenishment. If I am given a penalty to swap stuff out, then I can live with that. I can't imagine changing armour half way through a fight I also don't mind a penalty for swapping to a staff - this seems to be real enough as my sword (currently in the camp storage chest) has rune slots, so magic is still in the air.

Kaya's post above seems to suggest that this approach is playable.

Very much so.  AW is a fantastic 2nd specialization for the caster focused builds IMHO & can easily be done with good robes (Reaper's) and many light armors.  You just cast like normal ... and activate Combat Magic if you feel like melee for any reason.

That's the thing about Arcane Warrior as a specialization ... it grants tremendous flexiblity in terms of playstyle.  The generic "Tank" arcane warrior is only one option of many.

[Lantern]

GeorgeZip wrote...

Lantern;
I'm not sure what you mean by exotic armor. Wade's armor is essentially free, well 10 gold I guess. Eamon's shield is available right after you meet Conor the first time up in the armory room. The Fade Wall is a rare drop and late game, but you can use Eamon's until then and after if it doesn't drop. The executioner's helm can just be bought from a vendor after the assasin quests are done.

Your forgetting the minor detail about killing a high dragon that is optional for the game's completion in order to get Wade's Armor. I think this qualifies it as exotic in addition to being late game. Additionally, no shield or helm in the game is going to make your Arcane Warrior significantly more viable.

GeorgeZip wrote...
I agree that the AW doesn't shine until late game. The Fade Shroud (i think thats the last AW skill) isn't available until level 16. So just wait until level 14 to put points in the AW tree and plan on completing it at level 18. Then you're strong enough to get the sword and dragon scales and begin using the AW style. It is rough to try being an AW earlier, at least I found it to be, and left the skills inactive until I had the gear.

Then we agree there is a problem. In a game with a limited amount of time (not an MMORPG), why do I want to wait until the last 10 hours of a potentially 70-80 hour game in order to enjoy my class with any reasonable amount of effectiveness as a spellcaster/warrior hybrid? I eventually got my AW to be somewhat durable and caster effective by investing massive amounts of gold into my character (Reaper's Vestments, Lifegiver). But this was with around 10 hours of game time left in my game. Is the class functioning properly when I need to invest several hundred sovreigns into my Arcane Warrior so I don't have to wear the heaviest plate in the game to use my abilities? I think a better approach would be to make the Arcane Warrior viable as a caster hybrid from the moment you select it as a specialization (like any of the other specializations) and not expect players to enjoy their class for the last 10 hours of game play only after investing enormous amounts of gold.

Even then, casting spells with Combat Magic was impractical (with around 33 willpower), and casting spells with weapons sheathed ineffecient.

GeorgeZip wrote...
Shimmering Shield does annhilate your mana if you have no regen items. With the belt from the Tower vendor and Wades set bonus you get back to positive regeneration. I'm not certain the exact amount you need but I didn't have a problem.

Really. Because I had about 2.5-3 combat mana regeneration and my mana was still being consumed much more rapidly than I could generate it. But again, why do Arcane Warriors have to min/max to this extreme just to make their class viable as a warrior/mage hybrid? Balance the class so these restrictions don't play as much a factor.

GeorgeZip wrote...
I have to disagree with your third point. Around level 18+ with the gear available the AW should be able to run a couple sustained and have mana enough to get the job done. If you run 4 sustained, well you won't have much mana left over. It's a trade off and the player can adjust this to their playstyle. If you want a super tank melee mage, run as many sustained as you can and use your sword. If you want a caster who can take a few hits, just run shimmering shield. The helm I mentioned and either shield adds 50 stamina, which translates to alot of base mana pool. Try it out if you haven't.

Again, at around 18+? How about at 7+ we can play our class effectivly. And I challenge you to play an Arcane Warrior that can run Shimmering Shield + Combat Magic + Cast and keep that up for more than 10 seconds or 2-3 casts of a moderately mana intensive spell. Then I challenge you to be wearing any robes other than Reaper's Vestments and last more than another 10 seconds with agro as Shimmering Shield drops.

Modifié par Lantern, 16 février 2010 - 08:10 .

[DJ0000]

Lantern wrote...
Again, at around 18+? How about at 7+ we can play our class effectivly. And I challenge you to play an Arcane Warrior that can run Shimmering Shield + Combat Magic + Cast and keep that up for more than 10 seconds or 2-3 casts of a moderately mana intensive spell. Then I challenge you to be wearing any robes other than Reaper's Vestments and last more than another 10 seconds with agro as Shimmering Shield drops.

