143 réponses à ce sujet

[S3RV0]

Gabochido wrote...

If the game constantly gives you powerful or valuable loot, then it becomes too easy or you end up with a ton of useless cash (since you would have bought everything you needed). If we limit the number of lootable corpses and chests then you might feel there's just not enough loot!

We made DA to give you a large number of loots so you can gather a nice collection of things to use or sell, but the power and value has to be kept down so the game remains a challenge and buying items involves important choices. The special items must be rare enough to feel special otherwise they just get lost in the crow and having chests that contain generic stuff make the ones that contain special stuff all the more special.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of a loot system do you think would make the game more enjoyable and satisfying? I'm sure the feedback could come in useful for future development.

That would be a perfectly valid point if there actually was good rare loot.

As it stands now; I'm lvl 21 playing on nightmare right at the end of the game and I'm still wearing Blood Dragon armor, Warden's Commander armor and using Starfang... all DLC items.

Legion of the Dead armor is bad, Epic Dragonscale (forget the exact name) is bad other than +fire resists (ironically, if I was able to get enough fire resist to kill the dragons in the first place... do I really need more?) etc. It was extremely disappointing to kill the High Dragon and see a massive loot table of crap items. It was equally disappointing to kill the Brood Mother and get a +healing plate chest piece. whoopidy doo.

Also on the note of loot, please show the hard numbers for set bonuses. It's very annoying to have to write down my stats, equip a piece of armor to complete a set and add up what stats have changed to get an accurate detail of the set bonuses. ie instead of saying "grants an increase to constitution and attack", simply put "+5con +3attack" etc

[WillieStyle]

Gabochido wrote...

If the game constantly gives you powerful or valuable loot, then it becomes too easy or you end up with a ton of useless cash (since you would have bought everything you needed). If we limit the number of lootable corpses and chests then you might feel there's just not enough loot!

We made DA to give you a large number of loots so you can gather a nice collection of things to use or sell, but the power and value has to be kept down so the game remains a challenge and buying items involves important choices. The special items must be rare enough to feel special otherwise they just get lost in the crow and having chests that contain generic stuff make the ones that contain special stuff all the more special.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of a loot system do you think would make the game more enjoyable and satisfying? I'm sure the feedback could come in useful for future development.

This is one of the things I really like about DA:O.
Gold is actually valuable and scarce (at least until almost the very end of the game) .  This is the first single-player RPG I've played in which that's true.

You also avoided the barbie-doll effect.  Instead of heaping stats unto armor, you gave the player the ability to significantly increase attributes as they level.  That's brilliant imo. It allows players to customize their character as they see fit.  It also makes me feel more like I'm the one getting more powerful not my wardrope.

[SheffSteel]

@gabochido



I think the balance is about right. More rare items would devalue those items. More loot overall would cause secondary problems with inventory space. Increasing the value of the loot would cause inflation or lower the effective difficulty level. So maybe slightly more valuable loot at lower difficulty levels would work.

[surrealitycheck]

Gabo, the problem is that there is SUCH a dearth of good loot your party often ends up wearing dlc items for large portions of the game!



The problem is really that there is a very binary nature to most of the loot - it's either wtfsuperpowered (like that amazing chasind maul that gives you SEVENTY-FIVE stamina), and gives you real new options - or it's really not that great (the maul you're given in orzammar springs to mind).



The first suggestion I would make is going to automatically be heeded just by having had the experience of the game the first time round, and that is to make itemisation more consistent and interesting. Special abilities on items, or genuinely unique item properties, would go a long way to making items more interesting. The stats on items should in general reflect vaguely some kind of optimum, as the slightly random stat allocations on items often are slightly rage inducing!



Second, I would suggest adding intermediate quality random loot. What I mean by that is bridge the gap between the super items and the dross by having random drops, which can be found either by chance drops off ordinary mobs or at a higher rate from the various different tiers of chest, which are decent (but still not competitive with the really good items). This allows you to be confident in the ability of your player to have gear relevant to their level, while not overwhelming them in amazing loot. It also keeps the uniqueness of the super loot from vendors / quests as it is clearly a tier below, quality-wise.

