1201 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

I have no idea where to even begin with testing the defense scores after having figured out Garrus. If I suspect that Jacob's defense score is actually higher than Thane's, I'd have to create a scenario in which someone dies under Thane's watch but not under Jacob's or vice versa. One way I thought about doing it was to run a scenario where Thane or Jacob were the only loyals defending the line with everyone else unloyal, then counting how many people died. If the same number of people died, then I'd have to keep tweaking how many people get left behind until I get some kind of variation. But what if Thane and Jacob have the same defense score? Then there will never be any difference. AAAAAUGH!

And since I'm working without a save editor, I think this task actually surpasses the depths to which I will go to get a definitive answer. Why did Garrus have to be the odd one out? Now that means everyone can be the odd one out!

[Ecael]

Decided to spend a half hour today confirming GameInformer's Hold the Line Death List:

Tali Loyal/Kasumi Unloyal at Final Boss, Loyal Mordin at Hold the Line

Mordin/Morinth/Jacob = Jacob dies
Mordin/Samara/Garrus = Garrus dies
Mordin/Samara/Legion = Samara dies
Mordin/Morinth/Legion = Morinth dies
Mordin/Legion/Thane = Legion dies
Mordin/Thane/Zaeed = Thane dies
Mordin/Grunt/Zaeed = Everyone out alive

Hold the Line Death List (GameInformer):
1. Mordin
2. Tali
3. Kasumi
4. Jack
5. Miranda
6. Jacob
7. Garrus
8. Samara/Morinth
9. Legion
10. Thane
11. Zaeed
12. Grunt

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

So. Is Thane a better defener than Garrus?

[Ecael]

Lizardviking wrote...

So. Is Thane a better defener than Garrus?

According to Pacifien, the "Hold the Line Death List" and "Hold the Line Defense Score List" are actually somewhat different.

I haven't figured out a way to test this yet, though.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ecael wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

So. Is Thane a better defener than Garrus?

According to Pacifien, the "Hold the Line Death List" and "Hold the Line Defense Score List" are actually somewhat different.

I haven't figured out a way to test this yet, though.

I have heard as much. But does Garrus got a better "Hold the line defence" score than Thane?

[Pacifien]

Lizardviking wrote...
I have heard as much. But does Garrus got a better "Hold the line defence" score than Thane?

Yes.

[joecool280]

Ecael wrote...

joecool280 wrote...

Hello, having just followed your "Everyone dies except Kasumi and Morinth" playthrough with my Renegade character, I would now like to do a playthrough with my Paragon character where only Garrus, Grunt, Legion and Tali survive, my favorite characters. What would I have to change from the "Everyone dies except Garrus, Legion and Tali" playthrough to make sure Grunt survives as well?

Switch Grunt and Zaeed. Put Zaeed as Second Fire Team Leader (this means you can make him loyal if you want).

Vents - Jacob (dies)
Fire Team Leader - Any
Biotic - Samara (bring Miranda and Mordin, Mordin dies)
Second Fire Team Leader - Zaeed (dies)
Escort - Legion
Final boss squadmates - Grunt and Samara (Samara dies)
Distraction Team - Garrus, Tali, Miranda (Miranda dies)

Edit, nevermind, Miranda survived as well oddly, even though she was unloyal.

Modifié par joecool280, 17 juin 2010 - 01:06 .

[Ecael]

joecool280 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

joecool280 wrote...

Hello, having just followed your "Everyone dies except Kasumi and Morinth" playthrough with my Renegade character, I would now like to do a playthrough with my Paragon character where only Garrus, Grunt, Legion and Tali survive, my favorite characters. What would I have to change from the "Everyone dies except Garrus, Legion and Tali" playthrough to make sure Grunt survives as well?

Switch Grunt and Zaeed. Put Zaeed as Second Fire Team Leader (this means you can make him loyal if you want).

Vents - Jacob (dies)
Fire Team Leader - Any
Biotic - Samara (bring Miranda and Mordin, Mordin dies)
Second Fire Team Leader - Zaeed (dies)
Escort - Legion
Final boss squadmates - Grunt and Samara (Samara dies)
Distraction Team - Garrus, Tali, Miranda (Miranda dies)

Edit, nevermind, Miranda survived as well oddly, even though she was unloyal.

Switch Grunt and Miranda. That should work.

[TheAzureVanguard]

Ecael wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

^ What is Thane's reaction to that? I can't bring myself to do it, so just go ahead and spoil it for me. :-)

Unfortunately, it's the same - the usual handshake with Captain Bailey, except he's thanking him for trying to reduce the prison sentence instead.

Thanks for answering both questions by the way. Really appreciate it.

I don't think I can bring myself to allow his son to go to jail either....

[Malysoun]

Pacifien wrote...

