110 réponses à ce sujet

[Soruyao]

Darth Obvious wrote...

Archereon wrote...

This is not an RPG

This is not a thread.

This is totally a thread!  It fills every definition of a thread there is.   It is a list of posts about a single topic on a forum.  You better be able to defend this baseless accusation!

*Puts on silly argument hat*

[darkshadow136]

Sorry Archereon but ME1, AND ME2 are both Hybrids of both action shooters and RPG genre games. Most players of both feel that the ME universe is a innovation in both those genres. The game is not meant to be a purest version of either a shooter or RPG but a mixture of the best of both, combined with great storytelling. A game like this is for someone who has played the separate genres and either want something new because they are bored with the same old stuff, or people that are open minded and although they like the old stuff they are still open for something different.

Modifié par darkshadow136, 12 février 2010 - 08:52 .

[sirandar]

Archereon wrote...

And I'm fine with that, I unlike most fans of either genre, can appreciate the face paced combat of a TPS, and the slower paced, though more thought out, combat of an RPG.

 But what I can't stand is that this game feels like a crappy gears of war clone (largely because it uses the same engine as gears, but doesn't have the same amount of effort put into it).  Come on BioWare, if your going to make a shooter, at least make it hold water against its competition!

Its not that I expected a company famed for its RPGs to make even a half decent shooter, and I know EA buys off critics to get 9/10 ratings on most of their big titles, but the fact that this company even tried to make one is infuriating.

Now I've seen a lot of threads arguing that Mass Effect is neither a pure shooter, or an RPG, but a Shooter RPG, and they have good points, but its still a loosing battle.  

Though ME is an RPG in the sense that the player takes on the role of a character in a story, GoW, Halo, and pretty much every shooter does that (putting you in the role of Master 

Before you say "Its different because Mass Effect gives you choices", realize that a lot of RPGs, especially older ones, had linear storylines, its not choices that makes an RPG in the sense most of the "whinners" think of it.


And finally, Shooter RPGs can't exist, trying to make one would be like dividing by zero, it doesn't work.  The harder you try to a perfect balance between genres, the more you'll have to ruin the game with compromises between two polar opposite game design models.  The only high quality game I can think of off hand that comes close to being a shooter RPG would be Fallout 3, which is primarily an RPG no matter how you try to spin it.

I agree with most of the post.

There is nothing impossible about making a TPS - RPG.   It is simply too much work for the developers and less profits in the end for the shareholders.  Even a straight RPG is way above the heads of any current developer.

Here is what it would take to make ME2 into a TPS - RPG.

1) Combat:  ME2 combat is flawed but still challenging and enjoyable.  The basics only need a tweaking.  To make it into a combat  RPG, the squaddies would need to have 10X more character on the battlefield and during away missions.   For example, during combat Jack should have been able to take out 3 heavy mechs alone, but she should also be hard to control, prone to psychotic rages, and liable to turn on you.  That would give her character and make ME2 more an RPG.  All of the characters are basically generic with only a few snippets here and there.  Some people have reduced them to a single power that makes them useful.

2) The enemy in ME2 was completely generic and undeveloped.  What made ME1 more RPG was that you got to know Saren and Soveriegn through direct interaction.  This was completely absent in ME2 and sorely missed.  The collectors could have been men in bunny suits and it wouldn't have changed much.

3) The story was well done but there wasn't much to it.  It was also rather linear but they did a good job of hiding this.

4) About 10X more choice is necessary to make this a complelling RPG

5) Exploration and thoughtful artifact collection is completely absent


That said to make ME2 into a decent RPG would require 7x the development effort Bioware put into ME2 and they would probably have to hire 2 new divisions to pull it off.

1 unit for what they did on ME2
1 unit for a evil path
1 unit for a neutral path
1 unit for crossover paths
1 unit for exploration with real interesting world to visit
1 unit for a tech tree that requires real artifcat collection and logical investigation about how to put them together to make soemthing useful
1 unit for giving squaddies personality

It could be done with current technology and sufficient will but  Bioware investing 7X the resources to make a real RPG would only get them 1.5x the profit IMO.  This is why it won't happen for at least another 10 years. until tech makes this dirt cheap

Its not what the shareholders want
Its may be what Bioware wants
Its not what many, if not most, players want.  They just want to kill stuff in the context of an interative movie.

