210 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

matt654321:



And the arguments against Pull and Throw are just as wrong as the argument before were on Singularity. Play the game without using Warp. It can be done, and it's not all that hard.

[matt654321]

Roxlimn wrote...

matt654321:

And the arguments against Pull and Throw are just as wrong as the argument before were on Singularity. Play the game without using Warp. It can be done, and it's not all that hard.

Absolutely not true. Those skills are situationally useful at best. Try this:

Play through insanity. Max out pull, throw, and shockwave before anything else. Then get back to me.

[themaxzero]

Christina Norman wrote...

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

/Joker "and Shepard goes the nuclear option!"

[finnithe]

If you're not going to use guns as an Adept, you might as well not use Warp, or Singularity, and just send out your squad to die. Your guns are an ability just as much as your Singularity is.

matt654321 wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

matt654321:

And the arguments against Pull and Throw are just as wrong as the argument before were on Singularity. Play the game without using Warp. It can be done, and it's not all that hard.

Absolutely not true. Those skills are situationally useful at best. Try this:

Play through insanity. Max out pull, throw, and shockwave before anything else. Then get back to me.

I do agree that Throw and Shockwave are somewhat limited, as their
effectiveness is only realized when you're in an area with several
bottomless pits. However, I think putting 2-3 ranks in pull is ok because it can serve as an alternative to Singularity when enemies are isolated (the low CD complements this) in almost every situation.

I'm playing Insanity+ with my Adept, and it's pretty hard. One Warp/Reave/Overload doesn't take down their protection because they're scaled to a Shep with all the upgrades. One Singularity/Warp explosion usually just throws enemies around instead of killing. Really, the easiest way to kill enemies is to lock one or a few down with Singularity and start using your SMG/Pistol/squad's powers to take down their protection. Once their protection is gone and the enemy is sucked into the Singularity, pop off a Heavy/Unstable Warp.

I chose a Sniper Rifle for my Advanced Weapon training, can you respec to Assault Rifle in a New Game+ playthrough and should I? Sometimes the range helps but other times it takes way too long to pop out of cover.

[gr00grams]

Yet you continue to argue. Good job not arguing.

It is because your lot is damned arggravating. That's all.

Again, regardless of anything presented, whatever the presentation is, you still defy.

Even when the devs etc step in, and basically tell you, that your flat out wrong with most assumptions, you still persist on ridiculous banter.



It's human nature for me to respond, even when I say I'm done, out of the same logic that your lot continues to attempt defiance to actual evidence. I apologize, but that's the truth.



I also know for a fact, your going to retort to this, using more quotes, and picking apart what I say to emphasize your points again. You can't help it either. The only reason you might not, is because I typed this.



How's this;



I will try to stop arguing. I have made my case and shown actual proof, not just forum slandering.

[matt654321]

gr00grams wrote...

It is because your lot is damned arggravating. That's all.

That's still not avoiding talking about it. Either do or don't, but don't say one thing and do the opposite.

gr00grams wrote...
Again, regardless of anything presented, whatever the presentation is, you still defy.

If someone makes a video of a character clearing insanity with no powers, upgrades, and only using the pistol, does that mean that upgrades, powers, and other weapons are all useless? Of course not.

Yes, you made a video where you used those powers. That doesn't prove that there isn't something wrong with them.

gr00grams wrote...
Even when the devs etc step in, and basically tell you, that your flat out wrong with most assumptions, you still persist on ridiculous banter.

Of course the devs are going to say that you're doing it 'as intended.' They aren't going to want to admit it.

Again, there are plenty of other videos out there with adepts not even touching shockwave, pull, or throw. You don't need them.

gr00grams wrote...
It's human nature for me to respond, even when I say I'm done, out of the same logic that your lot continues to attempt defiance to actual evidence. I apologize, but that's the truth.

So your precondition for not arguing is that other people would all magically agree with you by you not arguing? Way to make sense.

gr00grams wrote...
I also know for a fact, your going to retort to this, using more quotes, and picking apart what I say to emphasize your points again. You can't help it either. The only reason you might not, is because I typed this.

Yes, I'm going to respond. That's how forums work.

gr00grams wrote...
How's this;

I will try to stop arguing.

You've said that a lot. I doubt you'll stop.

gr00grams wrote...
I have made my case and shown actual proof, not just forum slandering.

First off, look up the word slander. No one is slandering anything.

And no, you haven't shown proof. You've made a nice video, but that doesn't mean that all of the previous concerns magically disappear.

