210 réponses à ce sujet

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

Why should throw, shockwave, and pull be usefull against protection? 
What is wrong with using warp/reave if they are the correct tool for the job? 

From what I saw in the vid it was warp/reave to remove defenses, other powers to kill the mobs. What's wrong with that?

You can kill an enemy once they reach health with anything. Even another Warp/Reave.
Your options for killing them after protection is down far outweigh your options against protections.

Look at the ammo types that people are drawn to. The vast majority of enemies have health, but only some have armor, some have shields, and some have barriers. Yet, few people would choose Shredder Ammo over AP/Warp ammo's ability to destroy health. Why is that?

[Roxlimn]

rumination888:

Sarcasm gets you nowhere. That's advice you can take to the bank. If you have a point, come right out and prove it. If not, shut it. Keeping your mouth shut when you're wrong will do more to improve your reputation than nearly anything else.

You can kill an enemy once they reach health with anything. Even another Warp/Reave.
Your options for killing them after protection is down far outweigh your options against protections.

Look at the ammo types that people are drawn to. The vast majority of enemies have health, but only some have armor, some have shields, and some have barriers. Yet, few people would choose Shredder Ammo over AP/Warp ammo's ability to destroy health. Why is that? 

1. You can kill any defense with guns, which all classes have.  By your reasoning, that makes ALL powers that strip defenses useless.  You use Overload and Warp because those powers strip defenses faster and safer.  You CAN kill a baddie into Health with Warp/Reave or with guns, but it's easier and faster to do it with powers, as the videos show.

IF you can kill all normal opponents with Warp in one hit on Insanity, then stop saying it and post video.  I know I can't kill Health-only enemies with one hit from a Warp, or even a Heavy Reave.  It's more efficient to use Pull-Throw for the insta-kill when available, and far more efficient to use Warp Explosion for the area damage and knockdown.

In fact, during my Hardcore playthrough, I found that defenses are less than Health on nearly all enemies, and I can tell how I came to that conclusion, on which enemies, using which guns, powers, and other benchmarks.  If you need more specifics, ask.

2. If Shredder Ammo worked on all Health, it would probably be more popular.  It gets a bad rap because it only works on organic health, but it's still a good enough power on its own.  Using popular opinion to prove a point is worthless.  Popular opinion is often completely wrong.  If you have a factual point, you should be able to demonstrate it without referring the popular choice.  Referring to the popular choice implies that you're talking out your bum.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 13 février 2010 - 06:35 .

[Christina Norman]

I do quite like this video, but why not map your squad member's powers? I haven't played ME2-PC at release (my copy came in today at work, but I took today off!) but I'm pretty sure you can map squad member powers to hotkeys.

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote..

You can kill an enemy once they reach health with anything. Even another Warp/Reave.
Your options for killing them after protection is down far outweigh your options against protections.

Look at the ammo types that people are drawn to. The vast majority of enemies have health, but only some have armor, some have shields, and some have barriers. Yet, few people would choose Shredder Ammo over AP/Warp ammo's ability to destroy health. Why is that?

What does it matter though? That's what I don't understand. So what if you have to use warp or reave to remove defenses? On my vanguard I shotgun everything to death, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's what the class does well and I like doing it. Having to rely on some powers to destroy defenses and others to kill isn't something I see as a problem. Especially when the problem seems to be entirely player created. Don't want to keep spamming warp after defenses are down, then don't, kill them with something else.

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote..

You can kill an enemy once they reach health with anything. Even another Warp/Reave.
Your options for killing them after protection is down far outweigh your options against protections.

Look at the ammo types that people are drawn to. The vast majority of enemies have health, but only some have armor, some have shields, and some have barriers. Yet, few people would choose Shredder Ammo over AP/Warp ammo's ability to destroy health. Why is that?

What does it matter though? That's what I don't understand. So what if you have to use warp or reave to remove defenses? On my vanguard I shotgun everything to death, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's what the class does well and I like doing it. Having to rely on some powers to destroy defenses and others to kill isn't something I see as a problem. Especially when the problem seems to be entirely player created. Don't want to keep spamming warp after defenses are down, then don't, kill them with something else.