[Haexpane]

SheffSteel wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

That certainly works, but I find my inventory fills up way too fast, thankfully I paid $7 for an item chest

Why would you carry stuff to a box and drop it in, when you can carry the stuff directly to a merchant and turn it into cash?

Because I don't know if I will need that stuff later or not... or I dont have the DEX/STR score yet or I was saving it for another companion or it was a quest item or....

[CaptBurn]

I will gladly suggest how you can make it better!

Quit thinking that by making 'bad loot' it makes the game feel more rewarding... It doesn't. It makes it feel bland.

The solution is simple. Make the encounters more diverse and challenging so the game's mechanic supports a more diverse and stronger loot set. Then, instead of dictating to the player what they must wear and how they should play, give a MASSIVE selection of options that the _player_ can then wade through and choose to wear based on how _they_ want their character to play. They don't need to be 'over powered' or 'uber'. They just need to be DIVERSE and allow for many character options and builds. I'm actually surprised by this oversight by Bioware as NWN had a pretty good diverse built in loot table with lots of great art for the equipment whereas DA:O has a extremely limited loot pallete and most of it all uses the same art so you always have that sort of 'midevil generic' look going on. Even using the toolset it's not possible to make something truly cool looking with epic feel as the art just doesn't exist (without adding new art in). The blood dragon armor was a step in the right direction, but... well, one isn't enough.

The loot table, and it's complete lack of imagination and creativity, is actually one of my greatest pet peaves with this game. I can wear the same loot I received at level 5 and progress the entire game without any problems. The FR dragonbone set isn't even a necessity to take down the High Dragon! Wait... You can't even GET the set until you beat the only encounter that you would ever need if for!  Genius! 

It feels like you really don't need any of the upgrades and when you do get them, they really don't look or feel a whole lot different than the generic stuff. There's no real 'reward' feel to having them. There's a reason the mega epics/legendaries in WoW are completely blown out and epic looking, it's because it completely differentiates them from the generic fare... And, it works! It makes you want that uberness look (people collect the ones with bad stats even just because they look good!).

Bottomline, a more diverse loot table that allows the player creative options instead of bland, unimaginative, fodder is a far better solution. They don't need to be overpowered, but better thought out. The encounters in the game can be scaled in difficulty to accommodate if necessary (and the player can determine that anyway without penalty so who really cares at that point if they choose overpowered gear when they can just hit easy mode anytime they want to spam through any encounter?).

I just don't get why the loot table is so freakin' BAD in DA:O. Was/is a MAJOR disappointment and drawback in the game, in my opinion.

Modifié par CaptBurn, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[Kelston]

Gabochido wrote...

Just out of curiosity, what kind of a loot system do you think would make the game more enjoyable and satisfying? I'm sure the feedback could come in useful for future development.

One that at least has a larger range of progression.

I would expect a lieutenant to generally have consistently better gear than some random grunt and frequently this just isn't true.

Too many items are too specialized. Like rings that are +5/10% damage to a specific spell type. Well great, I get +5% nature damage... except I don't have nature spells nor do I have a party member with nature spells and as a result, I got a "superior" quality item that is of no use to anyone.

[Hanover Fist 1970]

Gabochido wrote...

If the game constantly gives you powerful or valuable loot, then it becomes too easy or you end up with a ton of useless cash (since you would have bought everything you needed). If we limit the number of lootable corpses and chests then you might feel there's just not enough loot!

We made DA to give you a large number of loots so you can gather a nice collection of things to use or sell, but the power and value has to be kept down so the game remains a challenge and buying items involves important choices. The special items must be rare enough to feel special otherwise they just get lost in the crow and having chests that contain generic stuff make the ones that contain special stuff all the more special.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of a loot system do you think would make the game more enjoyable and satisfying? I'm sure the feedback could come in useful for future development.

Let me first say I love the game I find it to be a very good work of art. The one and only gripe I can even muster in regards to loot.

The progression of loot collecting suffers in DA:o, example, after obtaining starfang at an early level, I'm still using it at 19. For me, It's not about uberloot every where so much as feeling I'm progressing to something better in the next level.
I just feel that I should be changing equipment on a more regular basis, not everytime I turn around mind you ,but certainly more than just a few times through out an entire game. 