I have done this. Simple solution...Blood magic.
 
Activate all sustainables and run magic off health. With reasonable mana regen it is easily possible to keep SS up permanently- all you need is about 4 mana regen(I think).

I assure you this is possible if you're willing to become a blood mage.

Modifié par DJ0000, 16 février 2010 - 11:05 .

[Lantern]

DJ0000 wrote...

Lantern wrote...
Again, at around 18+? How about at 7+ we can play our class effectivly. And I challenge you to play an Arcane Warrior that can run Shimmering Shield + Combat Magic + Cast and keep that up for more than 10 seconds or 2-3 casts of a moderately mana intensive spell. Then I challenge you to be wearing any robes other than Reaper's Vestments and last more than another 10 seconds with agro as Shimmering Shield drops.

I have done this. Simple solution...Blood magic.
 
Activate all sustainables and run magic off health. With reasonable mana regen it is easily possible to keep SS up permanently- all you need is about 4 mana regen(I think).

I assure you this is possible if you're willing to become a blood mage.

So you have to take another specialization to play one specialization? lol. Again, sounds like poor design to me. You don't have to choose Berserker in order to play Templar effectivly, why should we have to do this for Arcane Warriors? How about we make the Arcane Warrior stand on it's own two feet without exploiting the abilities of other classes to make up for it's obvious defeciencies.

I personally didn't choose the Blood Magic route for RP reasons because I don't agree with what you have to do to unlock this specialization - and I am sure I am not alone.

[beancounter501]

First, your proposals basically sounds like you want your cake and eat it to. You want a high defense, high attack, low fatigue character who can cast just as well as a pure mage and fight almost as well as a pure fighter. It would be the most overpowered spec in the whole game. Where is the drawback? Right now there is a big drawback, the big 50% fatigue penality for combat magic. The weapon sheathing. (But I will agree the weapon sheathing is annoying. I would drop that and leave the fatigue.) And it is not that hard to get around the 50% penalty - just turn off combat magic. The cooldown is only ten seconds.



And you can play your class right from level 7. Medium armor works just fine on the front lines. My 2 Hand warrior ran medium armor the entire game and never had any problems. Wades is great, but you will do just fine with Chainmail. Just take your tank in first and hit taunt. Your mage will never grab agro. If low defense high damge cunning rogues can survive then your medium armor AW should be just fine.

[Lantern]

beancounter501 wrote...

First, your proposals basically sounds like you want your cake and eat it to. You want a high defense, high attack, low fatigue character who can cast just as well as a pure mage and fight almost as well as a pure fighter. It would be the most overpowered spec in the whole game. Where is the drawback? Right now there is a big drawback, the big 50% fatigue penality for combat magic. The weapon sheathing. (But I will agree the weapon sheathing is annoying. I would drop that and leave the fatigue.) And it is not that hard to get around the 50% penalty - just turn off combat magic. The cooldown is only ten seconds.

And you can play your class right from level 7. Medium armor works just fine on the front lines. My 2 Hand warrior ran medium armor the entire game and never had any problems. Wades is great, but you will do just fine with Chainmail. Just take your tank in first and hit taunt. Your mage will never grab agro. If low defense high damge cunning rogues can survive then your medium armor AW should be just fine.

If you actually read the changes I suggested I think you would see a considerable sacrifice to get the "cake" I want. I suggested a reduction (not elimination) of Combat Magic fatigue from 50% to 25%, weapon casting, a slight defensive boost to Combat Magic, and one active melee ability.

I then suggested eliminating some of the most overpowered AW abilities: the ability to wear Massive/Heavy plate armor and Shimmering Shield.

How is that not a balanced tradeoff?

Taunt certainly increases your chances of survival, but it isn't always available. There are going to be times when you are going to take agro in the front lines while using combat magic and in those instances I feel that the spellcaster/warrior hybrid should be viable and you shouldn't have to switch exclusivly to an overpowered tank.

Warrior and Rogues have much higher physical resistances, hitpoints, and defense than mages of equal armor. A medium armored Warrior>Rogue>Mage.

Modifié par Lantern, 17 février 2010 - 02:34 .

[beancounter501]

While I agree about the weapon casting without sheathing, cutting the Combat Magic fatigue in half would be a huge bonus. And on top of that you want to add a bonus to defense. I think the active melee ability would be interesting.



