101 réponses à ce sujet

[Moogliepie]

KragCulloden wrote...

Ex: "To make a really viable arcane warrior you have to forego all your circle training and law of the land and begin practicing forbidden magic, just to use a legally-sanctioned, circled-trained specialty like arcane warrior."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe AW is neither legally sanctioned nor circle trained. It is an ancient, lost art that you learn from a centuries old elven spirit. For all we know, the circle is even aware of the Arcane Warrior art. 

[Moogliepie]

AuraofMana wrote...

Actually, I went ahead and cheated to see if it was amazing high level. It is, but not compared to any other class. I've played Dragon Age long enough to know when a build is better than another build. But seriously, if you've been playing a build for a few hours and can't decide if it is good enough or not, then you probably shouldn't be advertising any builds on the forums.

2-handed warrior sucks until you get 2H sweep, somewhat late in the game. Then it becomes an absolute beast. 

[fluffymippy]

use Wade's Dragonskin armour, it's medium, when the set is on I have negative fatiuge, adding sustains with that on still let's me cast. not as much but still enough, since you can use mana pots to replenish if you need to. after finishing Awakening, I was still using that armour the entire time. every level I added 1 to willpower and 2 to spell power. with a good sword the runes, and various buffs, I was doing equal damage to a warrior using a 2-handed weapon. I just didn't have the abilites he had to do more. but I could cast which made up for that. I put on massive armour when I first became AW. then realised that was dumb and used much lighter armour to better effect.

[ObserverStatus]

Don't know what the problem is, I played through the original and expansion as an Arcane Mage and it worked great. I just wished that they would include more unique gear.  With the right buffs up, my mage could survive more punishment than my party's MT.

Modifié par bobobo878, 18 mars 2010 - 04:50 .

[Nachoman Randy 666]

Most people in this thread don't know what they are talking about, (Latern and auroraofmana in particular).



If you are a noob and whant to read about arcane warriors, don't listen to any crap comming from their fingers.

[Bling75]

Nachoman Randy 666 wrote...

Most people in this thread don't know what they are talking about, (Latern and auroraofmana in particular).

If you are a noob and whant to read about arcane warriors, don't listen to any crap comming from their fingers.

This.

I'm just stunned by the sheer idiocy of some of these statements...

[Sereaph502]

Hmm..The only effective way of being in melee is wearing massive armor?

Guess my dual wielding warrior in wade's superior dragonscale (not dragonbone, that would be massive armor) who can tank better than my dedicated tank character as well as do 50% of the parties total DPS is doing it wrong, I'm going to go and tell her that she has to be wearing massive armor to be any good in melee.

Modifié par Sereaph502, 18 mars 2010 - 06:34 .

[TBastian]

Off with his head.

[ccconda]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Hmm..The only effective way of being in melee is wearing massive armor?

Guess my dual wielding warrior in wade's superior dragonscale (not dragonbone, that would be massive armor) who can tank better than my dedicated tank character as well as do 50% of the parties total DPS is doing it wrong, I'm going to go and tell her that she has to be wearing massive armor to be any good in melee.

Yeah man, and my rogue in light armor definitely can't melee worth a sh!t.

[AuraofMana]

Nachoman Randy 666 wrote...

Most people in this thread don't know what they are talking about, (Latern and auroraofmana in particular).

If you are a noob and whant to read about arcane warriors, don't listen to any crap comming from their fingers.

