31 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkemorrow]

Ok, so Defense works in opposition to your opponent's attack score - thus the higher Defense you have, the less likely you are to be hit. Items the add a % Chance to Dodge or % Chance to Avoid Missile Attacks do exactly as advertised, or so I would assume. My question is, how do the two stack up against each other? How much +defense do I need to gain the same mitigation I would get from 10% dodge? And is there some other extra benefit to having either that I'm not aware of?

I'm wondering because I'm trying to compare the defensive value of an item like The Libertarian's Cowl (+12 Defense) to the First Enchanter's Cowl (10% Chance to Dodge Attacks, 4% Spell Resist), or of the Magus War Boots (+12 Defense) to The Lion's Paw (10% Chance to Dodge Attacks, 10% Chance to Avoid Missile Attacks).

Neither the Dragon Age Wiki nor The Missing Manual seems to have any detailed information on how these mechanics work, so I have no metric for comparing the two.

[soteria]

Well, I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but I'll take a shot. The "Chance to avoid missile attacks" isn't usually expressed as a percentage. It just means you'll gain 5 or 10 defense vs missile attacks (check your character sheet with the item on and off, you'll see). The 10% chance to dodge is calculated much like evasion. That is, before the game compares attack and defense, first it gives you a 10% chance to just avoid the attack. That makes it slightly weaker than defense in my eyes, since you're dodging attacks you might have evaded via defense anyway.

Here's the formula, from the toolset wiki: bHit = RandomF(100.0)

Meaning, a hit is scored if a random number between 1 and 100 is less than attack - defense. So say you have 120 defense, and they have 140 attack. The difference is 20, so they have a 19% chance to hit you.  If your defense was 130, they would have a 9% chance to hit you.  If instead you equipped a displacement item like the 20% to dodge, first you'd have a 20% chance to completely ignore the attack, and then a 19% chance to be hit, still. 

It would be like adding 4 defense.  (0.8 * 0.19 = 0.15).  I'm sure someone will come along and correct me any time.

Modifié par soteria, 12 février 2010 - 06:11 .

[Darkemorrow]

soteria wrote...

Well, I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but I'll take a shot. The "Chance to avoid missile attacks" isn't usually expressed as a percentage. It just means you'll gain 5 or 10 defense vs missile attacks (check your character sheet with the item on and off, you'll see).

Yeah, I think you're right about the Chance to Avoid Missile Attacks. The wiki lists Lion's Paw as having "10% Chance to Avoid Missile Attacks", but I just checked the in-game description and it just says "Chance to Avoid Missile Attacks" without a percent.

soteria wrote...

The 10% chance to dodge is calculated much like evasion. That is, before the game compares attack and defense, first it gives you a 10% chance to just avoid the attack. That makes it slightly weaker than defense in my eyes, since you're dodging attacks you might have evaded via defense anyway.

Here's the formula, from the toolset wiki: bHit = RandomF(100.0)

Meaning, a hit is scored if a random number between 1 and 100 is less than attack - defense. So say you have 120 defense, and they have 140 attack. The difference is 20, so they have a 19% chance to hit you.  If your defense was 130, they would have a 9% chance to hit you.  If instead you equipped a displacement item like the 20% to dodge, first you'd have a 20% chance to completely ignore the attack, and then a 19% chance to be hit, still. 

It would be like adding 4 defense.  (0.8 * 0.19 = 0.15).  I'm sure someone will come along and correct me any time.

EDIT: Okay I did some math myself and I think you are right.

My level 25 Mage wearing Libertarian's Cowl, Reaper's Vestments, and Magus War Boots has 90 Defense and 10% Dodge. So an enemy with 100 attack would have a 90% chance of passing her dodge, and a 10% chance of passing her defense, for a total 9% chance to hit her. An enemy with 150 attack would have a 90% chance to pass her dodge, and a 60% chance of passing her defense, for a total 54% chance to hit her.

If I were to switch out Libertarian's Cowl and Magus War Boots for First Enchanter's Cowl and The Lion's Paw, she would have 66 Defense and 30% Dodge. An enemy with 100 attack would have a 70% chance of passing her dodge, and a 34% chance of passing her defense, for a total 23.8% chance to hit her. An enemy with 150 attack would have 70% of passing her dodge, and a 84% chance of passing her defense, for a total 58.8% chance to hit her.

