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I want to have my cake and eat it


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#26
blademaster7

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Sir Buliwyf wrote...

I'm not sure how letting Loghain die at the dragon and saving my life doing so is worse than him dieing at the tip of my sword and then me dieing at the dragon. Whether he is "fully" redeemed is of course a point for debate, and i would say that is is not enough, but something is better than nothing..

The Ultimate Sacrifice is the "best" way to end this game IMO. I did it and never felt regret.

BUT, if you're looking for an alternative... see above posts.

The ending I described in my previous post is the "convenient" one if you don't plan on accepting Morrigan's offer. Loghain reedeems himself, Alistair gets to rule as a king and you live happily ever after(even better if you romance Leli/Zev). You can also use the save for the expansion, without resorting to the new Orlesian char.

Modifié par blademaster7, 12 février 2010 - 09:23 .


#27
Sir Buliwyf

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"The Ultimate Sacrifice is the "best" way to end this game IMO. I did it and never felt regret."



You're right there, and when it happened I was totally happy with how it went down. I don't regret it either. If i knew there was no way to import your character to the next game I wouldn't mind so much, heh.

#28
SusanStoHelit

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Sir Buliwyf wrote...

I'm not sure how letting Loghain die at the dragon and saving my life doing so is worse than him dieing at the tip of my sword and then me dieing at the dragon. Whether he is "fully" redeemed is of course a point for debate, and i would say that is is not enough, but something is better than nothing..


Because it sets him up as a 'hero' to the people of Ferelden. And he isn't. It discounts all those who were killed or worse because of Loghain's actions, the Banns and their followers whom Loghain suppressed, the elves sold into slavery, the communities overrun and abandoned to the darkspawn. It discounts Cailan's death and Duncan's and so much else besides.

Instead of being reviled as the villain he was, he'll be seen as a great hero. To quote someone I greatly admire "I can't be having with that."

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 12 février 2010 - 09:31 .


#29
Sir Buliwyf

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Loghain *is* a hero of the people, and despite the actions he took during this period, some people in Ferelden would still think of him as one. Don't discount his actions in the rebellion. I'm not saying he isn't a villain too or that anything could make up for the actions he took during the game, but he has also given a lot of good to Ferelden too.



To me also, how someone is seen is much less important to how they actually are.

#30
melkathi

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Sir Buliwyf wrote...

Sleeping with Morrigan - Not an option.
Sending Alistair to sleep with Morrigan - Not an option.
Sending Alistair to die - Not an option.

*I'm a good guy, I don't like to do bad things!!!*


Good guy or bad guy is irrelevant:
You are a guy and you refuse when a gorgeous woman tells you "Let me f your brains out to save your life."  ???
Have you really thought about this?:whistle::innocent:

Modifié par melkathi, 12 février 2010 - 09:50 .


#31
Vicious

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Loghain is redeemable. That's really all that matters. Cailan and Duncan? They are quite dead. Are you worried that you have to explain your letting him live to their ghosts or something? I guess it just depends on a person's personal ethics and wisdom more than anything.

#32
SinYang

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Sir Buliwyf wrote...

Loghain *is* a hero of the people, and despite the actions he took during this period, some people in Ferelden would still think of him as one. Don't discount his actions in the rebellion. I'm not saying he isn't a villain too or that anything could make up for the actions he took during the game, but he has also given a lot of good to Ferelden too.

To me also, how someone is seen is much less important to how they actually are.


Its worth noting even Alistair can concur on this, his comments range from... "justice has been served" to "im not angry with you warden" after loghain's death vs archdemon. I gotta question the nature of someone who laughs at him being dead as Wynne seemed too, something about dead heros cant take praise. Remind me why I trusted her at circle tower (disapproves -10), who is really the villian here - the fade demon in a dress. Posted Image  

#33
Sir Buliwyf

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melkathi wrote...

Sir Buliwyf wrote...