I don't want to ruin it for you but versatility is useless if you are not soloing this game.  Notice how the game is about teamwork and teamwork is best accomplished by being specialized?  Yeah, Arcane Warrior is crap.  Yes, that's even with the Awakening new specializations and new talents.  I'd comment on the new gear, but it doesn't seem to have any gear for Arcane Warriors.
The point is, Arcane Warrior is not a top end build.  It can't do a Warrior's job as well as a Warrior, and it can't do a Mage's job as well as a Mage.  It can't hold aggro as a tank (especially with the new Warrior talents and Guardian specialization).  It can't out-DPS a DW Backstab Rogue in physical damage.  It can't out-DPS a pure caster Mage in magical damage.  It sure as well can't CC and heal/buff as well as a pure caster Mage.  Hell, it doesn't even offer other utilities, like lockpicking, stealing, and trap disarming like a Rogue.  It doesn't offer the unique ranged physical damage like an archer Warrior or Rogue.  What's the point of this build?  It doesn't offer anything unique, and it isn't top end.  The entire point of game balance is that every kind of build is EQUALLY viable.  Arcane Warrior, along with Shapeshifter, are worthless specializations.  There are something else you can take that are better.  This is why the specialization needs to be fixed.
Not that I really care by this point.  Even if you can somehow cast spells somehow with your horrible Mana with unsheathed weapons, this build is still not specialized and not top end.  No point.  Interesting concept, poor implementation.
If you want to play it for RP reasons or to try something new, be my guest.  If you are trying to force the concept as a top end build and equally as viable as others, then you aren't going to be able to.  That is all I am saying.  Go ahead and argue all you want, but nothing you do is going to fix this horrible build without some change to the game itself.

Modifié par AuraofMana, 19 mars 2010 - 10:27 .

[TBastian]

Versatility is a quirk that can be overpowered, used correctly. You say that you think Arcane Warrior and Shapeshifter are "useless" because they lack focus. Tell me, does your Blood Mage still carry around a "tanker" for his party? Because Shapeshifters and Arcane Warriors don't need one, they can pick a full offensive party if they want, throwing caution to the winds because their versatility allows them to do so. +1 Arcane Warrior/Shapeshifter.
You brag about your mages being powerful at doing AoE damage, and yet from what I've seen your builds take a lot of disables. Shapeshifters do not need to hold back in terms of nuking and can pick a purely offensive spell selection, give or take a few heals, because they can deal with all the threat their offensive spells can cause and survive being mobbed far more efficiently than a Bloodmage walking around with Blood Magic on. Friendly fire is less an issue when your mage can enter a fight head on and begin nuking immediately. A Shapeshifter is actually at its strongest with maxed spellpower, but unlike a Blood Mage it doesn't need disables beyond what Primal already has. And for the record, good Shapeshifters never change forms unless needed. +1 Shapeshifter
Can your mage reliably do an extra 500+ damage to a boss while disabling it 6-8 seconds, or do you just stand there spamming disables that barely last long? Does your mage have friendly AoE options even after he runs out of mana and pots are in cooldown, or do you just auto-attack? What do you do when enemy casters resist Mana Clash? Do you still take time to create setups with your warrior or do emergency aggro management for your mage? Shapeshifters (Awakening-wise anyway) don't need to. +1 Shapeshifter.
Arcane Warriors are very difficult to kill. Considering that in Awakening all the other classes have now attained some means of possibly outdamaging a mage, even AoE-wise, he is basically the mage best suited for optimizing his party's strengths (affliction hex + spirit warrior? haste + rogues? constant miasma? constant aura/field use, etc). He'll remain a sub-standard mage himself but point is that party-wise, DPS potential goes up. You can argue that a non-AW mage can take these spells for himself, but the Arcane Warrior can control the battlefield without actually worrying that he could possibly die. +2 Arcane Warrior

Modifié par TBastian, 19 mars 2010 - 04:28 .

[ccconda]

I'm a level 6 mage, not in arcane warrior yet, I've got stone armor and flame weapons, wearing light armor. I'm hacking and slashing with as much defense as alistair (just less health).

[AuraofMana]

[quote]Versatility is a quirk that can be overpowered, used correctly.[/quote]
Only if you plan to solo the game.  The point of focus is that if everyone does his or her own job well, the effect is greater than 1 + 1.  That's the basis of teamwork and has existed since the first RPG.