It seems +12 Defense is better than 10% Chance to Dodge across the board. Thanks for the info!

Modifié par Darkemorrow, 12 février 2010 - 06:48 .

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

The higher your defense the less that dodge will matter ... however if your dodge is higher than your base defense then increasing it by 10 will make more of a difference than +12 defense.



In your example of Def 90, Dodge 10% ... clearly +12 Def is better.



However if the numbers were Def 60, Dodge 65 ... then +10% more dodge would make a bigger difference.



But all that's vs normal attacks. Some attacks, like the Mage's Staff attack or many Warrior/Rogue talents, always hit regardless of Def, but I'm pretty sure you can dodge them. A really comprehensive analysis would take into account how frequently you faced one sort of attack vs the other.

[Darkemorrow]

That's a good point, though I'm not sure it is actually possible that you can end up with a defense score so low or a dodge score so high that adding more dodge is going to be better than adding more defense

EDIT: Actually... I take that back.

A rogue could get 20% Dodge from Evasion, 20% from Cailan's Greaves, 10% from Spellward, and 10% from First Enchanter's Cowl for a total of 60% Dodge... that's pretty crazy.

Even a mage could get 10% from Reaper's vestments, 20% from Cailan's Greaves (if they went Arcane Warrior) or 10% from The Lion's Paw (if they have it) then 10% from Spellward and 10% from First Enchanter's Cowl for a total of 40-50% Dodge.

There might be even more % Dodge items I'm forgetting... I'm going to search the wiki.

EDIT AGAIN: Okay so Guildmaster's Belt has 5% dodge, but you can only get that if you got it as a preorder bonus.

Still, there's a lot more % Dodge items out there than I originally thought...

Modifié par Darkemorrow, 12 février 2010 - 07:33 .

[soteria]

I don't know for sure if % dodge items work exactly like evasion, but having a chance to avoid attacks like Grab, Massive Attack and Overwhelm is pretty big, imo, and defense doesn't help at all for that. I would agree that the higher your defense, the more worthwhile it is to stack % dodge items assuming it does work like evasion.

[Random70]

soteria wrote...

 The 10% chance to dodge is calculated much like evasion...

I think this may be a little off, for two reasons:

1) According to the tooltip (which is always accurate, right?) evasion also adds a chance to avoid stun & knockdown which is not indicated anywhere that I know of for +% dodge.

2) There are about a zillion posts on this forum from people complaining that after selecting evasion their rogue is now constantly throwing up the 'block' animation. I'm running 2H solo currently, who has +20% Dodge from Evon + Spellward. This should be comparable to evasion, however this character has thrown the 'block' animation only 2-3 times over the course of the game thus far. My defense with this character is ~60 which means I should be getting hit almost  constantly and yet I've noted more misses than I expected so +% Dodge seems to be working.

Perhaps +% Dodge causes enemy misses without utilizing the extra animation? If so, this buff just got a lot more interesting. I might have to dust off those Cailin's Boots I have stashed.

Modifié par Random70, 12 février 2010 - 07:32 .

[Darkemorrow]

I also forgot Evon the Great's Mail, which has another 10% dodge.

So you could equip: Evon the Great's (or Reaper's Vestments as a Mage) for 10%, Cailan's Boots for 20%, First Enchanter's Cowl for 10%, Spellward for 10%, and Guildmaster's Belt (if you have it) for 5%, all for a grand total of 55% Chance to Dodge.

Add another 20% to that if you are a rogue with Evasion for up to 75% Dodge. Now that is just crazy.

EDIT: According to the wiki, Evasion grants +20% Dodge/Parry, +20% Resist Stun/Knockdown. So it seems like that would contribute directly to your total % Chance to Dodge.

Modifié par Darkemorrow, 12 février 2010 - 07:40 .

[soteria]

Random70 wrote...

soteria wrote...

 The 10% chance to dodge is calculated much like evasion...