Can the other classes use the shotgun as effectively as the Vanguard?
Can other classes Warp/Reave as effectively as the Adept?

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...
Can the other classes use the shotgun as effectively as the Vanguard?
Can other classes Warp/Reave as effectively as the Adept?

Can the other classes CC fully armored enemies? No, but singularity can and does if you watch Average Gatsby's videos.

[gr00grams]

I do quite like this video, but why not map your squad member's powers? I haven't played ME2-PC at release (my copy came in today at work, but I took today off!) but I'm pretty sure you can map squad member powers to hotkeys.

Hrm, that's interesting, I haven't seen this. I will look.
It should be noted if your still reading, that there is a very bad bug that's 100% reproducible with the hotkey bar on PC though, so really I try my hardest to avoid messing with it.

It will crash the game every time, 100%.

Modifié par gr00grams, 13 février 2010 - 06:38 .

[gr00grams]

Can the other classes CC fully armored enemies? No, but singularity can and does if you watch Average Gatsby's videos

Check the end of part 3

I put that in just to prove that point lol.



Bloody youtube and processing!... give them HD powa!

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
Can the other classes use the shotgun as effectively as the Vanguard?
Can other classes Warp/Reave as effectively as the Adept?

Can the other classes CC fully armored enemies? No, but singularity can and does if you watch Average Gatsby's videos.

The Engineer can.

[Roxlimn]

rumination888:

Can the other classes use the shotgun as effectively as the Vanguard?

Can other classes Warp/Reave as effectively as the Adept?

A Soldier can use the shotgun nearly as well as the Vanguard. It only lags in runtime because you have to run around everywhere.



Of the classes, only the Sentinel has Warp, and only the Sentinel rivals the Adept for use of Reave. No other class can use Warp as well as the Adept can because the Adept is the only class that can deploy Warp Explosion on its own.

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...

The Engineer can.

Drones are not nearly as effective as singularity is. They also can't kill groups of 3 or 4 enemies in no time like singularity can when combined with other things. Group of guys, singularity, team mate cast warp on one to remove defenses, you  cause warp explosion they're all practically dead in no time, Engineer can't match that.

Modifié par sinosleep, 13 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

The Engineer can.

Drones are not nearly as effective as singularity is.

How so? Singularity can't stop a YMIR Mech from shooting at you. A Drone can.

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...

How so? Singularity can't stop a YMIR Mech from shooting at you. A Drone can.

Read the edited post, and that's all of ONE situation where a drone MAY be better. In practically any other circumstance singularity is inifinitely more useful.

[Varaige]

Christina Norman wrote...

I do quite like this video, but why not map your squad member's powers? I haven't played ME2-PC at release (my copy came in today at work, but I took today off!) but I'm pretty sure you can map squad member powers to hotkeys.

Left and Right Direction pad for 360's to do this.

[matt654321]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

How so? Singularity can't stop a YMIR Mech from shooting at you. A Drone can.

Read the edited post, and that's all of ONE situation where a drone MAY be better. In practically any other circumstance singularity is inifinitely more useful.

Ymir's are one of the toughests (the toughest?) enemies in the entire game, so any advantage against them is not moot.

Yes, Adepts work fine on insanity. However, how is causing the enemy to flinch at best of the same entertainment level that biotics in ME1 were at? I'm not saying that they need to be as imbalanced, but I know which was more entertaining.

And even if you don't buy ANY of that, how exactly is it justified to have three powers that are nearly useless? Most enemies who are down to health will die from another reave/warp or singularity/warp combo (in fact, the premiere strategy, as highlighted in AverageGatsby's thread, is to catch enemies in a singularity, strip them of defenses, then just lob another warp at them)?

Killing enemies with a pull+throw combo takes two actions and has a grand total of 6 seconds of cooldown. Killing that same enemy with warp/reave also has 6 seconds of cooldown and doesn't cost any additional points. At worst, it breaks even and doesn't cost any additional talent points to get.

The ultimate insult to those powers, however, is that by the time you've stripped an enemy of their defenses who are caught in a singularity, the best option by far is to throw a warp at them for massive AoE damage. That makes throw completely moot.