[quote]You say that you think Arcane Warrior and Shapeshifter are "useless" because they lack focus. Tell me, does your Blood Mage still carry around a "tanker" for his party?[/quote]
Yes, yes he does.  With the new Arcane Shield upgrade, it is so hard to drop a Mage.  Not to mention even if I somehow didn't get that, why would I need to tank ever?  I am the CC / Nuker Mage, I don't tank, I shutdown enemies and deal massive amount of damage.  The Warrior Tank would be the one doing that because he can hold and manage aggro better than anyone else.

[quote]Because Shapeshifters and Arcane Warriors don't need one, they can pick a full offensive party if they want, throwing caution to the winds because their versatility allows them to do so. +1 Arcane Warrior/Shapeshifter.[/quote]
Sure, they don't "need" one, but they also can't out DPS and out CC a pure caster Mage.  Jack of all trades, master of none.

[quote]You brag about your mages being powerful at doing AoE damage, and yet from what I've seen your builds take a lot of disables.[/quote]
Because like I said, you only need a few spells to end a fight.  Blood Wound, Keeper spells, and Draining Aura is about every damage spells you need.  Using Blood Wound and Draining Aura itself instantly wipes the room in a matter of seconds.  What's the point of getting more spells that I'll never use?  As for CC, the more you have, the better.  This is because all spells have reduced effects on bosses, thus getting more CC can keep the boss shutdown even longer.  With the additional of Time Spiral, there is no reason why you can't keep the boss CC'd for at least the majority of the fight.

[quote]Shapeshifters do not need to hold back in terms of nuking and can pick a purely offensive spell selection, give or take a few heals, because they can deal with all the threat their offensive spells can cause and survive being mobbed far more efficiently than a Bloodmage walking around with Blood Magic on.[/quote]
I have no idea where you get the notion that I have to hold back on offense.  I never hold back on offense.  You must be building your tank wrong if you pull aggro that easily.  Also, like I said, monsters die within seconds.  Aggro is a none issue.  Not to mention you have HEAVY CC to deal with anything that gets past the tank.  And only a fail Blood Mage walks around with Blood Magic on.  It's there to use Blood Wound and you turn it off immediately afterward.

[quote]Friendly fire is less an issue when your mage can enter a fight head on and begin nuking immediately.[/quote]
It is when you need to use it in the middle of a fight.  Monsters don't all pour in at once, and fighting off a wave when another wave jumps on your tank is a moment when you need to use your spells.  Friendly fire prevents you from doing that unless you are willing to damage your tank.  Spells like Cone of Cold you can move and position yourself so you don't hit your NPCs, but certain spells, like Fireball, will most likely hit your NPCs.

[quote]A Shapeshifter is actually at its strongest with maxed spellpower, but unlike a Blood Mage it doesn't need disables beyond what Primal already has. And for the record, good Shapeshifters never change forms unless needed. +1 Shapeshifter[/quote]
No, you need Strength to boost your melee damage, not to mention the form damage is based on your weapon, which means to deal more damage, you want to get something other than a staff.  If you pump enough points into Strength, that's not an issue.  However, if not, then you'll need Arcane Warrior to back that up. *Nevermind, I just remember you can't even use sustainables in shapeshifting form.  This is even worse.  This means you lose out in terms of Spellpower, which means your nuke deal LESS damage and your spells are more likely to be resisted.  Again, this is what happen when you don't specialize.

[quote]Can your mage reliably do an extra 500+ damage to a boss while disabling it 6-8 seconds, or do you just stand there spamming disables that barely last long?[/quote]
Petrify lasts 20 seconds, and on bosses, that may be reduced to 4-5 seconds.  Glyph of Paralysis lasts just as long.  Cone of Cold lasts at least 2-3 seconds on bosses.  Sleep lasts quite a long time too.  That's just a few CC spells you can get.  Because you were always forced to put points into Strength, your Spellpower is not high, thus CC spells seem weak to you.
And you know how I deal more damage than you?  Here is how.  I CC the boss, and the boss stays CC'd for at least 70% of the fight.  Spells such as Winter's Grasp and Arcane Bolt deals very good single damage, not to mention Keeper spells that deal rediculous amount of damage.  That alone both out-DPS and out-CC your character.  With a DW Backstab Rogue in the party, the Rogue gets free backstabs twice every second.  A well-built DW Backstab Rogue can deal around 150 in Origins, and at least 200 or even more in Awakening.  2 seconds in the fight, I am already out-DPSing what you are doing in 6-8 seconds, not to mention my Mage is free to cast other spells and the boss will be CC'd for the ENTIRE FIGHT, not just when you can Overwhelm twice.