I think this may be a little off, for two reasons:

1) According to the tooltip (which is always accurate, right?) evasion also adds a chance to avoid stun & knockdown which is not indicated anywhere that I know of for +% dodge.

2) There are about a zillion posts on this forum from people complaining that after selecting evasion their rogue is now constantly throwing up the 'block' animation. I'm running 2H solo currently, who has +20% Dodge from Evon + Spellward. This should be comparable to evasion, however this character has thrown the 'block' animation only 2-3 times over the course of the game thus far. My defense with this character is ~60 which means I should be getting hit almost  constantly and yet I've noted more misses than I expected so +% Dodge seems to be working.

Perhaps +% Dodge causes enemy misses without utilizing the extra animation? If so, this buff just got a lot more interesting. I might have to dust off those Cailin's Boots I have stashed.

Right.  Well, after looking at the scripts, I didn't see any indication that % dodge lets you evade auto-hit attacks, but I didn't do an exhaustive search.  I meant more that evasion and % dodge are similar in that they are calculated separately from defense (multiplied) rather than together (added).  The GetAttackResult script shows that both evasion and % dodge are calculated before defense, although it notes that evasion includes an animation that dodge doesn't.

[Darkemorrow]

soteria wrote...

Random70 wrote...

soteria wrote...

 The 10% chance to dodge is calculated much like evasion...

I think this may be a little off, for two reasons:

1) According to the tooltip (which is always accurate, right?) evasion also adds a chance to avoid stun & knockdown which is not indicated anywhere that I know of for +% dodge.

2) There are about a zillion posts on this forum from people complaining that after selecting evasion their rogue is now constantly throwing up the 'block' animation. I'm running 2H solo currently, who has +20% Dodge from Evon + Spellward. This should be comparable to evasion, however this character has thrown the 'block' animation only 2-3 times over the course of the game thus far. My defense with this character is ~60 which means I should be getting hit almost  constantly and yet I've noted more misses than I expected so +% Dodge seems to be working.

Perhaps +% Dodge causes enemy misses without utilizing the extra animation? If so, this buff just got a lot more interesting. I might have to dust off those Cailin's Boots I have stashed.

Right.  Well, after looking at the scripts, I didn't see any indication that % dodge lets you evade auto-hit attacks, but I didn't do an exhaustive search.  I meant more that evasion and % dodge are similar in that they are calculated separately from defense (multiplied) rather than together (added).  The GetAttackResult script shows that both evasion and % dodge are calculated before defense, although it notes that evasion includes an animation that dodge doesn't.

Does that mean Evasion adds to your Chance to Dodge, or multiplies both Dodge and Defense?

[soteria]

Multiplies, just like % dodge.

[Random70]

soteria wrote...
Right.  Well, after looking at the scripts, I didn't see any indication that % dodge lets you evade auto-hit attacks, but I didn't do an exhaustive search.  I meant more that evasion and % dodge are similar in that they are calculated separately from defense (multiplied) rather than together (added).  The GetAttackResult script shows that both evasion and % dodge are calculated before defense, although it notes that evasion includes an animation that dodge doesn't.

That's pretty huge, actually. Thx for looking it up.

[Darkemorrow]

soteria wrote...

Multiplies, just like % dodge.

Ah okay. Then it seems that the most dodge you can stack is the 50-55% from items. Although multiplying another 20% evasion on top of that is still pretty awesome.

[Allison W]

So what I'm hearing from this is that dodge from items stacks, but doesn't stack with Evasion, and neither one of them directly adds to Defense, such that a character with Evasion, 20% Dodge/Parry from items, and a 50% chance for the enemy's Attack roll to exceed their Defense, would have a .8 * .8 * .5 = 32% total chance to be hit. Is that correct?

[soteria]

If I'm understanding the script correctly, yes, that is correct. And even if Evasion is added to your 20% to dodge, it's only a small difference (.6 * .5 = 30%).

[Allison W]

Good to know. Thank you.

[beancounter501]

A little to the party, but I was checking out dodge items for my AW build. IMO, + dodge will probably always be better then +defense. An AW with Fade Shroud + Repears + Calians Greaves + Spellward + First Enchanters Hat would have a dodge of 75%. That blocks most attacks with a to-hit roll.



