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[IMTrick]

AlNahar wrote...

IMTrick wrote...
With everything Shepard knows to that point, if the Geth are worshipping the Reapers, it seems pretty obvious to me that he'd see them as, well, defective; the Geth equivalent of mentally ill. Does a crazy person (or, in this case, a buggy andriod) have free will, or is he just sick?

Legion seems to put it in the other way - there are many different truths for different "program clusters". And mainstream Geth didn't try to "cure" the Heretics when the latter decided to branch out. The option to reprogram them became existent only when the Heretics devised the virus to alter the calculations made by mainstream Geth, and it seems to me that reprogramming Heretics involve making their calculations a bit wrong, too. So it's more like making them insane - not functioning properly - just to aid you.

True... from a Geth perspective.  But it's not a Geth making the decision; it's Shepard.  Sure, the argument could be made that Shepard's under some obligation to think like a Geth when making his decision, but given that the Geth are killing people, worshipping the greatest evil the universe has ever known, and following a path that will ultimately result in the annihalation of all sapient life in the known galaxy, it hardly seems rational to me that a paragon Shepard could conclude that those Geth had made a rational decision.  There *must* be something wrong with them, regardless of what Legion and the other "good" Geth believe, and that defect can be corrected by throwing the "reprogram" switch.

[AlNahar]

Geth were known for being hostile to anyone nearing their space before some of them became Reapers instruments. Legion is showing that Geth are more interested in contact, but not that they are suddenly all friendly, in my point of view.

Also, as Geth are strongly resistant to hacking/reprogramming - which is constantly stated through the game, and I specifically pointed to it - the "reprogrammed" can easily return to their conclusion, and all will be for nothing.

Modifié par AlNahar, 12 février 2010 - 06:49 .

[smudboy]

Considering Legion is your squadmate, and Legion = Geth, why wouldn't you want a larger army of Legion's?

[Creston918]

If I'm not mistaken, at some point Legion says that the "heretic" Geth amounts to maybe 5% of the entire Geth 'population.'



Therefore, rewriting their conclusions so you have more support is a bit of a spurious reason. 95% Geth or 100% isn't really that big of a difference when it comes to facing the Reapers, especially since you won't be able to take them head-on anyways.



My biggest worry was always that if you rewrite them, the Reapers show up and simply delete the virus, thereby restoring their original conclusion that the Reapers are the way to go.



Also, hey, the heretic Geth are the ones who attacked and wiped out Eden Prime. There needs to be justice for that. Here's your justice: Boom.

[Avissel]

AlNahar wrote...

Geth were known for being hostile to anyone nearing their space before some of them became Reapers instruments.

The codex disagrees.

"The Citadel
races
immediately sent ships to the edges of the Veil, expecting a geth
invasion would soon emerge. However, the geth made no attempt to attack
and have not been seen outside the Veil for centuries."

[Invalidcode]

If you use Geth or Legion set of moral, if you can call it moral. It is not unethical for the Geth. When you first enter the station, pick the 'they are just machine' option. Legion will explain to you that rewrite isn' the same as brainwash a organic.



Legion said the Heretic chose their own path, no one had the virus to rewrite the true geth or Heretics until the moment you set foot in the station.



I blew them up myself.

[AlNahar]

Avissel wrote...
"The Citadel
races
immediately sent ships to the edges of the Veil, expecting a geth
invasion would soon emerge. However, the geth made no attempt to attack
and have not been seen outside the Veil for centuries."

I don't see anything that is not matching my statement  here. They didn't launch the offensive, but destroyed those who tried to enter their space, this is what I'm saying. It is stated in the Mass Effect 1, in case of Carnucopia, that they even sent ships that tried to enter their space back as a warning.

Modifié par AlNahar, 12 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[jpom]

What made my decision for me was when you talk to Legion at the console and ask what he thinks, he'll tell you that the majority of Geth programs making him up choose to destroy the heretics. Granted the margin between the 2 is small and I have no idea how large our Sample size is in comparison to the total number of Geth but still Majority Rules.