[quote]Does your mage have friendly AoE options even after he runs out of mana and pots are in cooldown, or do you just auto-attack?[/quote]
What Mage are you playing?  I never run out of Mana, and I never put a single point into Willpower.  I never need to chuck potions either.  Blood Wound alone takes care most of the fight in the game, and against a boss, you should equip certain spells like Mana Drain and Spellbloom.  In addition, you should have a dedicated healer/buffer who can Rejuvenate you.
Let's pretend I don't have all of that, I still don't see how you can't mitigate with potion chucking.

[quote]What do you do when enemy casters resist Mana Clash?[/quote]
Are you kidding me?  Bosses don't even resist my Mana Clash.  250 Spellpower is almost impossible to resist.  For the sake of argument, let's suppose an enemy caster does resist my Mana Clash.  Well, he's probably going to get CC'd from my numerous CC spells anyway, I don't see the problem.  Just tell your Rogue to attack him first and he'll drop with a backstab or two.

[quote]Do you still take time to create setups with your warrior or do emergency aggro management for your mage? Shapeshifters (Awakening-wise anyway) don't need to. +1 Shapeshifter.[/quote]
You built your Warrior tank wrong then, because I never aggro manage.  I throw spells as fast as they cooldown, and as much as I need.  Getting "I'm Kind of a Big Deal" without actually dying once is not hard.
And why would I need to setup anything with my Warrior?  All he has to do is spam damage talents every time it cooldowns, and Taunt whenever a monster is attacking someone else.  Turn all sustainables on, monsters are all either focused on him or CC'd.

[quote]Arcane Warriors are very difficult to kill.[/quote]
A Warrior tank is even harder to kill, especially one with a Mage in the party that CC everything so they don't even get to attack most of the time.

[quote]Considering that in Awakening all the other classes have now attained some means of possibly outdamaging a mage, even AoE-wise[/quote]
I would like to see someone out-AOE DPS a caster Mage in Awakening.  Keeper skills alone will win, not to mention Battlemage and Blood Mage.

[quote]he is basically the mage best suited for optimizing his party's strengths (affliction hex + spirit warrior? haste + rogues? constant miasma? constant aura/field use, etc).[/quote]
CC/Nuker Mage should take care of Affliction.  Healer/Buff Mage should take care of Haste.  However, Haste is bad because the Rogue is already running Momentum.  Miasma is a great spell, but I've got better spells to spend my talent points and Mana on.

[quote]He'll remain a sub-standard mage himself but point is that party-wise, DPS potential goes up.[/quote]
Wrong, nothing ever outDPS a DW Backstab Rogue.  Constant backstab thanks to heavy CC makes party damage go up.  Not to mention now you can actually deal rediculous damage while you CC.

[quote]You can argue that a non-AW mage can take these spells for himself, but the Arcane Warrior can control the battlefield without actually worrying that he could possibly die. +2 Arcane Warrior[/quote]
And so can my Mage.  I don't know how you built a caster Mage, but you are doing it wrong.  Glyph of Repulsion alone makes you almost impossible to even touch.  Mind Blast is great for emergencies, and CCing enemies actually mean you go out and keep enemies CC'd.  If you are playing a CC Mage and your enemies are getting plenty of opportunities to be hitting on you, then you are not playing your character right.

Modifié par AuraofMana, 20 mars 2010 - 05:50 .

[TBastian]

You know in time this arguement should settle itself. It's rather pointless to argue it this way unless we start showing each other vids.



