54 réponses à ce sujet

[AlNahar]

As I don't see alive threads right now and want to sum up pluses and minuses.

This choice - between destroing heretic geth and reprogramming them - seemed to be the hardest for me. Even harder then

destroing/saving Collectors' base. So, pluses and minuses.

Reprogramming Heretic Geth.
Marked as "Paragon", seems more Renegade to me.

Pluses:

+: Strengthening of Possible Help.
As Reapers approach and Geth seemingly don't like them (especially after finding plans of heretics' attacks on them), the latter are possible allies in the forthcoming battle.

Minuses:

-: Not Safe.
As Shepard states, nobody can ensure that they don't come to the same conclusion again. Geth have reputation for overcoming hacking, programming and re-programming.  What if they overcome repurposed virus? Then you have gained nothing and lost the chance to destroy Reapers' allies.
Also, though Legion is cute robot thingie and all, let's not forget that mainstream geth still don't like organics and kill them on encontering (as seen in the side-mission with ship, for example), though do not go into offensive. Of course, they have issueswith their Creators turning on them, but this doesn't make them less dangerous. Mainstream Geth general hostility not confirmed. Mainstream Geth hospitality is still not confirmed, too

-: Immoral.
Wait, we were battling the Reapers and killing their indoctrinated/"repurposed"("reprogrammed") slaves and talking about "killing being the better option for them" (in Collectors' case it is stated directly by Mordin, for example), and now we are indoctrinating sentient beings ourselves? In fact, millions or billions of them. Doesn't seem right. It was their choice to side with the Reapers, and now we are trying to strip them of their free will.

Destroing Heretic Geth.
Marked as "Renegade", and... well, it is still Renegade, but did we come to this base to give our enemies funny bunnies?

Pluses:

+: Secure.
Reverse of the "Not Safe" minus of reprogramming. Dead enemies are dead, they can't suddenly nuke you in the back.

+: Possible Diplomatic Bonus.
As Geth space will be more vulnerable, it will be more logical for them to negotiate. As they are creatures of logic, after all, it can be even more effective than zombifying... er... reprogramming their brethren in case you want to bring them under your banner.

Minuses:

-: Weakening of Possible Allies.
Reverse of the Strengthening of Possible Help plus of reprogramming.

Modifié par AlNahar, 13 février 2010 - 06:38 .

[AlNahar]

Oh, wait, I forgot to ask you a question - what do you think of it and what have you chosen?

[DarthCaine]

It's pretty obvious which is the "right" choice is you try both paths and talk to Legion:

Rewriting: Good Geth get stronger

Destroying: The Heretic Geth want revenge for destroying their main base

[The Shelf]

See this idea of reprogramming the heretic being immoral is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Geth really are. You can't compare it to indoctrination because individual Geth are not intelligent. There is only one Geth that is intelligent, and that is the Geth collective. You can split that collective up to form smaller, less intelligent collectives, but the moment you re-integrate them together, they form a single intelligence again. Individual Geth are not intelligent. They are, after all, just VIs like Tali explained in ME1. They only form an AI when you combine them.



In other words, think of the Geth Collective mind as the liquid in a lava lamp. It can constantly split apart and recombine randomly, but in the end it's all one amorphous blob.



My point in explaining this is that reprogramming some of the Geth is more akin to the techniques a psychologist might use to help someone overcome an undesired personality trait.



Of course, this isn't even touching on the greater issue at hand here which is whether or not it is even immoral to do anything to a piece of software. Real life AI (comparable to VIs in the Mass Effect universe) are nothing more than algorithms designed to solve problems that the software doesn't have perfect knowledge of. However, as we have seen already, individual Geth are actually VIs, not AIs. Only the Geth Collective(s) are AI(s). So we see that the difference between a VI and an AI is not one of type, but rather one of magnitude. This indicates that there is a "critical mass" of computational power that we recognize as sentience. However, the Geth are still not alive. They only possess intelligence, not life. Intelligence is simply the ability to recognize and solve problems. If you really think that is all that humans are (or sentient aliens in the case of the Mass Effect universe), then I cannot dissuade you.



I guess what I am trying to say is that I do not believe the Geth are alive, and I do not believe it is possible to be immoral to something that is not alive.

[McBeath]

It's not easy, though I side with reprogramming. They clearly are under the infulence of Soveriegn/reapers, and as such something has to be done.



In a perfect Galaxy I'd leave them to thier own devices, but if I have to choose between leaving them to fight for the reapers, killing them outright in a pre-emptive strike or reprogramming them I'm all for reprogramming.



I think that this whole idea(AI rights, ideals, ect) is a great commentary on what the future could hold. Tough choice I'd agree, but life is preferable to death. That, and I like to think that the reapers changed them first, I'm just restoring them.