[Soruyao]

Mass effect 2 would also be a better RPG if it had full virtual reality technology, and we played the whole game wearing a VR helmet in full 3D! Every squad member should have 10 times the dialogue and we should have 100 weapons that are each as different as the weapons we have now, and they should all have every stat be customizable and every weapon should have 20 different color customizable skins.



Every squad member should operate as if they're from a completely different game and have completely different rulesets attached to them to differentiate them. They should each be romancible and we should be able to become evil and join the bad guys and help destroy the universe, but we should have exactly as much effort and dialogue as the game has right now also be implimented for the dark side.



There should be twice the missions and every mission has to be much more fleshed out and have 5 different branching paths to take, each one of which leads to a different conclusion. There should be at least 3 different types of drivable vehicles, each color customizable of course, with a full set of stat based part upgrades for each. There should be a full set of planetside missions where we travel around and gather resources and fight enemies, and each planet should be more fleshed out than the ones in ME1.



I would also like a sandwich.

[MPaBkaTa123]

THEY DID NOT WANT TO MAKE A TRADITIONAL RPG GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Do people not get this is it so hard to understand?

First of : There will never be an "evil" path in Mass Effect because you are not playing a character completely decided by yourself but Commander Shepard who can be either Batman or Superman depending on what you choose.Same about neutral really, except its already there.

Second: Exploration never was in any Bioware game in recent years. All ME1 had was generic different colored wastes filled with one generic base and a lot of nigh impassable mountains. KOTOR and DAO did not have one either.

Third: Squaddy personality is the best in a bioware game except DAO which had the most creative and hilarious characters in any game.



PS.Some of the first things you listed are impossible to do without wasting massive amounts of time.

P.PS. This is directed at Sirandar.

[ZeroXraven]

EA Games Genrally Don't get High Scores you moron, but this is freakin Bioware. They make amazing games. EA just gave them more money and resources to advertise and such. To say that EA pays critics to give good reviews is idiotic. Battlefield Bad Company 2 is going to be AMAZING seeing as how the one level demo is already funner than MW2 with all its hacks and bad level design. It has also already scored a 9.5 in the next Game Informer. Dice and Bioware are just very talented game makers that EA owns. It's really dumb to not even think one of there games is decent. IMHO

[sirandar]

To the above 3 posts ...... your points are very well taken. ME2 is not meant to be an RPG ...... I completely agree and I enjoyed the game for what it was.

Soruyao ..... I hope you get a real nice sandwich.

I was not criticizing ME2 for not being an RPG, I was simply pointing out what it would have taken to make it a compelling one and how unlikely this is too occur. Enjoy ME2 for what it is .... I know I did.

Modifié par sirandar, 12 février 2010 - 09:25 .

[lukandroll]

Archereon wrote...

And I'm fine with that, I unlike most fans of either genre, can appreciate the face paced combat of a TPS, and the slower paced, though more thought out, combat of an RPG.

 But what I can't stand is that this game feels like a crappy gears of war clone (largely because it uses the same engine as gears, but doesn't have the same amount of effort put into it).  Come on BioWare, if your going to make a shooter, at least make it hold water against its competition!

Its not that I expected a company famed for its RPGs to make even a half decent shooter, and I know EA buys off critics to get 9/10 ratings on most of their big titles, but the fact that this company even tried to make one is infuriating.

Now I've seen a lot of threads arguing that Mass Effect is neither a pure shooter, or an RPG, but a Shooter RPG, and they have good points, but its still a loosing battle.  

Though ME is an RPG in the sense that the player takes on the role of a character in a story, GoW, Halo, and pretty much every shooter does that (putting you in the role of Master 

Before you say "Its different because Mass Effect gives you choices", realize that a lot of RPGs, especially older ones, had linear storylines, its not choices that makes an RPG in the sense most of the "whinners" think of it.