Sleeping with Morrigan - Not an option.
Sending Alistair to sleep with Morrigan - Not an option.
Sending Alistair to die - Not an option.

*I'm a good guy, I don't like to do bad things!!!*


Good guy or bad guy is irrelevant:
You are a guy and you refuse when a gorgeous woman tells you "Let me f your brains out to save your life."  ???
Have you really thought about this?:whistle::innocent:

lol, Leliana was my woman, and I'm not the sleep around type :P

#34
Barbarossa2010

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Sir Buliwyf wrote...

"The Ultimate Sacrifice is the "best" way to end this game IMO. I did it and never felt regret."

You're right there, and when it happened I was totally happy with how it went down. I don't regret it either. If i knew there was no way to import your character to the next game I wouldn't mind so much, heh.



No regret here either and 3 agrees on this.  My Warden's sacrifical end was the best ending I could have asked for in this game.  From the final good-byes at Denerim's Gate and making the killing blow, to the eulogy and the Epilogue...truly Epic! 

#35
Maria Caliban

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Creature 1 wrote...

She might have theological concerns. 


She never seems to be bothered about traveling around with an apostate. If you take her to the Circle Tower and let the desire demon that's beguiled the Templar go, you gain a bit of approval with her because you've made someone's life happier.

I see Leliana as being less worried about the theological implications of the dark ritual, as much as being worried that Morrigan would raise the child just to do something horrible to it.

#36
Gold Dragon

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I agree. The Ultimate Sacrifice Ending was probably the best ending. But for Morrigan. What's she doing in Orlais?

Still.... every noblewoman I've played has convinced Alistair to do the "Dark Ritual".... And with so many choices, there isn't even any hint as to what may become "canon".....


editted for spelling

Modifié par A Golden Dragon, 12 février 2010 - 10:45 .


#37
SusanStoHelit

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Vicious wrote...

Loghain is redeemable. That's really all that matters. Cailan and Duncan? They are quite dead. Are you worried that you have to explain your letting him live to their ghosts or something? I guess it just depends on a person's personal ethics and wisdom more than anything.


No, I just can't live with the decision myself, in the persona of my character(s). And yes, it does depend on a person's personal ethics and wisdom; on that, I couldn't agree more.

If I could spit on Loghain's corpse, perhaps urinate on it as well, and maybe dance around it with glee - I would.

#38
melkathi

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Sir Buliwyf wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Sir Buliwyf wrote...

Sleeping with Morrigan - Not an option.
Sending Alistair to sleep with Morrigan - Not an option.
Sending Alistair to die - Not an option.

*I'm a good guy, I don't like to do bad things!!!*


Good guy or bad guy is irrelevant:
You are a guy and you refuse when a gorgeous woman tells you "Let me f your brains out to save your life."  ???
Have you really thought about this?:whistle::innocent:

lol, Leliana was my woman, and I'm not the sleep around type :P



"Leliana, my love...
I do not know how to tell you this. I know I shouldn't tell you. There are some things we wardens are not allowed to share... but if anyone, you have the right to know."
*gulp*
*takes deep breath*

"Here goes: I will die fighting the Archdemon. That is what wardens do, why they are needed... we.. absorb the soul, destroying the arch demon's soul... and ours as well."
"I wish there was another way. I do not want to leave you, ever. But I have to do this. Even if only so I know you are safe."
"Morrigan may claim her apostate magics could make sacrifice unnecessary. But it's a price I cannot pay.
I am yours and what she asks is too much.
How could I be with you, if to be with you i had to betray you? Even if it was only for one night?"
*hold her tight*
"No, I love you too much. Like in the tales, I shall die to honour my love. I just wish for once a tale would have a happy ending where the hero and his princess live happily ever after..."

"Are you certain? I can not... no... do not make me... ok, I'll do this for you... for us. I hope you will be able to forgive me though... and only because you insist."