[Arde5643]

The GreatGatsby did a great job in explaining how to tier the level of the adept's powers.

Here's the video for anyone who's actually interested in the discussion and not trolling:
Builds/Collector Ship P1

Basically, for the adept, pull and throw are secondary powers whose uses are very situational but can be more advantageous to use in certain situations.

For example, when enemies are stripped of their defenses and are quite spread out, using pull can be more advantageous than using singularity due to the lower cooldown.
You can essentially pull multiple individual enemies in succession whereas with singularity you have to wait for a second or so to cast another one.
Singularity is great against multiple bunkered enemies, however pull is excellent against spread out individual enemies and nearby enemies.

Places that have ledges/high drops also benefit from the use of throw instead of warp detonate since pull + throw combo can be done very quickly in succession of one another unlike warp detonate which will force you to bunker down a couple of seconds.

Shockwave, while still a useful situational tool, becomes less so due to singularity and pull.
Whereas shockwave might actually be of use to the vanguard in some close combat situations to stun enemies out of cover, it is much less so for the adept since getting too close to the enemy usually means death for our beloved adept.
However depending on your adept build, shockwave might be more of use than your average adept build.

In summary, you have:
Tier 1 powers: Singularity and warp in that order
Tier 2 powers: Pull and throw in that order
Tier 3 power: Shockwave

[Graunt]

Christina Norman wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Geth have nearly double, if not triple the amount of protection than they do actual life, same thing applies to husks.  Can't really say for sure about humans, vorcha and krogans but heavy mechs have two layers of protection and seem to only require a few seconds of fire to take down as opposed to how long it took to strip them.  The generic security bots also have more protection than life as do any of the Asari Vanguards and other elite humanoids.  I'll check the collectors in a minute.

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

I don't know, from actually playing the game?  Are you really suggesting that the Geth have equal amounts of life to shields?  Because they don't.  It's also harder to strip off protections without an active ammo power than it is health on pretty much everything on Insanity.  If you're saying that all forms of protection are equal to the amount of health something has, then is there also a damage reduction going on that makes it seem like they have more protection than what they do?  

I know for a fact that I spend more time trying to remove a barrier than I do actually finishing an enemy once it's off, at least on the Asari Vanguards and other "elite" type humanoids.  Husks are also the perfect example.  You can literally blow them up with a single charge from a Vanguard after their armor is gone, but the charge itself doesn't generally remove the layer of armor.  And to clarify, I know the primary differences and applications of SMGs, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles and the hand guns.

Modifié par Graunt, 13 février 2010 - 07:40 .

[finnithe]

Graunt wrote...

Christina Norman wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Geth have nearly double, if not triple the amount of protection than they do actual life, same thing applies to husks.  Can't really say for sure about humans, vorcha and krogans but heavy mechs have two layers of protection and seem to only require a few seconds of fire to take down as opposed to how long it took to strip them.  The generic security bots also have more protection than life as do any of the Asari Vanguards and other elite humanoids.  I'll check the collectors in a minute.

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

I don't know, from actually playing the game?  Are you really suggesting that the Geth have equal amounts of life to shields?  Because they don't.  It's also harder to strip off protections without an active ammo power than it is health on pretty much everything on Insanity.  If you're saying that all forms of protection are equal to the amount of health something has, then is there also a damage reduction going on that makes it seem like they have more protection than what they do?  I know for a fact that I spend more time trying to remove a barrier than I do actually finishing an enemy once it's off, at least on the Asari Vanguards and other "elite" type humanoids.  Husks are also the perfect example.  You can literally blow them up with a single charge from a Vanguard after their armor is gone, but the charge itself doesn't generally remove the layer of armor.

Maybe it would help if someone in this had some actual numbers. Since Christana is a dev, I'm thinking she has the actual number to refer to. I wonder if it's possible to release these numbers.

Also, what are you doing using Charge for killing Husks. The reason why you could kill an armour-less Husk with Charge is that they get instagibbed by any biotic attack once their protection is gone. You could have just as well used Pull. I find that most other enemies actually have a large amount of health. One Heavy Warp/Singularity explosion wont even kill them.

[Graunt]

finnithe wrote...
Also, what are you doing using Charge for killing Husks. The reason why you could kill an armour-less Husk with Charge is that they get instagibbed by any biotic attack once their protection is gone. You could have just as well used Pull. I find that most other enemies actually have a large amount of health. One Heavy Warp/Singularity explosion wont even kill them.