In return you would give up Heavy/Massive Armor and shimmering shield. Neither of which is that great in my mind. Heavy/Massive armor destroys yours spell casting completely, even without Combat Magic. Shimmering Shield is great and all, but it costs a boat load of mana - about 300 Mana Points in a minute. I can think of all whole lot more to do with 300 Mana points then elemental resistance + Physical Resistance.



You do know Rock Armor + Medium Armor is almost as good as Massive Armor? And Glyph of Warding + Heroic Defense = +60 defense. Nevermind heal, lifeward, drain life, and the fact that restore health potions heal more on a mage then a warrior because of the magic score. Or you can drop out of combat magic and cast mind blast/sleep. Follow up with your favorite nuke spell. A medium armored mage is pretty tough.

[GeorgeZip]

Lantern wrote...

Really. Because I had about 2.5-3 combat mana regeneration and my mana was still being consumed much more rapidly than I could generate it. But again, why do Arcane Warriors have to min/max to this extreme just to make their class viable as a warrior/mage hybrid? Balance the class so these restrictions don't play as much a factor.

Weren't you using Massive Armor?  That was the main problem with your experience with the AW.  I honestly had no regen problems after the level 16 skill called Fade Shroud or something.  It reduces mana costs for AW.  You're suggestions are fine but many people find the AW not only fine but one of the strongest builds. It's possible you weren't using the best gear setup and strategy when playing it.  But hey, if you are convinced it's a badly flawed specialization, its ok with me.

[Lantern]

GeorgeZip wrote...

Lantern wrote...

Really. Because I had about 2.5-3 combat mana regeneration and my mana was still being consumed much more rapidly than I could generate it. But again, why do Arcane Warriors have to min/max to this extreme just to make their class viable as a warrior/mage hybrid? Balance the class so these restrictions don't play as much a factor.

Weren't you using Massive Armor?  That was the main problem with your experience with the AW.  I honestly had no regen problems after the level 16 skill called Fade Shroud or something.  It reduces mana costs for AW.  You're suggestions are fine but many people find the AW not only fine but one of the strongest builds. It's possible you weren't using the best gear setup and strategy when playing it.  But hey, if you are convinced it's a badly flawed specialization, its ok with me.

I used Warden Commander's set for awhile but quickly got tired of it eating my mana and being frustrated with the
inefficiencies of transferring between combat and mage roles in combat. So I just switched to mostly a mage role after purchasing Reaper's Vestments + Lifegiver. I had a great time playing the game, but only rarely used my Arcane Warrior abilities after the fight was pretty much over and/or my enemy was heavily CCed. Considering how useful all of the Spirit Healer and Blood Mage (!!!) abilities are, I feel like my 4 talents in Arcane Warrior could have been used much better elsewhere - even if it was in generic mage talents.

Don't get me wrong, the Arcane Warrior is extremely powerful as a tank, and I think a majority of you who have problems with what I am proposing enjoy it in this tanking role. However I don't philosophically agree that this should be it's role. It would be like if the Templar class was more effective wearing robes and auto attacking with a stave than being able to utilize its warrior abilities effeciently.

As a warrior/mage hybrid - a class that theoretically should use a combination of mage and warrior abilities in a synergistic fashion in combat, the Arcane Warrior falls horribly short. That is the problem I have with the class - not that it isn't effective at what it currently does best: tanking.

Modifié par Lantern, 17 février 2010 - 08:57 .

[DKJaigen]

your not using your AW correctly or expect to much from it. My Aw is a melee powerhouse able to cast 1-2 spells before wading into the melee. i can easily defeat loghain on nightmare mode through this. while its only autoattack haste and enchantment can greatly increase the damage to the point that only a berserker dual wielder is able to keep up.



And as somebody already mentioned BM synergies well with the AW to the point you can cast as many spells as you like. especially if someone can summon pets.



some questions



1. do you invest in dex?

2. do you use daggers? and do you dual wield them?

3. do you use BM (not even needed)?

4. do you have the spells miasma and haste?



if you do then you are limiting yourself to being a tank or an armored caster.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Lantern wrote...
Don't get me wrong, the Arcane Warrior is extremely powerful as a tank, and I think a majority of you who have problems with what I am proposing enjoy it in this tanking role. However I don't philosophically agree that this should be it's role.

I've read all your posts and they essentially boil down to "my personal preference is...."
 
I also think that you are dead wrong in some of your assessments.  Of course the Warden Armor is going to give you high fatigue and limit you to tanking.  That’s your tradeoff.  The heavy and massive armor give big fatigue … which is why folks go for the sustainable in that sort of build.  But this clearly isn’t the only way to build an AW.
 