Just a correction: Shapeshifters don't need to boost strength. There's a build that boosts strength and works, yes, but it's a pretty exotic build.

[ObserverStatus]

The arcane warrior spec isn't broken. Don't "fix" it.

[beancounter501]

AuraofMana wrote...

Snip!

I hate doing line by line posting.  The final argument - anything and I mean anything a caster mage can do - an arcane warrior/shapeshifter build can do.  Seriously, we are talking one spec and four spells.  The only difference - an AW/SS can melee/tank on demand. Will they melee/tank better then a warrior - No.  Will they do as much damage as dual weld rogue - No.  Will they die as quick as a pure mage - No.  Can they do just as much Nuking/CC as a pure mage build - YES!  And that is the point.  In your own build post you stated that you can get 44 talents.  So please explain to me how 4 spells will somehow gimp your mage.  The only time time it makes a difference is in the low levels.  After level 15 you have so many options 4 spells makes little difference.

[AuraofMana]

I would like to see you throw a spell with the heavy Fatigue you have as an Arcane Warrior and the fact that you need to UNSHEATH your weapon when doing so. I would also like to see you try to throw spells while in shapeshifted forms. That's the problem with those specs, they try to be melee and caster, and utility doesn't work as well as specialization in a team-oriented game.

[beancounter501]

AuraofMana wrote...

Snip!

I hate doing line by line posting.  The final argument - anything and I mean anything a caster mage can do - an arcane warrior/shapeshifter build can do.  Seriously, we are talking one spec and four spells.  The only difference - an AW/SS can melee/tank on demand. Will they melee/tank better then a warrior - No.  Will they do as much damage as dual weld rogue - No.  Will they die as quick as a pure mage - No.  Can they do just as much Nuking/CC as a pure mage build - YES!  And that is the point - they can easily nuke as well as a pure mage PLUS handle being attacked in melee.  In your own build post you stated that you can get 44 talents.  So please explain to me how 4 spells will somehow gimp your mage.  The only time time it makes a difference is in the low levels.  After level 15 you have so many options 4 spells makes little difference.

Modifié par beancounter501, 21 mars 2010 - 01:18 .

[AuraofMana]

Here is how an Arcane Warrior play:
1. They have all sustainables on, they have such a high fatigue and so much mana on reserve that it is unlikely they can toss many spells.  Unless you pour points into Willpower to expand your mana pool, you will never get to throw many spells.  If you pour points into Willpower, your spells are not as powerful as a pure caster, not to mention you still won't be able to use that many spells.

2. You play like a regular Mage.  You lack the damage of one of the specialization that provides it.  When you need to melee, you need to switch armor and weapon, and then turn on all your sustainables.  You have fun doing that in the MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT because a pure caster Mage would have finished all the enemies before then, not to mention they won't even have a chance to attack as they are all CC'd.

Those 4 spells do matter because they will drastically change the way you play your Mage.  I don't have to sheath my weapon when casting because I am carrying a staff (which boosts my Spellpower).  Let's say your AW also has a staff for casting, you have to switch weapons to cast spells.  You can do it instantly with pause, but then you have to turn off Combat Magic if you have it on due to the high fatigue.  To get back into melee, you have to turn Combat Magic on and probably turn on sustainables.  Why the hell should you even bother with that when you can just CC everything to death and let your ACTUAL WARRIOR TANK do the tanking?  If you play your caster Mage right, nothing should be hitting you.  If you are getting constantly attacked as a CC / Nuker Mage, you are playing your character WRONG.

[beancounter501]

Hmm, my post edit turned out to be some double post. Strange.



Heavy fatgiue - It all depends on how you play your character. I can easily equip my AW with medium/heavy armor and end up with a low level fatigue PLUS huge mana regen due to gear. I can also hot key a staff. LOL, I usually start each fight as a pure caster. Half the time I do not even bother pulling out a sword. Everything is already dead. Anything your build can do - I can do. Plus I have an armor level twice yours. How horrible I have an extra 15% fatigue.