It's not like I'm using charge specifically to kill them, there have just been situations where I needed to refill a shield and a husk was in my face at full life and no armor.  I also haven't ever seen pull blow up a husk, but maybe I just haven't tried it.  I also don't remember them exploding when being caught in singularity either.

[matt654321]

finnithe wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Christina Norman wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Geth have nearly double, if not triple the amount of protection than they do actual life, same thing applies to husks.  Can't really say for sure about humans, vorcha and krogans but heavy mechs have two layers of protection and seem to only require a few seconds of fire to take down as opposed to how long it took to strip them.  The generic security bots also have more protection than life as do any of the Asari Vanguards and other elite humanoids.  I'll check the collectors in a minute.

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

I don't know, from actually playing the game?  Are you really suggesting that the Geth have equal amounts of life to shields?  Because they don't.  It's also harder to strip off protections without an active ammo power than it is health on pretty much everything on Insanity.  If you're saying that all forms of protection are equal to the amount of health something has, then is there also a damage reduction going on that makes it seem like they have more protection than what they do?  I know for a fact that I spend more time trying to remove a barrier than I do actually finishing an enemy once it's off, at least on the Asari Vanguards and other "elite" type humanoids.  Husks are also the perfect example.  You can literally blow them up with a single charge from a Vanguard after their armor is gone, but the charge itself doesn't generally remove the layer of armor.

Maybe it would help if someone in this had some actual numbers. Since Christana is a dev, I'm thinking she has the actual number to refer to. I wonder if it's possible to release these numbers.

That's funny, because it tells you in game that geth have very high shields and very low health.

[Trefecka]

I'd like to point out for husks that they auto-kill if they leave the ground. So any power that lifts them off the ground kills then (yes, pull and singularity do work). As well, certain other powers also appear to have the insta-kill effect (dominate if I remember correctly).



Husks to have quite a bit of pure health. I always found it easier to just strip the armor -> singularity/throw rather than burning through the health.

[Trefecka]

matt654321 wrote...

finnithe wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Christina Norman wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Geth have nearly double, if not triple the amount of protection than they do actual life, same thing applies to husks.  Can't really say for sure about humans, vorcha and krogans but heavy mechs have two layers of protection and seem to only require a few seconds of fire to take down as opposed to how long it took to strip them.  The generic security bots also have more protection than life as do any of the Asari Vanguards and other elite humanoids.  I'll check the collectors in a minute.

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

I don't know, from actually playing the game?  Are you really suggesting that the Geth have equal amounts of life to shields?  Because they don't.  It's also harder to strip off protections without an active ammo power than it is health on pretty much everything on Insanity.  If you're saying that all forms of protection are equal to the amount of health something has, then is there also a damage reduction going on that makes it seem like they have more protection than what they do?  I know for a fact that I spend more time trying to remove a barrier than I do actually finishing an enemy once it's off, at least on the Asari Vanguards and other "elite" type humanoids.  Husks are also the perfect example.  You can literally blow them up with a single charge from a Vanguard after their armor is gone, but the charge itself doesn't generally remove the layer of armor.

Maybe it would help if someone in this had some actual numbers. Since Christana is a dev, I'm thinking she has the actual number to refer to. I wonder if it's possible to release these numbers.

That's funny, because it tells you in game that geth have very high shields and very low health.

You did notice how she said "almost all the information", right?  Not, all the information is incorrect.  Yes, in game it tells us about geth.  But how about the other enemies?  The player base as a whole are making assumptions that health value < protection value in all cases on insanity.

[Arde5643]

Cyro ammo, cyro blast, throw/pull are excellent alternatives against any unprotected enemies (especially charging husks and krogans) since it's much faster than trying to shoot them to death.



AI hacking gets a lot of love as well on any levels involving mechs or geths since oftentimes it's easier to shoot at enemies when they're busy killing each other instead.



They would be what you refer to as tier 2 skills - situational, but excellent when used at the right time.



Shockwave, unfortunately, remains far too situational for the adept to use - only the vanguard will probably find proper use of it.

Shockwave really needs to be patched so that the cooldown time is far reduced to make it a viable 2nd tier skill.

[_Dannok1234]

Graunt wrote...

Christina Norman wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Geth have nearly double, if not triple the amount of protection than they do actual life, same thing applies to husks.  Can't really say for sure about humans, vorcha and krogans but heavy mechs have two layers of protection and seem to only require a few seconds of fire to take down as opposed to how long it took to strip them.  The generic security bots also have more protection than life as do any of the Asari Vanguards and other elite humanoids.  I'll check the collectors in a minute.