There: problem solved with reverse psychology :innocent:

#39
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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I found the ultimate sacrifce ending to be as difficult and painful to accept as doing the dark ritual, because the one you love ends up utterly destroyed by your death. Alistair breaks down and runs off and disappears because he can't take losing his girl, if you didn't make him king. If you did, it's only the kingdom and his advisors really keeping him from doing something stupid with grief. If you romanced Zevran, Zevran ends up returning to crows and never loving anyone else again. He, too ends up broken inside, a lonely, sad man.



Leliana also has a very sad ending if you die. Though the epilogue is open to interpretation, she, like Alistair, ends up disappearing, and the way it's worded makes it sound like she went off and committed suicide.



Anyway, what I'm saying, is that you can take the ritual as a good guy, as a way of sparing your love some very tragic, sad fate or life. After all, though your character doesn't know this will happen, my guess is that he would not be happy at all if Leliana ended up killing herself from grief because she didn't want to live without him.



Of course, I understand your reasons as well for not taking the ritual. After all, it is a big question mark. For one, you can't be sure on whether or not preserving an old god is a good thing or bad thing. Nor do you know what exactly Morrigan plans on doing with said child, or what said child will be like. Or what future consequences such an action will have. It depends alot on how your character view Morrigan and how he gets on.



And of course, there is the fact that you are sleeping with another woman, even though it's purely business. While Lel might be willing to accept it if she knew it would save your life, it seems your character would have a hard time coming to terms with it.



I found it the hardest damned choice in the game. Bhelen vs. Harrowmont? Coin flip. Don't care either way, both are losers. Elves vs. werewolves? Easy. Make Zathrien see what an ass he's been by beating some sense into his skull. Situation takes care of itself. Mages vs. Templars? Mages FTW. Chantry needs a good ****-slap, anyway. Defend Redcliffe or abandon it? Extra xp, loot, minor plot bonuses, and a good feeling. Plus, Teagan asked me. I always do as Teagan commands. Bann Sexy is awesome. Kill Connor or Isolde, or get the circle to help? Depends on the character I'm playing. No brainer there.



But give Morrigan demon/god child? No matter what playthrough, that part always gets me. The next choice I find difficult is ahrden/unharden Alistair and thus, who do I put on the throne?

#40
maxernst

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At least on my first playthrough, I'm not going to spare Loghain for the same reason I'm not going to harden Alistair--it requires metagaming. My character doesn't know that choosing that stupid line will strengthen Alistair's character and he doesn't know that he can trust Loghain. The man has spent the entire time sabotaging the Grey Warden's efforts to fight the blight and trying to kill me. He betrayed his commander on the battlefield the last time and I don't intend to give him another chance. He's perfectly capable of making a "tactical retreat" in the hopes that he can kill the archdemon later and that getting me and my companions killed right now will enable him to seize power in Ferelden again after the blight is dealt with.

#41
SirOccam

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
Your character might not want to do it if romancing Leliana or Zevran either, but again that's another matter.


I don't know about Leliana but Zev would certainly tell you to go for it if it would save your life. 

Lel's still willing to be your girl on the side if you marry Alistair or Anora, so I suspect she'd support the dark ritual idae, too.

Yeah, they might be okay with it, but that doesn't necessarily mean your character has to be okay with it too. And I did say "your character might not want to do it," not "zev/lel might not want you to do it."

As for the ultimate sacrifice, I agree that it is very poignant, and I'm not sorry I felt like I should choose that first. But if this is not the end of the story, then I want to keep on playing my character. Hence re-loading an earlier save.Posted Image Whatever Dragon Age game is the last one, if the option is available, then I will gladly choose that option again. I just don't want an abrupt cast change part way through.

#42
Sir Buliwyf

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hehehe... Bioware did a good job on this one. Thumbs up to you guys and your evil twisting of my heart ;)

#43
SusanStoHelit

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maxernst wrote...