The heretics are essentially a religious splinter group or terrorist group what right do we have to force them on a group of essentially peaceful "beings" when the majority does not want them, even if they have been reprogrammed/brainwashed this is a form of AI we're talking about and even Legion says there is no way to guarantee that the reprogramming won't be overridden at some point.

[JedTed]

I destroyed them because i see reprogramming as the same as indoctrination. While this may not be any less immoral, if they follow the Reapers then they are the enemy.



Plus, as the OP said, it would be easier to negotiate with the geth if we were on even ground.

[Haventh]

I choose to re-write the heretics. I thought it as a better option as the geth don't really want to follow reapers, and their help against the reapers would be very valuable.



Thats really the only reason i needed to make my choice.

[TobiasRieper]

AlNahar wrote...

Avissel wrote...
"The Citadel
races
immediately sent ships to the edges of the Veil, expecting a geth
invasion would soon emerge. However, the geth made no attempt to attack
and have not been seen outside the Veil for centuries."

I don't see anything that is not matching my statement  here. They didn't launch the offensive, but destroyed those who tried to enter their space, this is what I'm saying. It is stated in the Mass Effect 1, in case of Carnucopia, that they even sent ships that tried to enter their space back as a warning.

False. Carnucopia's commander became indoctrinated and sent his own craft into the Veil, he was most likely captured by Heretics, seeing how his crew was turned into husks and they could only have gotten that technology from Reapers.

[AlNahar]

TobiasRieper wrote...
False. Carnucopia's commander became indoctrinated and sent his own craft into the Veil, he was most likely captured by Heretics, seeing how his crew was turned into husks and they could only have gotten that technology from Reapers.

True. If it was as you say, they would have sent ship back for... wait, why? It is stated in the quest description (if I remember right) when you end it that it was a warning. It is written in the ME wiki from there anyway.

The crew was turned to husks as they found device themselves. This is clear from a captain's journal.

PS: Though there is stated a possibility that it is a trap also, yes. Still, it seems that Geth terrirtory is not largely err... scouted. For a reason.

It should be stressed, however, that in all forms the geth are to be
approached with extreme caution as they are universally violent.

Etc.

Edit 2:
Also, just thought now: Legion mentiones that Geth can't operate quite properly beyond the Veil. This can create problems if Shepard will try to use Geth fleet against the Reapers.
Still, Heretics operated in the Council space. Something is not right in the logic.

Modifié par AlNahar, 12 février 2010 - 09:08 .

[Gill Kaiser]

I chose rewrite because that option neutralises ALL heretics, whereas destruction of the station still leaves any heretic geth that weren't on the station still active. They might be able to build more of themselves.

Plus, 2 more of Legion's runtimes were in favour of rewriting.

[coinop25]

I tend to rewrite them, for reasons stated here and a few others:



1. Legion is very surprised that the heretics have been spying on his geth. This implies to me that the heretics aren't really even "true geth" anymore, but are more like corrupted programs that have been hacked by the reapers. Best analogy I can think of: A person may choose to join a cult, just as the heretics chose to join Sovereign, but that person might STAY in the cult because they've been drugged, and may still appreciate "deprogramming" after the fact.



2. Despite my analogy with humans, one thing I found compelling was to give Shepard's renegade dialog option at the beginning of Legion's loyalty quest -- "They're only machines." Legion actually agrees with you when you say this, basically saying that it doesn't really make sense to apply human ethics to his "people"; the comparison just isn't always going to line up right.



3. If the heretics reintegrate, it may give us clues as to what Sovereign was doing behind the scenes! Worst case scenario is that we just need to blow up more geth, and I have to make sure I get to use this AI Hacking skill in ME3 anyway...

[Sbri]

I choose to re-write their programming. Legion said that the reason they split from the Geth in the first place was that Sovereign introduced a change to their code, effectively indoctrinating them. Changing their programming back seemed to be "freeing" them from their indoctrination to me.