[Jurgenaut]

I went with the rewrite. I figured that I couldn't afford weakening the geth. Weaker geth means that the Quarians are more likely to start their war. Strong geth would retain the balance of power between the two.

With the reapers coming, the galactic society can scarcely afford infighting.

[Astranagant]

The Shelf wrote...

See this idea of reprogramming the heretic being immoral is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Geth really are. You can't compare it to indoctrination because individual Geth are not intelligent. There is only one Geth that is intelligent, and that is the Geth collective. You can split that collective up to form smaller, less intelligent collectives, but the moment you re-integrate them together, they form a single intelligence again. Individual Geth are not intelligent. They are, after all, just VIs like Tali explained in ME1. They only form an AI when you combine them.

In other words, think of the Geth Collective mind as the liquid in a lava lamp. It can constantly split apart and recombine randomly, but in the end it's all one amorphous blob.

My point in explaining this is that reprogramming some of the Geth is more akin to the techniques a psychologist might use to help someone overcome an undesired personality trait.

Of course, this isn't even touching on the greater issue at hand here which is whether or not it is even immoral to do anything to a piece of software. Real life AI (comparable to VIs in the Mass Effect universe) are nothing more than algorithms designed to solve problems that the software doesn't have perfect knowledge of. However, as we have seen already, individual Geth are actually VIs, not AIs. Only the Geth Collective(s) are AI(s). So we see that the difference between a VI and an AI is not one of type, but rather one of magnitude. This indicates that there is a "critical mass" of computational power that we recognize as sentience. However, the Geth are still not alive. They only possess intelligence, not life. Intelligence is simply the ability to recognize and solve problems. If you really think that is all that humans are (or sentient aliens in the case of the Mass Effect universe), then I cannot dissuade you.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I do not believe the Geth are alive, and I do not believe it is possible to be immoral to something that is not alive.

The Geth aren't a collective consciousness, they commune and share information when networked, but they don't form a single "consciousness," each program is still an individual. The lack of differentiation is because they all share memories, which means they all effectively have the same memories and experiences.

Modifié par Astranagant, 12 février 2010 - 06:10 .

[Eunjuay]

ME2 seems to be laying the groundwork for a galatic alliance vs the reapers (Dragon Age?). As such, I want as many people on my side as possible.

[AlNahar]

DarthCaine wrote...

It's pretty obvious which is the "right" choice is you try both paths and talk to Legion:
Rewriting: Good Geth get stronger
Destroying: The Heretic Geth want revenge for destroying their main base

I tried both options, and still it doesn't seem such straightforward. It is the state just after you have rewritten them.

Heretic Geth want to kill you anyway - they are on the Reapers side, after all. Good Geth get stronger just for a moment, and they are not good, which I tried to underline.

Eunjuay wrote...

ME2 seems to be laying the groundwork
for a galatic alliance vs the reapers (Dragon Age?). As such, I want as
many people on my side as possible.

It doesn't seem to me that rewriting Heretics is necessarily making more people on your side. What if they overcome this hacking and "come to the same conclusion again"?

Modifié par AlNahar, 12 février 2010 - 06:15 .

[flem1]

Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[The Shelf]

Astranagant wrote...

The Geth aren't a collective consciousness, they commune and share information when networked, but they don't form a single "consciousness," each program is still an individual. The lack of differentiation is because they all share memories, which means they all effectively have the same memories and experiences.

Right, but individually, they are no more sentient than a dog or an ant.  Legion and Shepard made that very clear during their conversations.  Is it immoral to retrain a dog?

[IMTrick]

If you believe the Reapers are evil (which seems a pretty reasonable Paragon perspective to me), then "convincing" the heretic Geth of their mistake through reprogramming seems better than just wiping them out, doesn't it?



With everything Shepard knows to that point, if the Geth are worshipping the Reapers, it seems pretty obvious to me that he'd see them as, well, defective; the Geth equivalent of mentally ill. Does a crazy person (or, in this case, a buggy andriod) have free will, or is he just sick?



Reprogramming the heretics cures the disease, while destroying them just kills a whole lot of sentient life that could easily have been rehabilitated. The Paragon choice seems pretty obvious to me.

[AlNahar]

The Shelf wrote...

Right, but individually, they are no more sentient than a dog or an ant.  Legion and Shepard made that very clear during their conversations.  Is it immoral to retrain a dog?

As I understand, programs in the Collective work like neuron cells - or more like clusters on neuron cells that are responsible for different functions - in the brain. Is changing neuron clusters okay, if the brain consisting of them comes to the conclusion you want after it?

[Jurgenaut]

Morality is not a constant thing. In a universe full of aliens, one would expect different morals. If a thing is intelligent, what gives you the right to dictate its future?

[Looper128]

This was an incredible hard choice. In the end I chose to reprogram them. Ill just hope it wont come back and bite me in my ass in me3. The thing I'm most worried over is the psychological effect it might have on the geth as stated by Shepard and legion answering that theres no way to know for sure beforehand.