More fun with Suicide Mission scenarios! I know people speculate how many people you need to be loyal and still have 100% survival (including the rescued Normandy crew). Since I have insomnia, I thought I'd play around with this a bit.

This post by Malysoun details what it took without Thane or Kasumi recruited. I decided to see what it would take if you recruited everyone.

Scenario 1 - Get four of the weakest squadmates loyal and one of the strongest defenders.
Loyal: Garrus, Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali
Vents: Tali
1st Leader: Garrus
Escort: Mordin
Biotic Shield: Jack
2nd Leader: Garrus
Final squad: Kasumi and Tali
Result: Miranda died holding the line

Scenario 2 - Get three of the weakest squadmates loyal and two of the strongest defenders.
Loyal: Garrus, Grunt, Jack, Mordin, Tali
Vents: Tali
1st Leader: Garrus
Escort: Mordin
Biotic Shield: Jack
2nd Leader: Garrus
Final squad: Jack and Tali
Result: Kasumi died holding the line.

So I'm speculating that if you have all twelve squadmates doing the suicide mission, you'll need six loyal.

Malysoun's only research implied that if you have eleven squadmates doing the suicide mission, you'll need five loyal. However, this is assuming your eleventh squadmate is Zaeed and not the much weaker defender Kasumi.

If you have ten squadmates doing the suicide mission, you'll need four loyal. But again, this might change if one of those ten is Kasumi.

I have no idea why I'm trying to figure this all out.

Well I am on xbox360 not pc, and all my attempts were made prior to Kasumi's release.
I hadn't gone back to investigate more really after her release.

My only real post-Kasumi attempt was my 4 loyal run I loaded back up prior to some time-killing, which when I added loyal Kasumi ended up with Miranda dying despite now having 5 people loyal.

Whatever the hidden total is, Kasumi's low defense score skews the team average lower than her added value.
Not sure how to describe it besides a classroom full of A students and the new kid scores a D dropping the entire classes average.
It probably would have been better with that save to go recruit Thane, get him loyal than to pick up Kasumi and do her mission which defeats the purpose of the test anyhow.

I'd tend to agree with your assessments. I might play around some more later see what I can find out, but I don't think you can swap many of the people in the 10 recruited 4 loyal playthrough, you need to recruit Mordin for plot so it makes sense to get him loyal and be escort due to frailty, Jack is the weakest defender of the group that can do the Biotic field, you need to recruit Tali for the shield upgrade and I usually bring her/Jack with me to the boss due to their frailty which Kasumi shares (and you don't need two loyal techs), two of the leaders (Miranda/Jacob) join by default. I don't think that situation really works any other way.

Perhaps if you leave Grunt/Legion deactivated which deprives you of a good defender you can get by with less than 10?

[Pacifien]

More fun with science! Trying to determine what the defense score is for various squadmates. Research not going well.

Everyone loyal. Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed gotten out of the way before it was time to Hold the Line.

Taking Legion/Thane to final battle, the two squadmates who are set up to die before Zaeed and Grunt. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

Taking Miranda/Jacob to final battle, the two squadmates who are set up to die after the Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, and Jack. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

Taking Miranda/Thane to final battle, the two squadmates I would have thought would have a lower defensive score than Legion and Jacob. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

Taking Jacob/Legion to the final battle, the two squadmates I would have thought would have a higher defensive score than Miranda and Thane. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

This might require getting Garrus, Grunt, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali, and Zaeed out of the way to see if there's any difference in the rest.

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

More fun with science! Trying to determine what the defense score is for various squadmates. Research not going well.

Everyone loyal. Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed gotten out of the way before it was time to Hold the Line.

Taking Legion/Thane to final battle, the two squadmates who are set up to die before Zaeed and Grunt. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

Taking Miranda/Jacob to final battle, the two squadmates who are set up to die after the Mordin, Tali, Kasumi, and Jack. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

Taking Miranda/Thane to final battle, the two squadmates I would have thought would have a lower defensive score than Legion and Jacob. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

Taking Jacob/Legion to the final battle, the two squadmates I would have thought would have a higher defensive score than Miranda and Thane. Resulted in Mordin and Tali dying.

This might require getting Garrus, Grunt, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali, and Zaeed out of the way to see if there's any difference in the rest.

I wonder... is it possible that the defense scores are the same between two or three squadmates? In that case, there would be tiers instead of a flat ranking of the squad.

Modifié par Ecael, 18 juin 2010 - 01:49 .

[Pacifien]

I would have thought there would be tiers to the defensive scores, as I think Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed actually all have the same score. And I think Mordin, Tali, Kasumi and possibly Jack have the same score. But I can't for the life of me get a situation where Miranda to Thane on the list are giving me different outcomes.

[WashclothRepairMan]

kraidy1117 wrote...

I made a playthrough where only Miranda, Joker and Shepard survived lol.

How did you do this? I am trying to do the same thing with my FemShep and Garrus, but nothing seems to work.