And poor shockwave, it doesn't even get a glimmer of a chance at being useful. Maybe against husk mobs, but that's way too niche to be of any real value.

[Sarah Aran]

@gr00grams:



Excellent video, very smooth run in Part 1. For a moment I was convinced you were using heavy pull, as it may just be the change in aspect ratio or something, but I could swear my vanguard doesn't quite lift people that high, but apparently I'm wrong. Also have you considered mapping your squad's Reave and shockwave to the hotbar?





@Everyone else in the debate:



Christina said it all, Insanity this time around is a different game. In all fairness ME1 Insanity was: "Be an adept, or a vanguard or bring warp, otherwise, have fun suffering, or using your squad mates." So many people enjoyed their Adept (I did) as God of the battlefield, lord and master, laughing at pretty much everything as it ended up lifted and even occasionally shot at by the biotic's pistol, should the biotic be feeling aggressive enough on that particular day. Biotics rejoiced and there were many a perfected save game. Now comes ME2 and surprise the tables are turned, the new flavor of the month is the soldier, or infiltrator, take your pick, or otherwise you have to use warp or use your squad mates to help." That sounds vaguely familiar doesn't it?



My point here is Insanity has always been a different sort of game from the balance vanilla ME has, and there will always be the "Unfun, boring, tedious, not living up to its reputation in my world" class for Insanity. (I'm surprised there isn't more gripe about the Sentinel in ME2, then again, show of hands, how many of us chose Sentinel first in ME1 and stuck with it?

[thisisme8]

matt654321 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

How so? Singularity can't stop a YMIR Mech from shooting at you. A Drone can.

Read the edited post, and that's all of ONE situation where a drone MAY be better. In practically any other circumstance singularity is inifinitely more useful.

Ymir's are one of the toughests (the toughest?) enemies in the entire game, so any advantage against them is not moot.

Yes, Adepts work fine on insanity. However, how is causing the enemy to flinch at best of the same entertainment level that biotics in ME1 were at? I'm not saying that they need to be as imbalanced, but I know which was more entertaining.

And even if you don't buy ANY of that, how exactly is it justified to have three powers that are nearly useless? Most enemies who are down to health will die from another reave/warp or singularity/warp combo (in fact, the premiere strategy, as highlighted in AverageGatsby's thread, is to catch enemies in a singularity, strip them of defenses, then just lob another warp at them)?

Killing enemies with a pull+throw combo takes two actions and has a grand total of 6 seconds of cooldown. Killing that same enemy with warp/reave also has 6 seconds of cooldown and doesn't cost any additional points. At worst, it breaks even and doesn't cost any additional talent points to get.

The ultimate insult to those powers, however, is that by the time you've stripped an enemy of their defenses who are caught in a singularity, the best option by far is to throw a warp at them for massive AoE damage. That makes throw completely moot.

And poor shockwave, it doesn't even get a glimmer of a chance at being useful. Maybe against husk mobs, but that's way too niche to be of any real value.

Play on Vet...  

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

How so? Singularity can't stop a YMIR Mech from shooting at you. A Drone can.

Read the edited post, and that's all of ONE situation where a drone MAY be better. In practically any other circumstance singularity is inifinitely more useful.

In that situation an Engineer can pop an explosive drone up followed by an aoe incinerate/overload, then in about 4s the drone explodes blasting everything around it. The class is actually very capable of AoE damage.

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...

In that situation an Engineer can pop an explosive drone up followed by an aoe incinerate/overload, then in about 4s the drone explodes blasting everything around it. The class is actually very capable of AoE damage.

Biotics are better at it. Wide singularity + unstable warp has 1.) a bigger aoe range 2.) holds enemies in a tighter group with which to kill them in first place.

[gr00grams]

Ymir's are one of the toughests (the toughest?) enemies in the entire game, so any advantage against them is not moot.



Yes, Adepts work fine on insanity. However, how is causing the enemy to flinch at best of the same entertainment level that biotics in ME1 were at? I'm not saying that they need to be as imbalanced, but I know which was more entertaining.



And even if you don't buy ANY of that, how exactly is it justified to have three powers that are nearly useless? Most enemies who are down to health will die from another reave/warp or singularity/warp combo (in fact, the premiere strategy, as highlighted in AverageGatsby's thread, is to catch enemies in a singularity, strip them of defenses, then just lob another warp at them)?