Mostly cater AW types work really well too.  There are a TON of light armors that grant Stamina/Mana regeneration and offer very solid protection.  Similarly there is a really spiffy robe, the Reaper’s Vestments, that’s highly useable by an AW.
 
Just on these boards I’ve seen effective builds posted that look like traditional DnD Spellsingers with medium armor and good casting, Robe wearing casters that dual wield daggers, and more … in addition to the tank builds.  If you see tanking as the AW’s only option you haven’t been paying attention or testing enough different builds IMHO.
 
I strongly suggest that you try out an AW that has good dex, doesn’t wear anything above light armor (unless it’s a specific thing you want like the Warden’s Boots for +50 Stamina), and that takes the Poison and Trap skills to coat weapons and use bombs.  You can do a LOT with a basic build like that.

Lantern wrote...As a warrior/mage hybrid - a class that theoretically should use a combination of mage and warrior abilities in a synergistic fashion in combat, the Arcane Warrior falls horribly short. That is the problem I have with the class - not that it isn't effective at what it currently does best: tanking.

Hmm. 

Uses spells like Combat Magic, Haste, Glyph of Warding, etc. to increase combat effectiveness.  Synergy.

Uses warrior gear like Wade's Armor to improve casting.  Synergy.

[KragCulloden]

I find some of the responses very odd to the OP. I think his core argument is valid - I also think the specializations in DA are poorly done/designed at best, so I'm not surprised others find issues with one or two in particular.



It stands to reason that any class/specialization should not require any specific unique item(s) to be viable in the game. It also stands that a well designed system does not require a narrowly defined play style to be viable either. Yet most of the responses to the OP fit one of those two arguments - ie "You aren't using the right specific equipment" or "here is the key to playing, do this". Those arguments support the OP in that the class/specialty is not well designed or thought out.



At a general level, I think the designers made a big mistake role-playing wise by combining abilities so much into "jobs" - many of the specialties make little sense at all if you follow the in game lore and conversations. So arguments supporting the current AW design that require the player take a second supporting specialty are also bolstering the OPs contention that the design is far from optimal.



Ex: "To make a really viable arcane warrior you have to forego all your circle training and law of the land and begin practicing forbidden magic, just to use a legally-sanctioned, circled-trained specialty like arcane warrior."



Of course its not REQUIRED that you take the BW specialty to make a viable AW, but boy it sure does help a lot. Just ignore the entire roleplaying aspect of becoming enemy number one to the church, templars, and the entire culture you spent your entire lifetime with.



Rule number one of fiction writing is never violate the reality you yourself impose upon the reader - guess the bioware guys skipped that day.

[kaya08]

ModerateOsprey wrote...

I am watching this thread with interest.

I am currently playing a mage who is is now at lvl 11 and I have been considering the AW class. Till now I have mainly been putting putting points into Magic, but popping the odd one into Dex on the way.

For RP reasons, I do not really want my PC to wear armour but rather stick with robes or perhaps light armour. I just fancy being able to able to carry a fancy sword and give something a clobbering occasionally with my magic as my main offence. I am drugs and band-aid user for health replenishment. If I am given a penalty to swap stuff out, then I can live with that. I can't imagine changing armour half way through a fight I also don't mind a penalty for swapping to a staff - this seems to be real enough as my sword (currently in the camp storage chest) has rune slots, so magic is still in the air.

Kaya's post above seems to suggest that this approach is playable.

Its very playable, honestly I didn't really expect it to be that good but its working a lot better than I expected.

I'm about level 14ish, have 30 base dex and with Miasma nothing every really hits me (I sometimes need to cast weakness on dual wield rogues to get back to being virtually invincible). Just having mage robes makes everything except the enemy your hitting ignore you. Mind Blast solves any messy situations that come up.

I still have to get the last AW talent which will increase my attack and defence more, and still have to get Rally for Allistair which will increase it even more. So I doubt I'll need to put any more points into it. And honestly I'd say its increased my damage more than putting the points into magic because I have a hit rate in the 90%'s with it. My last AW had dex in the low 20's and had a hit rate in the high 70's / low 80's.
You kind of have to plan it out though in terms of the spells you have too though. My first AW had lots of pure damage spells, so he was impressive for the first 5 secs of the fight before having to turn into the invincible tank who had a hard time casting a fart let alone a spell and couldn't get anythings attention. BM solved the mana problem but it was a long wait to get that.
Now I tend to start most fights with crushing prison, paralysis and force field (and i still have glyph of paralysis and mass paralysis left). At the end of that anything vaguely dangerous is dead or out of the way for most of the fight. Then I'll cast virulent walking bomb, turn on CM and wade in. With CM and miasma on I have enough mana leftover to take care of any healing that comes up.