The shapeshifter build is a little more tricky. But keep in mind to change shapes is only two or three seconds. And down shifting back to a pure caster takes 1 second. Again - ANYTHING you can do as a pure caster an AW/SS can do. It is all about the options.

[ccconda]

Give your arcane warrior less tanking gear and more normal rogue-esque gear and you're fine. This is a silly thread. Make yourself unable to cast spells, and you'll be unable to cast spells. dur

[Schizofriendlia]

AuraofMana wrote...

Here is how an Arcane Warrior play:
1. They have all sustainables on, they have such a high fatigue and so much mana on reserve that it is unlikely they can toss many spells.  Unless you pour points into Willpower to expand your mana pool, you will never get to throw many spells.  If you pour points into Willpower, your spells are not as powerful as a pure caster, not to mention you still won't be able to use that many spells.

2. You play like a regular Mage.  You lack the damage of one of the specialization that provides it.  When you need to melee, you need to switch armor and weapon, and then turn on all your sustainables.  You have fun doing that in the MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT because a pure caster Mage would have finished all the enemies before then, not to mention they won't even have a chance to attack as they are all CC'd.

Or...

3. They have a few offensive sustainables on (haste, and flaming weapons for me) start off by throwing around some spells activate Combat Magic and some defensive sustainables if neccessary, then the fight is over. Casted spells, used sustainables, was very good.

I have never intentionally used my AW to tank. The better tanking mage class is SS because a bear can tank bosses without having to worry about grabs, and can tank beasts without worrying about overwhelm. The SS tank is balanced nicley by the fact that it cannot cast spells while in that mode, why should AW be balanced so much differently?

Modifié par Schizofriendlia, 21 mars 2010 - 10:20 .

[InfiniteAvenger]

Critical_Error wrote...

While I love the AW class, having played it twice, I dont feel that the problem is that they tank too well, but rather they cast too poorly. Sure, they can handle a beating more than a SnB warrior with equal gear, but one thing they cant match is the agro of a warrior. Honestly, Taunt is probably the most useful spell as it allows you to do anything you want to a whole group of enemies. For my AW's to do that to a group of enemies I need to seriously micro manage, and even then it is hard. I will say that this doesnt apply to single target threat as a Death Hex is amazing and super snappy agro. But in general, AW have more tank, but way less agro management.<br />
<br />
The bigger problem is that CM has 50% fatigue. That is friggin huge. It means that you cant really cast spells without popping in and out. On top of that you have huge mana suckers that you really need like SS. Also, as you mentioned, most of the appeal of AW is that you dont have to remain confined to robes, but those armor sets that are more battle-mage like also have huge fatigue. Right now with CM up and some passives Im at around 80% fatigue. This basically means that I can blow my load once and Im done all fight magic wise. Sure I have BM, but at times it is too risky to use. Id want something done to allow more casting without going OOM so fast.<br />
<br />
Should note that currently AWs are pretty focused on SS. This is a huge mana hog, but also a long CD. So you want to manage mana so that you never turn it off, because if you do then you lose sufficient defense to allow you to safely use BM, which in turn makes it so you dont have fuel for spells, which in turn makes you lose agro.

WTF is BM?  oh, wait... What The F*** is BM?

For the record:  Standard conversation initials require you to state the full word(s) at least once in the conversation prior to using initials.  This is obviously to avoid confusion, misunderstanding, illegible sentences, reader headache, and most importantly a large mallot dropping on the writer's head.

Please, clarify what you are using initials for before using them.  It is the polite thing to do in community conversations.  Thank you and good day.  I said good day!

-IA

Modifié par InfiniteAvenger, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[mousestalker]

BM is Blood Magic, which allows you to use your health (blood) for spells instead of mana.

[TBastian]

A bit extreme, resurrecting a 2 year old thread just to rant on grammar or conversation conventions.

Modifié par TBastian, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:09 .