[OfTheFaintSmile]

I just don't think Bioware will punish us renegades for making choices like killing the Rachni queen or destroying the heretic geth, I think instead of alien allies against the reapers in ME3 we renegades will get more super-weapons like the collector base (if you saved it and gave it to TIM)

[gotthammer]

I reprogrammed them. IMHO, they're just bots anyway. Bah w/ any arguments that they're 'sentient'.
(heh, I've read/watched enough of those AI arguments from Ghost in the Shell....)
I'm gonna use 'em for the sequel (hopefully that's an option) by helping that Quarian admiral, then I'll have a nice army of Geth. And this is for a Paragon character.

(if I were playing a Renegade, I'd still rewrite/reprogram them...destroying those Geth would just be so wasteful. I drew a line w/ the Collector base, tho': my Paragon cooked it )

[SharpEdgeSoda]

I blew the sucka up.



I am mostly paragon, but I do not think a few less geth will effect anything. It was only 5 percent of the Geth Population anyway. And because of how the geth mindeset works, it wasn't really killing individuals, mor like, "declawing" the Geth as a whole.

[Shatakai]

I'm confused. Was that single base what housed the majority of the Heretics? I was under the impression it was simply an fortified outpost housing the virus.

[D4rk50ul808]

Considering you aren't really brainwashing the renegade Geth I would say reprogram them. They were separated from their race because of Reaper influence not because of a clear minded choice. The Rachni were the first, and Geth the second race that they attempted to use to win the war. I'd prefer to build my allie's numbers considering the counsel races might turn their back completely on the cause in ME3 and you know for sure the Rachni/Geth want their revenge.

[TheLostGenius]

Did anyone else notice (probably a coincidence). In ME1 Soveirgn says "We are Legion" and you get a Geth called Legion...just a coincidence...either the Quarians become enemies in my ME3 or the Geth betray Shepard...(which seems more likely). When you re-write the Geth even the mission summary says that it will probably be problematic.

[Driving Ghost]

After reviewing data, a full consensus has not been reached.



Platform is open for inquiry's

[TheLostGenius]

Legion's logical sounding statements of nothingess is deceptive...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Did anyone else notice (probably a coincidence). In ME1 Soveirgn says "We are Legion" and you get a Geth called Legion...just a coincidence...either the Quarians become enemies in my ME3 or the Geth betray Shepard...(which seems more likely). When you re-write the Geth even the mission summary says that it will probably be problematic.

This is one thing that makes these games great. It's the moral dilemmas. The Cyclic Dilemma, Prisoner's Dilemma, and the grandaddy of them all, the Probability Dilemma. This one is more of a Prisoner's Dilemma.

Machines don't betray. People do. EDI came up with "Legion."

We are Geth. Much like the Borg, the Geth are truly sentient only when they are as a collective. By reprogramming you chose sides. Geth will see this as a black or white choice. You chose collectives.

By choosing to reprogram you strengthen Legion's collective. Legion's collective opposes the Reapers. And having them join you increase your odds against the Reapers. But you also created a mess for Tali and the Migrant fleet, because the Quarians want to retake their homeworld. In the end will the Quarians strike back at the Geth, or did you just make the Geth too strong to be defeated by the Quarians?

So the best result can be achieved through cooperation and by the Quarians giving up their idea of retaking their homeworld. I would expect the Geth to abide by this because when the reach consensus as a collective the vote is say "1". 1 means they leave the Quarians alone to settle on another world so long as the Quarians leave them alone. Geth do not need a habitable world in the sense that organics do.

However, this alliance is one of convenience and will be short lived because the Quarians are emotional beings instead of logical and will be the ones to betray the consensus at the first opportunity, unless their leaders can be convinced to recognize the Geth collective and abandon their own hopes and dreams and find a new homeworld.

So in the end there is no perfect solution here.