[Haexpane]

Gabochido wrote...

If the game constantly gives you powerful or valuable loot, then it becomes too easy or you end up with a ton of useless cash (since you would have bought everything you needed). If we limit the number of lootable corpses and chests then you might feel there's just not enough loot!

We made DA to give you a large number of loots so you can gather a nice collection of things to use or sell, but the power and value has to be kept down so the game remains a challenge and buying items involves important choices. The special items must be rare enough to feel special otherwise they just get lost in the crow and having chests that contain generic stuff make the ones that contain special stuff all the more special.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of a loot system do you think would make the game more enjoyable and satisfying? I'm sure the feedback could come in useful for future development.

That's an understandable approach.   I think the problem is the scaling.  For instance someone else mentioned a rogue w/ LP skill, they still can't unlock chests...and when you do it's a generic weapon.

Tons of vendor trash in chests would make sense if the inventory wasn't so small.

As far as other systems and the "too much cash" problem there are multiple paths to solve that issue.

Money sinks - armor needing repairs, enchantments could cost money, quests could cost money as investments.

Vendor's having some of the best items in the game is a bit jarring to see sometimes.  Like you spend all this time fighting baddies, and get nothing but junk from them.. so much junk that I end up destroying half of it and can't even fit it all in the pack.

Then you go to a vendor and realize the reason no good loot dropped is because the vendor was hoarding it?

Rune slots on armor + more runes dropping from reds/yellows would help the feeling of "wow that was worth it" instead of "ick a dorf hammer" or "great another tier 4 item I wont use.

[Gabo]

S3RV0 wrote...
As it stands now; I'm lvl 21 playing on nightmare right at the end of the game and I'm still wearing Blood Dragon armor, Warden's Commander armor and using Starfang... all DLC items.

Well, the DLC items are supposed to be powerful and exciting. Also, you have to equip 4 party members...

(STRATEGY HINT SPOILER)

...and  you should make sure all your party members are at least adequately equipped even if they are not active, just in case...

(END OF SPOILER)

So that leaves plenty of room to use the other rare items in the game. I believe we balanced the loot quite well but, as lord Zoeller once said, there is always room for improvement and I'm sure we will be able to use some of this great feedback you guys and gals are giving. But remember that we had to make a game that would appeal to those who like a challenge just as much as to those who like feeling powerful and we tried to hit the midway point in this aspect. 

Modifié par Gabochido, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:06 .

[Haexpane]

S3RV0 wrote...

Gabochido wrote...

If the game constantly gives you powerful or valuable loot, then it becomes too easy or you end up with a ton of useless cash (since you would have bought everything you needed). If we limit the number of lootable corpses and chests then you might feel there's just not enough loot!

We made DA to give you a large number of loots so you can gather a nice collection of things to use or sell, but the power and value has to be kept down so the game remains a challenge and buying items involves important choices. The special items must be rare enough to feel special otherwise they just get lost in the crow and having chests that contain generic stuff make the ones that contain special stuff all the more special.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of a loot system do you think would make the game more enjoyable and satisfying? I'm sure the feedback could come in useful for future development.

That would be a perfectly valid point if there actually was good rare loot.

As it stands now; I'm lvl 21 playing on nightmare right at the end of the game and I'm still wearing Blood Dragon armor, Warden's Commander armor and using Starfang... all DLC items.

Legion of the Dead armor is bad, Epic Dragonscale (forget the exact name) is bad other than +fire resists (ironically, if I was able to get enough fire resist to kill the dragons in the first place... do I really need more?) etc. It was extremely disappointing to kill the High Dragon and see a massive loot table of crap items. It was equally disappointing to kill the Brood Mother and get a +healing plate chest piece. whoopidy doo.

Also on the note of loot, please show the hard numbers for set bonuses. It's very annoying to have to write down my stats, equip a piece of armor to complete a set and add up what stats have changed to get an accurate detail of the set bonuses. ie instead of saying "grants an increase to constitution and attack", simply put "+5con +3attack" etc

While I would not have worded it as strongly, these are some good points.  After you kill the dragon you get armor that would be good for fighting that dragon... that makes sense if there were more dragons

Brood Mother was a major let down

I'm also using Starfang, but I banked Blood Dragon in favor of the Epic Dragon crafted .. just because I like it better

A bit of a bummer to be using Starfang for 10 levels straight and never having a reason to switch.