Killing enemies with a pull+throw combo takes two actions and has a grand total of 6 seconds of cooldown. Killing that same enemy with warp/reave also has 6 seconds of cooldown and doesn't cost any additional points. At worst, it breaks even and doesn't cost any additional talent points to get.



The ultimate insult to those powers, however, is that by the time you've stripped an enemy of their defenses who are caught in a singularity, the best option by far is to throw a warp at them for massive AoE damage. That makes throw completely moot.



And poor shockwave, it doesn't even get a glimmer of a chance at being useful. Maybe against husk mobs, but that's way too niche to be of any real value.

As you can see in the three vids, pull, throw and shockwave are very useful.

Or not, I don't care

[matt654321]

gr00grams wrote...


As you can see in the three vids, pull, throw and shockwave are very useful.
Or not, I don't care

You made use of them. That doesn't mean that they're useful. You always had alternatives in killing them with only health remaining.

Your vids are great, don't get me wrong. But they don't prove that throw, warp, and shockwave are useful. They merely show that they can be used.

Look at Gatsby's videos. They prove that you don't need those powers at all.

[matt654321]

thisisme8 wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

How so? Singularity can't stop a YMIR Mech from shooting at you. A Drone can.

Read the edited post, and that's all of ONE situation where a drone MAY be better. In practically any other circumstance singularity is inifinitely more useful.

Ymir's are one of the toughests (the toughest?) enemies in the entire game, so any advantage against them is not moot.

Yes, Adepts work fine on insanity. However, how is causing the enemy to flinch at best of the same entertainment level that biotics in ME1 were at? I'm not saying that they need to be as imbalanced, but I know which was more entertaining.

And even if you don't buy ANY of that, how exactly is it justified to have three powers that are nearly useless? Most enemies who are down to health will die from another reave/warp or singularity/warp combo (in fact, the premiere strategy, as highlighted in AverageGatsby's thread, is to catch enemies in a singularity, strip them of defenses, then just lob another warp at them)?

Killing enemies with a pull+throw combo takes two actions and has a grand total of 6 seconds of cooldown. Killing that same enemy with warp/reave also has 6 seconds of cooldown and doesn't cost any additional points. At worst, it breaks even and doesn't cost any additional talent points to get.

The ultimate insult to those powers, however, is that by the time you've stripped an enemy of their defenses who are caught in a singularity, the best option by far is to throw a warp at them for massive AoE damage. That makes throw completely moot.

And poor shockwave, it doesn't even get a glimmer of a chance at being useful. Maybe against husk mobs, but that's way too niche to be of any real value.

Play on Vet...  

Yes, because that justifies half of the Adept's power repertoire being useless on insanity. Right...

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

In that situation an Engineer can pop an explosive drone up followed by an aoe incinerate/overload, then in about 4s the drone explodes blasting everything around it. The class is actually very capable of AoE damage.

Biotics are better at it. Wide singularity + unstable warp has 1.) a bigger aoe range 2.) holds enemies in a tighter group with which to kill them in first place.

Wide Singularity disappears quicker the more protected enemies are caught in its radius. On insanity, it disappears almost instantly if it touches more than 1 protected enemy(not an exaggeration, if you ever see it last long on Insanity, thats either due to the Heavy version, the enemy is unprotected, or its only holding 1 target). If you're catching unprotected enemies in its 3m radius, well.... incinerate/overload will catch unprotected enemies and CC them all via panicing/stunning them AND dealing damage. 

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...

Wide Singularity disappears quicker the more protected enemies are caught in its radius. On insanity, it disappears almost instantly if it touches more than 1 protected enemy(not an exaggeration, if you ever see it last long on Insanity, thats either due to the Heavy version, the enemy is unprotected, or its only holding 1 target). If you're catching unprotected enemies in its 3m radius, well.... incinerate/overload will catch unprotected enemies and CC them all via panicing/stunning them AND dealing damage. 

7 meter range on unstable warp explosion.

[Inferno Sock]

Ur a realy skilled Adept

Go u!!