And finally, Shooter RPGs can't exist, trying to make one would be like dividing by zero, it doesn't work.  The harder you try to a perfect balance between genres, the more you'll have to ruin the game with compromises between two polar opposite game design models.  The only high quality game I can think of off hand that comes close to being a shooter RPG would be Fallout 3, which is primarily an RPG no matter how you try to spin it.

This game is a Shooter with roleplaying elements.
Is It lack depht on the roleplaying elements? Sure. is It not an RPG? Deppends on what you call an RPG, Role play can be applied to a lot of games today, not just to those labeled as "RPG". I for one do not put this game along others RPGs, because as an RPG is pretty shallow. Ultra linear, ultra dumbed down (You can win the game, with the standar setup and skills). The game lacks exploration, lacks depth

What the TC is meaning is that this game lacks cRPG mechanics, the game is pretty confined. You don't see how much damage input you do, you don't see how much damage the enemy do to you, you don't see the stats of your guns/armor. The upgrades are labeled as 5% more of xxxx, but rarely this make a difference in battle. You know the thrill.

As a game on the other hand, a shooter more precisely, is kind of average at best, what makes this game good its the characters and the dialogue and the "ilusion" of choice, because the only real choices are at the end of the game, just like the majority of these type of games.
Games with real moral choices are games like The Witcher, in wich the choices are not "BAD" or "GOOD", the choices are two points of view and you can agree with both of them; not to mention than the repercution of your choices in The Witcher are seen early on.

I really hope BioWare uses all the money they're getting from this crippled sequel to make ME3 a better balanced game, a game with good action, good RPG mechanics, good roleplaying and a ACTUAL story.

Modifié par lukandroll, 12 février 2010 - 09:37 .

[Kusy]

don't mind me trollin don'tcha?

[MojojojoeJDH]

MojojojoeJDH wrote...

Accidently closed my web browser so I will make my points but make them much shorter.

GoW is not the competition as the games are VASTLY different, and why choose GoW? There are a number of cover based shooters. I personally wish they added the SWAT maneuver so you could go from one bit of cover to another nearby bit of cover without having to break out of cover, move over, and go back into cover.

Fallout 3 is the worst shooter RPG you could have mentioned as the shooting mechanis sucked and the skill system was, IMO, inferior to Oblivion and even Morrowind. And shooter RPGs are very possible. Something "PURISTS" don't get is that no matter what they think there is no "TRUE" RPG. There is the "ORIGINAL" RPG but Action RPGs, Turn-based RPGs, Shooter RPGs, J-RPGs, and MMORPGs are ALL RPGs, with variation in genre, story progression, gameplay type, with varying decrees of linearity. All have their own pros and cons and their own fanbases. But the thing about all Hybrid RPGs is that due to the hybrid nature of the gameplay the developers can choose whatever kind of experience they want.

And saying removing stat based hacking is taking away an RPG element is a load of crap. RPGs are not stand alone. There really is no such thing as an RPG without a prefix. And by prefix I mean; Action, Turn-based, Shooter, J, and MMO. The prefix defines what the RPG "aspects" are. If anything RPG simply means Role-Playing-Game, you create a character that fills a certain role and you play that role throughout the game. The prefix deines where it's turn-based or real-time, guns, swords or both, skill or stat based combat, sleek sexy characters, Conan looking male figures or effeminate men with ridiculously spiky hair. The type of "RPG" gamplay that you will get has more to do with the prefix then it does with the whole RPG part.

Also the whole choice thing is a big step for RPGs as a whole as it adds a level of depth that it far less nerdy. In RPG games that don't have choice and are very to a little linear you can call your self chaotic evil all you want but if there aren't any choices to be made the character you play is only chaotic evil in your head as without choices and consequences there is no feedback from the game world to suggest that your character is indeed chaotic evil.

[MPaBkaTa123]

Mr.Kusy wrote...


don't mind me trollin don'tcha?

I laughed seriously .