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

I don't know, from actually playing the game?  Are you really suggesting that the Geth have equal amounts of life to shields?  Because they don't.  It's also harder to strip off protections without an active ammo power than it is health on pretty much everything on Insanity.  If you're saying that all forms of protection are equal to the amount of health something has, then is there also a damage reduction going on that makes it seem like they have more protection than what they do?  

I know for a fact that I spend more time trying to remove a barrier than I do actually finishing an enemy once it's off, at least on the Asari Vanguards and other "elite" type humanoids.  Husks are also the perfect example.  You can literally blow them up with a single charge from a Vanguard after their armor is gone, but the charge itself doesn't generally remove the layer of armor.  And to clarify, I know the primary differences and applications of SMGs, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles and the hand guns.

Couple of questions. Which geth do you maintain have far less health then shields? I know that it's not Geth hunters. I know that it's not Geth troopers (If there is a difference it must be tiny). So which ones?
Also it's interesting how you start out saying that you know for a fact, that you spend more time removing barriers/shields from enemies then you do on health. Then you go on to say it's only for Elites. This is true of course, once an enemy has lost it's defense, you can instantly kill them with biotics. If you mean it takes longer with guns, then you might be using the wrong weapon. (I know you said that you know which does what but if your experience is what you say, then it would point towards that you do not.)

Charge combined with a shotgun( that you enjoy using, doesn't really matter which one), is very nearly overpowered. If it wasn't for the fact that a small mistake will kill you to balance it out, it would be.(Not sure it isn't to be honest)

The problem here is not the class nor the abilities, but how you use them. I know you might read that as a personal attack but it truly isn't. It's just a fact.

[themaxzero]

matt654321 wrote...

First off, look up the word slander. No one is slandering anything.

And no, you haven't shown proof. You've made a nice video, but that doesn't mean that all of the previous concerns magically disappear.

Where are your videos? What evidence do you have that there is a problem? You say Adept is not 'fun', you say Adept is 'not right' on Insanity but talking is all you do.

Modifié par themaxzero, 13 février 2010 - 08:03 .

[GCreature]

Imo Shockwave should've had explosions covering a 90 degree arc just in front of you. It'd make it somewhat better at dealing with melee hordes.

[Roxlimn]

matt654321:

Absolutely not true. Those skills are situationally useful at best. Try this:



Play through insanity. Max out pull, throw, and shockwave before anything else. Then get back to me.

To tell you the truth, after 4 concurrent playthroughs on Hardcore, I'm pretty burned out on ME2. I might do that some time and I'll get back to you, but as far as Hardcore is concerned, I did max out Throw, then Pull and never did max Warp. It doesn't need to be maxxed to do its damage. Much of the power of Warp Explosion comes from damage upgrades.



Of course, I did also respec and tried the different combats with Warp maxxed. More damage all around, depending. Less control, more damage in general. It's really hard to control multiple targets all over the field when your Pull isn't lasting as long as it normally does.



Look, I've played through the various specs and I can talk about it because I really did try out those combinations and it worked out for me pretty well. You guys don't even know how half the biotic powers work! I mean, I keep hearing you guys saying that Throw doesn't work on defended enemies.



Have you TRIED using it on a defended enemy? It actually does create a short stagger effect. By and large, I find your objections and suggestions reflective of someone who isn't really acquainted with the game mechanics.

That's funny, because it tells you in game that geth have very high shields and very low health.

It doesn't actually say "very high" and "very low." The statement can also be relative. Generally speaking, mooks have more Health than Defense (and yes, I can actually back that statement up with a test you can run for yourself). If Geth had equal parts Shields and Health, then they would have relatively more Shields and relatively low Health.



Not saying that that's actually the case, but you're presenting your side very poorly in the debate.



Graunt:



You DO know who she is, right? Like, she has access to the entire code, and actually led the team that coded that code? You know, THAT Christina Norman?



Arde5643:



I would actually put Pull and Throw about on a level with Singularity. The thing with Singularity is that really sucks up your cooldown. AverageGatsby goes relatively slowly in his playthrough because he insists on using Singularity, when a single application of Area Overload was stripping mooks of Shields in one go. He doesn't really need Singularity there - as he says so himself, those guys will bunch up in that area naturally, anyway.



Apply one Area Overload, apply one Pull, then Miranda for the instant Heavy Warp. In some of his videos, AverageGatsby fails to take advantage of a pit to the left or to the right. It's not necessary to do so, of course, but it would be more efficient.



Using Pull+Warp from Miranda means you can use more powers immediately.