[Pacifien]

Okay, I sent a PM to Dusty Everman begging for clarification on the Hold the Line sequence before my mind snapped trying to create every possible suicide mission scenario in the world. I wonder what is the total variations on the suicide mission... Must find mathematician... Anyway, he told me that there are three tiers to the defensive score. While I haven't tested this completely, I suspect the tiers go along these lines:

First Tier
Garrus / Grunt / Zaeed

Second Tier
Jacob / Legion / Miranda / Samara/Morinth / Thane

Third Tier
Jack / Kasumi / Mordin / Tali

Modifié par Pacifien, 19 juin 2010 - 01:07 .

[Pacifien]

WashclothRepairMan wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
I made a playthrough where only Miranda, Joker and Shepard survived lol.

How did you do this? I am trying to do the same thing with my FemShep and Garrus, but nothing seems to work.

It's really not possible. Even if you had Miranda and Zaeed survive and then post-suicide mission you tried to kill Zaeed on his loyalty mission (which is possible under normal circumstances), the option to kill Zaeed won't show up.

It's possible to have Shepard and Miranda be the only two who survive the boss fight and Miranda ends up being the one to pull Shepard into the ship. But there is one other squadmate who survived holding the line who is offscreen.

Someone trying to get a scenario with Thane as an only survivor wrote one of the funnier posts about the critical mission failure of the attempt.

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Okay, I sent a PM to Dusty Everman begging for clarification on the Hold the Line sequence before my mind snapped trying to create every possible suicide mission scenario in the world. I wonder what is the total variations on the suicide mission... Must find mathematician... Anyway, he told me that there are three tiers to the defensive score. While I haven't tested this completely, I suspect the tiers go along these lines:

First Tier
Garrus / Grunt / Zaeed

Second Tier
Jacob / Legion / Miranda / Samara/Morinth / Thane

Third Tier
Jack / Kasumi / Mordin / Tali

That looks a bit uneven, though. If there are three tiers, shouldn't there be 4 squadmates in each tier?

Modifié par Ecael, 19 juin 2010 - 11:56 .

[Pacifien]

You'd think, but none of the ones I listed in the second tier can do what those on the first tier can.

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

You'd think, but none of the ones I listed in the second tier can do what those on the first tier can.

I'll try to compare Legion's and Grunt's defensive abilities when I get the chance.

[NICKjnp]

Ecael wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Okay, I sent a PM to Dusty Everman begging for clarification on the Hold the Line sequence before my mind snapped trying to create every possible suicide mission scenario in the world. I wonder what is the total variations on the suicide mission... Must find mathematician... Anyway, he told me that there are three tiers to the defensive score. While I haven't tested this completely, I suspect the tiers go along these lines:

First Tier
Garrus / Grunt / Zaeed

Second Tier
Jacob / Legion / Miranda / Samara/Morinth / Thane

Third Tier
Jack / Kasumi / Mordin / Tali

That looks a bit uneven, though. If there are three tiers, shouldn't there be 4 squadmates in each tier?

Also... I think Grunt would get his own tier.  The way I understand it Grunt can survive (unloyal) holding the line if it is only him holding the line by himself.

[Ecael]

NICKjnp wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Okay, I sent a PM to Dusty Everman begging for clarification on the Hold the Line sequence before my mind snapped trying to create every possible suicide mission scenario in the world. I wonder what is the total variations on the suicide mission... Must find mathematician... Anyway, he told me that there are three tiers to the defensive score. While I haven't tested this completely, I suspect the tiers go along these lines:

First Tier
Garrus / Grunt / Zaeed

Second Tier
Jacob / Legion / Miranda / Samara/Morinth / Thane

Third Tier
Jack / Kasumi / Mordin / Tali

That looks a bit uneven, though. If there are three tiers, shouldn't there be 4 squadmates in each tier?

Also... I think Grunt would get his own tier.  The way I understand it Grunt can survive (unloyal) holding the line if it is only him holding the line by himself.

Dusty Everman did say there were only three tiers, though.

Has anyone attempted a final mission run to see if Garrus, Zaeed or Legion can survive by themselves?

[NICKjnp]

The game hints at Grunt being the most tough... and Samara/Legion being tough as well. When you do the hold the line speech it specificaly focuses on Samar (or Legion if you take Samara... or Shepard if you take both) and then on Grunt.

[Pacifien]

Dusty Everman's exact words were "Keep in mind that many strengths in the list are ties. There are only three different strength values, with a +1 if loyal."

Grunt is the very last on the death list. Assuming everyone was unloyal or Grunt was loyal, he will be the last to fall, so that's why he can hold the line himself. Get Grunt out of the way and replace him with Zaeed, you can probably create the same result. But I would need to know how the entire suicide mission played out to set up a situation where Grunt held the line on his own so that I could then modify it with Zaeed.