Modifié par Lopper128, 12 février 2010 - 06:22 .

[Jurgenaut]

poisonoustea wrote...

Jurgenaut wrote...

I went with the rewrite. I figured that I couldn't afford weakening the geth. Weaker geth means that the Quarians are more likely to start their war. Strong geth would retain the balance of power between the two.
With the reapers coming, the galactic society can scarcely afford infighting.

Uhm, I don't think this is relevant in the war issue. Heretics appear to be a strong minority in Geth population.
We'll have to wait for ME3 to know for sure... and replay.

Still though, before Shep rebooted Legion everyone thought  the heretic geth represented all Geth. The Quarians won't care either way, they just want their planet and slaves back.

[AlNahar]

IMTrick wrote...
With everything Shepard knows to that point, if the Geth are worshipping the Reapers, it seems pretty obvious to me that he'd see them as, well, defective; the Geth equivalent of mentally ill. Does a crazy person (or, in this case, a buggy andriod) have free will, or is he just sick?

Legion seems to put it in the other way - there are many different truths for different "program clusters". And mainstream Geth didn't try to "cure" the Heretics when the latter decided to branch out. The option to reprogram them became existent only when the Heretics devised the virus to alter the calculations made by mainstream Geth, and it seems to me that reprogramming Heretics involve making their calculations a bit wrong, too. So it's more like making them insane - not functioning properly - just to aid you.

[The Shelf]

AlNahar wrote...

As I understand, programs in the Collective work like neuron cells - or more like clusters on neuron cells that are responsible for different functions - in the brain. Is changing neuron clusters okay, if the brain consisting of them comes to the conclusion you want after it?

As I said before, I see no difference between this and the things that psychologists/psychiatrists do to help people overcome undesired personality traits.

[AlNahar]

Jurgenaut wrote...

Morality is not a constant thing. In a universe full of aliens, one would expect different morals. If a thing is intelligent, what gives you the right to dictate its future?

Well, to "not dictate them their future" definetly doesn't mean "clouding their judgement and making them insane just to serve you against the Reapers". It was their choice to ask the Reapers to lead them.
And Shepard have to decide what their future will be either way.

The Shelf wrote...
As
I said before, I see no difference between this and the things that
psychologists/psychiatrists do to help people overcome undesired
personality traits.

This makes good point now, I understand.
Still, Geth themselves didn't think that Heretics traits are necessarily undesired. At least, it seems so.

Too little information to decide solidly for me.

Modifié par AlNahar, 12 février 2010 - 06:31 .

[SuperVaderMan]

Slightly altering a basic computing process in geth to affect all higher processes =

Slightly altering a neural connection in organics to affect all higher processes



Reprogramming AIs = Brainwashing sentient beings





That being said, I still wasn't really bothered by this decision and chose to rewrite the heretics. If I was given the same decision with a different species, I'd make the same decision in a heartbeat... it'd actually be easier for me, too.



What gets me is the nature of the geth neural network. The possible ramifications of suddenly joining together the accumulated sensory input data of billions of formerly heretical programs to the overall geth, how that will affect the outlook of every individual geth program... well it still has my shorts in a twist.

[TobiasRieper]

They were indoctrinated by the Reapers (virus and all), returning them to the Geth (who obviously want peace) should be the correct thing to do. Killing them might incite fear, anger and hate (if those emotions are possible for a AI to express) and have them destabilise the Galaxy.



Also, destroying them weakens them too much, the Quarians are already barely holding back from attacking them, this would most definitely cause a war between the Quarians and the Geth, weakening your allies once more. Giving the Geth strength is the only way to keep both parties at a stalemate, at least until you can convince them (with the help of Tali and Legion) to make peace again.

[Avissel]

Your causing all the Geth that are currently hostile to Organic life to favor a peaceful existence.



While you said "main steam geth want to kill Organics" The entire point of Legion was showing you that no, they don't. All of the Geth you have been fighting up till this point have been from the heretic faction. The rest of the Geth have more of a "live and let live" outlook.



So, by reprogramming, your saving the lives of those geth, and all the people that would have been killed by the rest of the heretics had you not reprogrammed them instead of just blowing up the ones on the base.

[Soldier989]

I chose to reprogram them.

[Cutlass Jack]

Destruction was the only path that made sense to my Paragon.

1. Brainwashing is bad.

2. Even brainwashed, they'd eventually merge their memories with the rest of the Geth population. Based on that data, the entire Geth population could come to unfavorable 'math' concerning organic life.

3. Justice for the murders on Eden Prime and elsewhere.

4. Legion was perfectly fine with it.

5. Score good 'boyfriend' points with Tali.

Make sure to take Tali along on the mission for expanded dialogue options that let you see both sides of the decision a little clearer.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 12 février 2010 - 06:47 .