At least on my first playthrough, I'm not going to spare Loghain for the same reason I'm not going to harden Alistair--it requires metagaming. My character doesn't know that choosing that stupid line will strengthen Alistair's character and he doesn't know that he can trust Loghain. The man has spent the entire time sabotaging the Grey Warden's efforts to fight the blight and trying to kill me. He betrayed his commander on the battlefield the last time and I don't intend to give him another chance. He's perfectly capable of making a "tactical retreat" in the hopes that he can kill the archdemon later and that getting me and my companions killed right now will enable him to seize power in Ferelden again after the blight is dealt with.


Exactly my thoughts, and what I did, first time through. I did do the ritual, though, and my male pc was a Cousland so he romanced Morrigan for love - but married Anora for political reasons. Because he doesn't trust that daughter of a bastard much more than he did her father.

#44
Veritasinpersonam

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Man, I don't know how you can even make the argument that foregoing the ritual with Morrigan is anything BUT evil. There are only three grey wardens out on the field to take out the archdemon. If all of them die (which is extremely likely), thousands will die as Denerim and then Ferelden falls. However if the ritual is completed, then the archdemon can be permanently defeated by ANY soldier on the field landing the killing blow.

#45
errant_knight

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Eudaemonium wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I get where you are with this. My PC was as good as is possible in Thedas, but I still went with the ritual. I bleieved Morrigan that she wouldn't mistreat the child, and would probably treat it in a way that was kinder than Flemeth treated her. Not saying it wouldn't be tough love, but I don't think she'd smash it's gold mirror. ;)

It also seemed possible that she was right about saving the soul of the untainted old god. This cycle of 'corrupt the old god, wave it in front of the wardens, watch them kill it' kind of smells funny. There's something a little hinky about all this.

Deciding factor for my PC, Alistair might die, and Anora might become queen as a result. Those things together made her ask Alistair to do the ritual. It wasn't comfortable for, oh, so many reasons, but it was doable.


I nearly always (get Alistair to) do the ritual. I dunno, I think in a way it might be easier for some female characters - I feel that Morrigan is somehow more genuine with them. Not completely genuine, obviously. IAnd as I'm curious, did you tell Alistair the truth about the god baby or just tell him to do it? I nearly always tell him the truth, but last time I didn't and the dialogue was slightly amusing (Alistair asking Morrigan to knock him out first).


Yeah, I always tell him the truth, and I never use persuade, or 'you'd do it if you loved me.' Sometimes we're together as a couple, sometimes we aren't, but I just can't lie to him or leave him in the dark about something with such serious ramifications--and the use of his DNA. He has to make the decision in full knowledge of what's going on.

#46
Oak Tree Leaf

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Why do people keep saying things like alistar hardened? or do i even wana know? xD

#47
Thor Rand Al

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Lel's still willing to be your girl on the side if you marry Alistair or Anora, so I suspect she'd support the dark ritual idae, too.



Only if she's hardened will she remain your mistress

#48
AnniLau

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Oak Tree Leaf wrote...

Why do people keep saying things like alistar hardened? or do i even wana know? xD


You can change his personality ever so slightly if you tell him the right thing after his personal quest. It makes him more inclined to consider what he wants, rather than just being all duty and honor.

#49
RobinMichelleB

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Oak Tree Leaf wrote...

Why do people keep saying things like alistar hardened? or do i even wana know? xD


During Alistair's personal quest, you can "harden" his personality by telling him that everyone is out for themselves. It makes him more amenable to becoming king, and also to you being his mistress if he marries Anora and you are in a love relationship with him.

#50
Thor Rand Al

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Oak Tree Leaf wrote...

Why do people keep saying things like alistar hardened? or do i even wana know? xD




Only way to have Alistair take the throne willingly is have him hardened with his sister's quest.  If you don't harden him n you make him King he's not a happy camper, if your going the throne route.  If you're not going to make him king then it doesn't matter.  But the dialoge when he's romancing you's different, depends on if you slept with him first or you wait for him to do it.