Both Pull and Throw perform the function of multi-area control. This is not a situational benefit. The insta-kill effect is a situational benefit. Multi-area control is not. Using Pull and Throw are not exclusive to using Singularity. You can use Singularity to control one area, then Pull and Throw to control the rest.

[themaxzero]

Interestingly enough one thing i'm planning to try is a Sentinal with Reave as a bonus power plus max Throw. With all the bonuses you can get to Power Damage your Area Reave will be ultra powerful and then you can just finish them with Throw. You even get access to Overload if worried about shields.

With all the trimmings you could get Area Reave to 382 damage (764 against Barriers and Armour). That should be enough to cripple most defenses.

I'm currently experimenting with using Cryo Blast on my Engineer to substitute for Throw/Pull. Can't help feeling that Throw/Pull would really complete this tactic better.

Modifié par themaxzero, 13 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[Graunt]

Dannok1234 wrote...
Couple of questions. Which geth do you maintain have far less health then shields? I know that it's not Geth hunters. I know that it's not Geth troopers (If there is a difference it must be tiny). So which ones?

Actually, pay attention to the troopers.  Once their shields are gone, they drop almost instantly.  A really easy place to test it out is either on Legion's side mission or on Tali's recruitment mission, especially in the room where you pick up a charge and there's the recording about the mining laser when the handful of troopers and a Hunter/Prime drops.

Also it's interesting how you start out saying that you know for a fact, that you spend more time removing barriers/shields from enemies then you do on health. Then you go on to say it's only for Elites.

Please quote where I said "it's only for Elites".  I never said that, I said at least.

You DO know who she is, right? Like, she has access to the entire
code, and actually led the team that coded that code? You know, THAT
Christina Norman?

Anyone who watched the handful of class videos with even a passing interest knows who she is.  Being the gameplay designer doesn't mean you know all of the code, although it's a pretty safe bet she knows more about the numbers than any of us and can easily get the information she doesn't actually know.

Modifié par Graunt, 13 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[Roxlimn]

themaxzero:



Tried that already. It's nice, but it's usually just better to take Jack along for Pull. The draw there is that Jack's Pull is instantaneous, so the limiting factor is your Warp. Between your cooldowns and Jack's cooldowns, you can more or less spam Warp Explosions for as long as you have targets. I'd estimate your concurrent cooldowns to be a little less than 4 seconds, maybe.

[FoFoZem]

I have used Throw/Pull on protected enemies. The lack of damage and CC does not justify its use over a Singularity/Warp Combo, even in spite of the shorter cool down.



I like to do a Singularity, have Miranda use warp to destroy the armor, have Jack use Pull and then I warp for the kill

[fredefrede]

gr00grams wrote...


Part 3 is up! (processing done! available in 1080p!)

www.youtube.com/watch

Cheers,

Lol @ 3.08 where the collector drone turns into harbinger mid-air after you pulled it over a cliff

But yeah great vid, i wouldn't say you spam warp/reave, more like applied the best biotics for the situation.. but if you came to prove people otherwise, don't. this is the internet; haters gonna hate and whiners gonna whine

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

themaxzero:

Tried that already. It's nice, but it's usually just better to take Jack along for Pull. The draw there is that Jack's Pull is instantaneous, so the limiting factor is your Warp. Between your cooldowns and Jack's cooldowns, you can more or less spam Warp Explosions for as long as you have targets. I'd estimate your concurrent cooldowns to be a little less than 4 seconds, maybe.

Call me selfish but I have a bit of solo streak. I'm not the hero dammit not my sidekicks! Am the same way in Dragon Age, I carry the group and my companions are just their for romance/story.

So while ordering the right teammaters is undoubtably more effective I want to keep as much as I can "in house".

Modifié par themaxzero, 13 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[matt654321]

Roxlimn wrote...

Look, I've played through the various specs and I can talk about it because I really did try out those combinations and it worked out for me pretty well. You guys don't even know how half the biotic powers work! I mean, I keep hearing you guys saying that Throw doesn't work on defended enemies.

Have you TRIED using it on a defended enemy? It actually does create a short stagger effect. By and large, I find your objections and suggestions reflective of someone who isn't really acquainted with the game mechanics.

Lol, fail at trying to make it look like I haven't tried that. The stagger effect is so short that it doesn't last long enough to let you pop out of cover and do anything. It does something, but it doesn't "work."

Shockwave does the same thing (have you actually tried that? probably not), but its startup and cooldown are so long that it puts you at a major frame disadvantage just by using the move.

No, they don't work. And yes, I've actually played and tried to get them to work. They simply don't.