The thing to keep in mind is that the to hit roll is not a flat Attack Rating vs Defense Rating. It is attacks rating + 54 + flanking bonus vs Defense Rating. You need a really high defense to be unhittable, over the 150 mark. Even then the big bosses have a pretty high attack rating. Plus there are a couple of spells that can create a really high defense. Arcane Shield + Glyph of Warding + Heroic Defense should give you 90+ defense in the high levels.



And Evasion stacks with Dodge.

[soteria]

Ok. Say you have 120 defense and 20% dodge, and you're being attacked by an enemy with 97 attack. They have an 80% chance to beat your %dodge and a 30% chance to beat your defense (< 97 + 54 - 120), meaning a 24% chance to hit you (.8 * .3). If you add 10 defense, it changes to 16% (.8 * .2). If you add 10% dodge, it changes to 21% (.7 * .3).



How is dodge better than defense? The lower your defense, the stronger dodge gets relatively speaking. Another way of saying that is, "Dodge is at its strongest when you have access to very few items that grant dodge."

[beancounter501]

How about this saying: "Dodge sets the maximum hit rate that any critter can have against you. Regardless of their attack rating." Trash mob or High Dragon they will never be able to get a higher hit rate then your dodge.



Now, if the spread between your defense and their attack is close then + defense is probably better. But what about against a high attack boss where there is a much wider spread between your defense and their attack. In those cases dodge is more useful. I have no idea what sort of attack rating the big bosses have, but my tank always seems to get hit a lot. Even with a high defense. And we are talking about going from 66 defense to 100 defense. You have played the game enough to know that you are still going to be hit a lot with a 100 defense.



Of course the best is to max both. A max dex + dodge rogue or a max dodge AW with a couple of defense spells would probably be unhittable.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...

How about this saying: "Dodge sets the maximum hit rate that any critter can have against you. Regardless of their attack rating." Trash mob or High Dragon they will never be able to get a higher hit rate then your dodge.

Dragons, from what I can tell, attack exclusively with 'special' attacks which are auto-hit. Unless something in the code says otherwise, +% dodge won't help here. In addition, I don't believe there are enough +%dodge items in the game to grant total protection whereas a DEX based character can, in fact, achieve 'unhitable' status, outside of stuns and specials.

beancounter501 wrote...
Now, if the spread between your defense and their attack is close then + defense is probably better. But what about against a high attack boss where there is a much wider spread between your defense and their attack. In those cases dodge is more useful. I have no idea what sort of attack rating the big bosses have, but my tank always seems to get hit a lot. Even with a high defense. And we are talking about going from 66 defense to 100 defense. You have played the game enough to know that you are still going to be hit a lot with a 100 defense.

Of course the best is to max both. A max dex + dodge rogue or a max dodge AW with a couple of defense spells would probably be unhittable.

A 100 defense is not much and if that is all that you can achieve, then by all means look to grab +%dodge items. If you're in the 'tweener' region, say ~115-130 then you have some decisions to make. Magisters or Spellward? Diligence boots or Cailan's? Once you get north of 130 it would seem that you would be better off maximizing your defense through gear, talents, Incense or enemy debuffs vs. swapping gear for +%dodge. At the high end of the scale a max DEX Rogue or Warrior, as stated previously,  is already 'unhitable' for all intents and purposes and the only reason they would look at +%dodge is:
1) Backup protection in case of stuns
2) If you take too long to kill high-end warriors, they will often light up Perfect Striking, which can cut through any defense.

[beancounter501]

Well, first off some of the Dragons special talents still require a too hit roll. But, I was using that more to illustrate a point that Dodge applies regardless of the attackers rating. It works equally as well against Boss critters with a 250 attack as it does against a trash mob with a 10 attack.



Defense on the other hand is much more situational. Adding ten points to defense does not mean squat if your attacker has an attack rating 60 points over your defense. He is still going to auto hit you. On the other hand if the gap is close then adding ten points to your defense may be all it takes to make you unhittable. Or you may already be unhittable to the average trash mob and adding 10 points to defense is a complete waste. BUT, it is entirely situational.