[vhatever]

Consider lockpicking as simply increasing your gold supply. Use the increased gold supply to buy the awesome accessories/weapons/armors/tomes from the marchents.

[Kelston]

Gabochido wrote...

For those that love the feeling of getting better items, I recommend modding or waiting for a mod, but remember that we had to make a game that would appeal to those who like a challenge just as much as to those who like feeling powerful and we tried to hit the midway point in this aspect.

The major problem with the midway point is that the players who want the added challenge of not having uber phat lewts can simply choose not to use the loot whereas the players that are awestruck by amazing loot will never get the amazing loot since there is none in existence outside of the user created mod items which are ridiculous cheat items instead of amazing loot items.

[S3RV0]

Gabochido wrote...

S3RV0 wrote...
As it stands now; I'm lvl 21 playing on nightmare right at the end of the game and I'm still wearing Blood Dragon armor, Warden's Commander armor and using Starfang... all DLC items.

Well, the DLC items are supposed to be powerful and exciting. Also, you have to equip 4 party members...

(STRATEGY HINT SPOILER)

...and  you should make sure all your party members are at least adequately equipped even if they are not active, just in case...

(END OF SPOILER)

So that leaves plenty of room to use the other rare items in the game. Judging from the mostly positive responses I believe we balanced the loot quite well but, as lord Zoeller once said, there is always room for improvement.

For those that love the feeling of getting better items, I recommend modding or waiting for a mod, but remember that we had to make a game that would appeal to those who like a challenge just as much as to those who like feeling powerful and we tried to hit the midway point in this aspect.

haha well I love a challenge (haven't found it yet breezing through nightmare) but downing a boss and getting at least one piece of loot that's worth upgrading to would be nice.

ps, I freaking love the game. I have 104.5hrs logged over two toons, just saying some better loot aside from the loot I paid for with real money would be great.

[KaaZe]

I don't think people are asking for "better" loot, they are asking for more diversity in the "good loot". The game right now seems to a few epic pieces that only suit this or that way of building a character. Maybe introduce a more advance crafting system then just the enchants. Anyways, I like the fact that there isn't a bundle of epic loot everywhere, keeps the game more fun.

[Livemmo]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

The value over the happiness you feel over finding good loot is compared to its rarity.

Sorry for the wow reference but... taking that as an example consider the first epics in vanilla wow. How extremely glad you got over those. Compared to how glad you became over epics in WOTLK. "yay ... another epic... great..." /sarcasm.

RARE LOOT placed at logical places and found on hard to kill bosses = Good.
Epics everywhere all over all the time = Apathetic view on gear and removes challenge.

While I do semi agree with this, you cant honestly say vanilla wow was actually any good (loot wise). I mean, 40 people to a raid and 1 item drops you need. Whats your chances? Loot was rare not because it didnt drop, but because you simply could not obtain it when it did.

I dont want to stay on the wow topic for any more than I have already, because honestly the devs are killing it. But I do need to draw some comparision. You do need to reward players for harder boss battles. Reloading a save 20 times before finally downing something then only getting 20x fire arrow isnt exactly fun.

I'm not a game designer so I dont know exactly how to fix this, but something does need to be done. Obviously 'epic quality' loot shouldnt be dropping off wolves, but more variety in the loot obtainable would be nice. World loot may or may not be an issue, but boss loot certainly is.

[CaptBurn]

But, you didn't create a challenge at all. So, you are saying you failed at your goal of 'making a game that wo appeal to those who like a challenge'?



You can get Starfang practically the moment you leave lothering at lvl 5-7.. there is no better weapon in the game!



What challenge when you can 'on the fly' adjust the difficulty level to suit your needs? How is this any different than _choosing_ to buff your guy in uber gear? It's the same thing. If someone wants to _choose_ to play the more difficult path they will do so... whether the option to easy mode is there or not. If you turned off the ability to change the difficulty on demand (without any penalty mind you), then you could argue your point. But, as it stands... It is simply not valid.