So I've got godly CC, great survivability, I can take care of all the healing and I do good damage (mostly thanks to walking bomb, great spell and mixes nicely with melee attacks).
Oh and if Allistair dies then i can turn on SS and become a tank!
And at this stage I can probably drop the rest of my attributes into magic so by end game I'll probably have great damage too.

The more I play it the more I think Massive Armour is the worst armour you can give your AW.

Anyway I don't know how well AW mixes with attack spells (didn't really work out for me), healing spells are pretty cheap on mana and a lot of them can be cast with a sword in your hand. I'd say you'd need to pump a lot of points into willpower or get blood mage for it to work.

EDIT:
Also @ the op. I think your underestimating how flexible AW is. Drop the massive armour, stop trying to tank, and throw some points into willpower. You might get more joy.
You have a lot of good points re. activatible melee abilities and having to put away melee weapons to cast a lot of spells. But outside of that the spec is fine imo (if completely overpowered).

Modifié par kaya08, 17 février 2010 - 01:14 .

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

KragCulloden wrote...

Ex: "To make a really viable arcane warrior you have to forego all your circle training and law of the land and begin practicing forbidden magic, just to use a legally-sanctioned, circled-trained specialty like arcane warrior."

Of course its not REQUIRED that you take the BW specialty to make a viable AW, but boy it sure does help a lot. Just ignore the entire roleplaying aspect of becoming enemy number one to the church, templars, and the entire culture you spent your entire lifetime with.

If evil magic isn't tempting to take because it's mechanically good then they are doing something wrong.

Blood Mage makes EVERY Mage type better.  There is absolutely NO reason that you can have a caster who uses Spell Wisp, Spell Might, Animate Dead, and other sustainables that deplete his mana pool act just like the Arcane Warrior ... except as a sort of "supercaster" with a Spellpower through the roof and a tank pet that keeps others from focusing on him.  Functionally this build would abuse the same synergy ... but would get to cast like mad for pretty much as long as he wants.  The spellpower would make all of his spells that much more uber too.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

^ Oh, and if you do that, make sure to equip a spellpower boost item first (I like the Final Reason DLC item just for this), then cast Spell Wisp, and then Spell Might. You get the best Spellpower boost that way & can even swap out to another item like Staff of the Magister Lord or Winter's Breath as you please.

[KragCulloden]

If your point is that you can build any mage to run out of mana quickly, I have no argument, but so what?



The issue with AW is that to utilize it as anything other than a spec to wear armor with, you need Combat Magic which has the large hit on mana...so in that sense its not a choice but a requirement to using the spec as intended - big difference. The obvious solution provided by the game is to then abandon all RP logic and follow forbidden magic paths just to make a sanctioned role (arcane warrior) viable. That is considered violating your own reality to some folks. Not a big deal, but a major disappointment nonetheless.



Dragon Age has a lot going for it, but at the game mechanic level, the disconnect between RP lore and character viability is pretty large (and not just with AW/BM).

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

That's false logic.



The Combat Magci fatigue penality applies to Blood Magic as well.



The non-Bloodmage Arcane Warrior can be a great Caster who turns on melee as needed ... or he can be a sustained spell guy. There is a bit of room for middle ground, but the power seems to really be at either end of the curve. Both of these types of builds are 100% playable without Bloodmage. You don't have to "abandon all RP logic" to have a "viable" AW.



The Bloodmage + AW can have is sustainables and cast too. So evil magic makes something mechanically good better. That's what it's supposed to do. The real problem with Blood Mage in DA is that there is no in game RP consequence for taking it. But that's for another thread.

[Lantern]

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote...

The non-Bloodmage Arcane Warrior can be a great Caster who turns on melee as needed ... or he can be a sustained spell guy. There is a bit of room for middle ground, but the power seems to really be at either end of the curve [in reference to a mage role versus melee role]. Both of these types of builds are 100% playable without Bloodmage. You don't have to "abandon all RP logic" to have a "viable" AW.

Yes, you CAN play an Arcane Warrior exclusively in a mage role. But at this point are you really using your Arcane Warrior abilities? No, if you are standing back casting spells you are simply a generic mage with 4 wasted talent selections into Arcane Warrior. Conversely, if you want to get into melee and mix it up, you are better served popping sustainables and wearing heavy armor for most of the game.