The real question is what are you giving up by going for dodge? I think it is a pretty good trade off to gain 30 to 40 points of dodge for 25 points of defense.



But that is all theory/nerd craft. Where is Soteria! We need a playthrough with a max dodge Arcane Wizard! Lets see him Solo the game with a max dodge mage!

[TBastian]

Odd that there are pure wizards who know the value of defense, but many AW/SS players who don't.

I agree that it depends on what you're trading the dodge for. We're just going around in circles though, basically all you need to know has already been taken cared of two or so posts earlier.

Whether dodge or defense protects you from skills like Overwhelm and Grab is another matter. I don't think there's any point discussing that without calling on other factors like the viability of a pure dexterity character, party setups, bugs, exploits, tactics, etc.

Modifié par TBastian, 23 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[soteria]

But that is all theory/nerd craft. Where is Soteria! We need a playthrough with a max dodge Arcane Wizard! Lets see him Solo the game with a max dodge mage!

Lol! We have to go back and forth for a few more pages before I throw up my hands and just play the game.

Defense on the other hand is much more situational. Adding ten points to defense does not mean squat if your attacker has an attack rating 60 points over your defense. He is still going to auto hit you. On the other hand if the gap is close then adding ten points to your defense may be all it takes to make you unhittable. Or you may already be unhittable to the average trash mob and adding 10 points to defense is a complete waste. BUT, it is entirely situational.



The real question is what are you giving up by going for dodge? I think it is a pretty good trade off to gain 30 to 40 points of dodge for 25 points of defense.

It's true that the relative value of defense is variable. Another point to consider is that you lose your dexterity bonus to defense while stunned, but not flat +defense. I don't know about +dodge, but I'd guess you keep that, too.



In my experience, I usually hit 100 defense pretty early in the game. I'd have to pull some save files to be sure, but I think around lvl 10. Yes, you do still get hit a lot at that level. Thing is, a number of the +dodge items are either DLC or class restricted or really expensive. I have never tried to get a strong +dodge set early on in the game, but math indicates that it gets weaker and weaker the higher your defense gets--and I don't think anyone is arguing against high defense.



Further muddying the waters is the fact that the higher your +dodge is, the more valuable that becomes, as well. And beyond that, to be relevant, we have to look at cases where we are actually choosing between dodge and defense (as in the OP), rather than just some general rule. Maybe someone smarter than I am can figure out a formula where you plug in your defense and dodge and it cranks out the relative values of each (you would have to assume an attack value, or leave it as another variable).

[beancounter501]

I think I will give up before we go a couple of pages!



I don't think you can get a good dodge bonus until latter in the game. And there is not exactly a ton of dodge gear laying around. So most of the time it does not matter.



To be honest I am mostly thinking of it for an AW. Good gear + Fade Shroud would give you a 75 dodge. Granted, that is in the late levels. Fade Shroud + Repears Vestments + First Enchanters hat + Calians Boots + Spellward would give you a solid combination of Dodge and low fatigue. LOL, but it would probably be really ugly to look at!



I wonder what kind of defense you could get as a mage with that gear? Probably not that high unless you stack Heroic Defense & Glyph of Warding.



@Tbastian - The best defense for a pure mage is a Tank + Taunt. After that Glyph of Repulsion for melee and Glyph of Warding for Archers. If all else fails just mind blast to clear aggro and go hide behind your warrior. But boosting defense by 20 or so points is not going to save your butt if you draw agro from a big nasty boss when you are wearing robes.

[TBastian]

A pure mage can draw so much aggro its ridiculous, and this can be problematic especially in Nightmare when just about anything can randomly resist anything you throw at them. Defense can help at this point. Even Repulsion is not foolproof, and Archers in nightmare have such high attacks I think the best way to deal with them is just kill them outright.

When you're fighting a big nasty boss, that's when a tank + Taunt becomes invaluable. Not the other way round.

Robes and other mage armors do much more than boost your defense by 20, heh. Check just how many mage items there are that greatly boost defense, and you might be surprised.

Any mage can reliably tank a Revenant as early as LvL 8 in nightmare, using in the correct setup. That's how high their defense can go.