Regardless, my suggestion of creating a more _diverse_ loot set with lots of alternatives (good loot does not mean uber/overpowering/gamebreaking, ya know?) that give players options to play with.



I hope the art can be added to/modified easily in the toolset by gifted folks (I can use the toolset to make stuff, but the art is beyond my scope... that's for sure) because the bland look of stuff is pretty dismal when you consider the highest quality stuff you can get looks the same as the worst quality stuff but with stats (blood dragon being only exception).

[Haexpane]

Gabochido wrote...

S3RV0 wrote...
As it stands now; I'm lvl 21 playing on nightmare right at the end of the game and I'm still wearing Blood Dragon armor, Warden's Commander armor and using Starfang... all DLC items.

Well, the DLC items are supposed to be powerful and exciting. Also, you have to equip 4 party members...

(STRATEGY HINT SPOILER)

...and  you should make sure all your party members are at least adequately equipped even if they are not active, just in case...

(END OF SPOILER)

So that leaves plenty of room to use the other rare items in the game. Judging from the mostly positive responses I believe we balanced the loot quite well but, as lord Zoeller once said, there is always room for improvement.

For those that love the feeling of getting better items, I recommend modding or waiting for a mod, but remember that we had to make a game that would appeal to those who like a challenge just as much as to those who like feeling powerful and we tried to hit the midway point in this aspect.

Someone else mentioned it's not really "better items" it's more diverse and useful.  Starfang was exciting, but there is no reason to not use it or try something else.

The game does appeal to us, that's why we are here.  We're just sayin... the loot table is an aspect of the game many of us feel lags behind spell casting,  combat and story and is often a "gotcha" moment instead of a :happy: moment.   It doesnt make it feel more challenging that most loot is vendor garbage, it makes it less rewarding.

 Not every new item has to be more powerful than the last,  but those +20 nature magic gloves are not being used by my mages, and I bet most others aren't using them either, or the +20 fire, etc....

If every single person going 2H is using starfang, that negates the entire 2H loot table

You did mention about companions and the need for "gear for all"  I guess I havent' reached the part in the game yet where I will be concenred with that.   My toons in camp are not naked tho so I expect it should not be an issue...

[MSentis]

My 2 cents:

When looting chests or something, I always feel somehow reminded of BG:"Wow, I wonder who was the one who put *one* potion into *that* big chest at the and of the deep roads buried in a place so far away! Must be really powerful that... what the f***? Lesser health poultrice..." "Damn, a whole barrel for 5 coins!" "Get back to the Fade, Desire Demon with red-colored-name! *hack*slash* Whew, what a fight and - wow - now I'm 15 silver richer + three injuries.."

Fail... Well from what I can tell so far, this game lacks the diversety and freedom I still know from NwN2 with all of it's different crafting options. Yes, the runes are a nice addition to the game but they are (as far as I can tell) rather limited in their power - which limits customizability (sp?). I remember back my Drow Warlock chick equipped with that Dark Iron longsword coated in flames.



If the different materials would offer more statistics than just more dmg and armor and that - like +dmg to demons or something like this. Or more runes that could even be placed into armor/rings/w/e, well, that would lead to more diversity - and higher customi...bla (:>). Those runes could offer something like +attributes, increasing a specific talent, and so on.



What about introducing a new skill like rune-crafting?

[surrealitycheck]

For those that love the feeling of getting better items, I
recommend modding or waiting for a mod, but remember that we had to
make a game that would appeal to those who like a challenge just as
much as to those who like feeling powerful and we tried to hit the
midway point in this aspect.

The problem is the nature of loot rewards in the game doesn't actually contribute to a smooth or even coherent difficulty curve. you have the DLC you WILL have amazing loot right out the gate at level 8 (with a full suit of blood dragon / warden's boots with a starfang, wicked oath etc) and consequently it makes the following content much easier.