Yes you can invest hundreds of sovreigns into tweaking your mage, specialize in different specializations, select a narrowly defined set of spells, and/or wait until late game to get rare items in order to push your Arcane Warrior into hybrid effectiveness, but these are all solutions that shouldn't be necessary for a class that is well designed and effective as a caster/melee hybrid as is.

The solutions I proposed eliminate some of the worst abuses of the Arcane Warrior and allow the player to actually cast (with 25%+ fatigue) in combat while still wearing a moderate amount of protection (Medium armor). It prohibits Arcane Warriors from being the god-mode tanks they are now, while freeing them of the mechanical restrictions that prohibit effecient combat spell casting.

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote...
The Bloodmage + AW can have is sustainables and cast too. So evil magic makes something mechanically good better. That's what it's supposed to do. The real problem with Blood Mage in DA is that there is no in game RP consequence for taking it. But that's for another thread.

You weren't claiming that Blood Magic made something that was already solid better, others and yourself have claimed that it is a solution to escape the mana issue for an Arcane Warrior. As Krag and I have tried to point out, that is extremely poor game design - both from a mechanic standpoint and a role play standpoint.

Modifié par Lantern, 17 février 2010 - 06:31 .

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

 

Lantern wrote...
 
You weren't claiming that Blood Magic made something that was already solid better, others and yourself have claimed that it was a solution to escape the mana issue for an Arcane Warrior. As Krag and I have tried to point out, that is extremely poor game design - both from a mechanic standpoint and a role play standpoint.

I think that you are either reading more into what I wrote than I intended or that you are thinking about what other folks have posted here. I've never once said ... "Go Blood Mage to escape the mana issue."
 
In fact I argue that, while Blood Mage allows AW to have mana depleting sustainables to tank that it also allows caster builds to go crazy too. What Blood Mage does isn't specific to the Arcane Warrior, it's just most noticeable there for various reasons including AW popularity.
 
I further argue that, since the high fatigue penalties hit blood magic too, that the combo does in fact have trade-offs as well. I stand firm in saying that non-Blood Mage Arcane Warriors are viable, and a good choice to play in game from both a RP and mechanical perspective.
 
Yes, Blood Mage seems to "let you have your cake and eat it too" when comboed with a tanking AW ... but there is a sort of fools gold there with the fatigue penalty and the lowered HP sometimes shoe-horning what you do tactically.
 
Bad design? Maybe. I still feel that the worst part of the problem is lack of consequences for being a Blood Mage. If folks had to pay an in game penalty to balance out what they can do mechanically I think that you would see a lot less Blood Mage / AW builds.
 

Lantern wrote...
 
Yes, you CAN play an Arcane Warrior exclusively in a mage role. But at this point are you really using your Arcane Warrior abilities? No, if you are standing back casting spells you are simply a generic mage with 4 wasted talent selections into Arcane Warrior. Conversely, if you want to get into melee and mix it up, you are better served popping sustainables and wearing heavy armor for most of the game.

 
Depends.
 
Wearing armor and helms without having to pump Str is a pretty big perk all by itself. It’s one reason that many folks put AW on Wynne. That warrior gear has some NICE perks even to the pure caster ... and you get that for the specialization & knowing first spell alone. You don’t even have to activate Combat Magic to get good mileage out of Arcane Warrior … and it’s a lot better on most main character’s than any NPC.
 
Second, Shimmering Shield is an amazing spell all by itself. You don’t have to worry nearly as much about AoE spells with that thing up for instance. So you got caught in your own Storm of the Century? Not good, but not nearly as bad with Shimmering Shield. Your mage getting overwhelmed by the spider mobs in the deep roads? Shimmering Shield can help.
 
Fade Shroud has mana regeneration and more defenses on top of all the normal melee boosting stuff.
 
Does all this seem to have more use on a melee focused build than a casting one? Sure. But to say that the picks are “wasted” simply isn’t true. I will agree that going 1 or 3 deep in AW is probably best for a caster, but as with many other lines … even if that 4th spell is situational sometimes it’s worth it if you are planning on getting the 3rd spell in a line. (See all the stuff about Glyph of Neutralization)
 
I’ll also point out that I rarely go 4 deep in any of the other non-AW mage specializations. 3 for Blood Mage. 1 or 2 most of the time for Spirit Healer. Haven’t tried Shapeshifter, but that’s the only other one that I would spend 4 slots on if I bothered to ever build a specialized build.
 

Lantern wrote...
As a side, have you really graduated from Vanderbilt? Just curious.

Yep. A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....