If you are a rogue however, things are somewhat different. Whereas mages get crazy bumps in their damage when they find +20% damage gloves, or what have you - especially when compared to the marginal effects of spellpower! It's also noticable that having arbitrary caps on things like %damage gear that you can't find out about unless you open an excel file are a little confusing

Having good lot drop more often does not necessarily make the game easier (if it's done properly) - as good difficulty has more to do with problems that require inventive solutions than gear checks. An inventive encounter is one where the party is not just overwhelmed thanks to being undergeared, but has to respond in a coherent fashion with their abilities to a specific and unique type of challenge presented.

EDIT: Another thing would be if you radically decreased the number of chests, but gave them noticable rewards. As it is chests are actually less interesting often than random crates, which is crazy when you consider what the purpose of a chest is!

Modifié par surrealitycheck, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:16 .

[CaptBurn]

More rune crafting: Great idea. Do it!



It still doesn't fix the fact that all the gear in the game looks the same. They stuff NPC's wear and the stuff the PC wears are almost always the same with very few exceptions (the cool templar male skirt thing, for example... even in the toolset it says 'for npc use only!!'.. Wow. Wasted that cool design, right?).

[revcasey]

I think people are having a problem adjusting to the way loot drops in DAO because of the contrast with the loot in other games. The important thing to remember, though, is that the loot in most other games is broken, or at least not optimally balanced.



I like finding super sweet loot as much as the next guy, but I don't like an endgame where I have 100000000000000 gold and nothing to spend it on.



Yes, it is somewhat frustrating to have a full inventory deep in the werewolf dungeon crawl and have to pass up a ton of chest trash that I would otherwise sell because I don't feel like slogging all the way out of there to camp so I can sell some of the trash I already have in my inventory. I also don't like having to decide which trash to destroy in my full inventory when I actually find a useful pot or something.



I guess what I am saying is that the inventory needs to be bigger, or the vendors easier to get to, but I think the loot is alright as it is.

[CaptBurn]

The problem is the nature of loot rewards in the game doesn't actually contribute to a smooth or even coherent difficulty curve. you have the DLC you WILL have amazing loot right out the gate at level 8 (with a full suit of blood dragon / warden's boots with a starfang, wicked oath etc) and consequently it makes the following content much easier.

If you are a rogue however, things are somewhat different. Whereas mages get crazy bumps in their damage when they find +20% damage gloves, or what have you - especially when compared to the marginal effects of spellpower! It's also noticable that having arbitrary caps on things like %damage gear that you can't find out about unless you open an excel file are a little confusing

Having good lot drop more often does not necessarily make the game easier (if it's done properly) - as good difficulty has more to do with problems that require inventive solutions than gear checks. An inventive encounter is one where the party is not just overwhelmed thanks to being undergeared, but has to respond in a coherent fashion with their abilities to a specific and unique type of challenge presented.

EDIT: Another thing would be if you radically decreased the number of chests, but gave them noticable rewards. As it is chests are actually less interesting often than random crates, which is crazy when you consider what the purpose of a chest is!

I like how you think!  

[CaptBurn]

If you want more than 1-2 pieces of the vendor loot, you better make a rogue with max stealing and just sit in EVERY area and pickpocket EVERY NPC... You probably still couldn't get it all. Major time sink.

[Ultrazennn]

The loot in every Bioware game ever made has been underwhealming.  It's the one thing they don't, and never have had, a handle on.

I love Bioware and have bought/owned most of their games, but yes, the loot sucks lol.

There is nothing more demoralizing for a player, than to slog through 100000000 minions, finally down a tough mini boss, and get a freaking frozen lightning to show for it. 

Someone there needs to read up on the psychology of random rewards, it's a huge issue as far as hooking poeple into things and longevity.  Why do you think people are *still* playing Diablo 2?

Heck, the items don't even have to be more powerful, just make them *different*.  Give the players some choice, do they want to wield that sword with +5 frost damage, or fire?

***semi spoiler***


I have to say that lockpicking seriously pissed me off on my first playthrough.  I'm the sort of person that doesn't like to leave any loot behind, and it was beyond frustrating.  My 2nd playthrough I did without opening a single locked chest, and it was awesome.  Garbage be gone.  Until a mod comes out, or they re itemize the game, I will never again waste a single point on anything to do with lockpicking.