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[WashclothRepairMan]

Ecael wrote...

Anyway, jlb524 and others have suggested that the seeker swarm death is not random. After lots of testing, it turns out they're right - and Morinth has her own place on the seeker swarm list:

Seeker Swarm Death List (First to Last):
1. Thane
2. Jack
3. Garrus
4. Legion
5. Samara
6. Grunt
7. Jacob
8. Mordin
9. Tali
10. Kasumi
11. Zaeed
12. Morinth
13. Miranda

This is invaluable, thank you.

[Ecael]

Just did a couple of final boss test runs with two loyals in squad and one non-loyal holding the line.

Grunt, Zaeed and Garrus are the only ones capable of holding the line by themselves without loyalty. Legion, Thane and Samara all died.

[WashclothRepairMan]

Any suggestions on getting this ending:



Survivors: Garrus, Morinth, Shepard



Grunt: Never let out of tank

Legion: Handed over to Cerberus



I can't get Zaeed or Kaisume. [sad] I'm playing on Xbox and am on dialup - so I can't even connect to Cerberus Network. Too much of a cheap/lazy bastard to get ME1&2 for PC, although then I could (slowly) get the DLC.

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Okay, I sent a PM to Dusty Everman begging for clarification on the Hold the Line sequence before my mind snapped trying to create every possible suicide mission scenario in the world. I wonder what is the total variations on the suicide mission... Must find mathematician... Anyway, he told me that there are three tiers to the defensive score. While I haven't tested this completely, I suspect the tiers go along these lines:

First Tier
Garrus / Grunt / Zaeed

Second Tier
Jacob / Legion / Miranda / Samara/Morinth / Thane

Third Tier
Jack / Kasumi / Mordin / Tali

Confirmed. These are the results:

Solo Hold the Line Survivors
Grunt
Zaeed
Garrus
Morinth
Legion (loyal only)
Samara (loyal only)
Thane (loyal only)
Jacob (loyal only)
Miranda (loyal only)

The rest died. Therefore, if you include non-loyalties, there are technically 4 tiers (U stands for Unloyal):

• A Tier (Badasses) - Grunt, Zaeed, Garrus
• B Tier - U-Grunt, U-Zaeed, U-Garrus, Legion, Morinth, Samara, Thane, Jacob, Miranda
• C Tier - U-Legion, U-Samara, U-Thane, U-Jacob, U-Miranda, Jack, Kasumi, Tali, Mordin
• D Tier - U-Jack, U-Kasumi, U-Tali, U-Mordin

A gets 4 points, B gets 3 points, C gets 2 points, D gets 1 point.

How the system works after that... I'm not sure. It may be an average, much like a college transcript.

WashclothRepairMan wrote...

Any suggestions on getting this ending:

Survivors: Garrus, Morinth, Shepard

Grunt: Never let out of tank
Legion: Handed over to Cerberus

I can't get Zaeed or Kaisume. [sad] I'm playing on Xbox and am on dialup - so I can't even connect to Cerberus Network. Too much of a cheap/lazy bastard to get ME1&2 for PC, although then I could (slowly) get the DLC.

Give me one second, I'll figure it out. Sorry to hear that you still have dial-up...

Also, isn't there a Steam sale going on right now? You could get both games on the PC for $30 (total) if you wanted.

Modifié par Ecael, 20 juin 2010 - 02:14 .

[Ecael]

WashclothRepairMan wrote...

Done. The first one is if you fully recruit Grunt and Legion, the second one is if you leave them inactive.

The spendthrift no-DLC playthrough! (Sorry, couldn't think of another name)



All 10 non-DLC loyalty missions completed. Normal recruitment mission order.

-----------------
Final Squadmates: Garrus and Morinth
-----------------

Loyals: Jack, Jacob, Grunt, Garrus, Mordin, Thane, Legion, Morinth
Non-loyals: Miranda, Tali
Normandy Upgrades: None
Chakwas & Crew: DEAD

Before the Omega-4 Relay
-Side with Jack during the Miranda/Jack fight
-Side with Legion during the Tali/Legion fight (or just mess up Tali's loyalty mission)
-Side with Morinth during the Samara/Morinth standoff (must pass all three persuasion checks)
-Bring Tali (but not Legion) to fight the Oculus, so Legion dies

Assignments
Vents - Jacob (dies)
Fire Team Leader - Any
Biotic - Miranda (bring Morinth and Grunt, Grunt dies)
Second Fire Team Leader - Mordin (dies)
Final boss squadmates - Miranda and Tali (both die)
Distraction Team - Garrus and Morinth

Deaths, before landing
Jack - No Armor Upgrade, laser'd
Legion - No Shield Upgrade, incinerated
Thane - No Weapon upgrade, impaled

Deaths, after landing
Jacob - Died by rocket to face
Grunt - Died by seeker swarm
Mordin - Died while closing second door
Miranda - Died at final boss
Tali - Died at final boss

-----------------
Final Squadmates: Garrus and Morinth
-----------------

Non-DLC, non-Grunt/Legion

All 10 non-DLC loyalty missions completed. Grunt and Legion left alone.

-----------------
Final Squadmates: Garrus and Morinth
-----------------

Loyals: Jack, Jacob, Garrus, Mordin, Thane, Morinth
Non-loyals: Miranda, Tali
Normandy Upgrades: Shield Upgrade
Chakwas & Crew: DEAD

Before the Omega-4 Relay
-Side with Jack during the Miranda/Jack fight
-Mess up Tali's loyalty by handing over the evidence
-Side with Morinth during the Samara/Morinth standoff (must pass all three persuasion checks)

Assignments
Vents - Jacob (dies)
Fire Team Leader - Any
Biotic - Miranda (bring Mordin and Tali, Mordin dies)
Second Fire Team Leader - Garrus
Final boss squadmates - Miranda and Tali (both die)
Distraction Team - Garrus and Morinth

Deaths, before landing
Jack - No Armor Upgrade, laser'd
Thane - No Weapon upgrade, impaled

Deaths, after landing
Jacob - Died by rocket to face
Mordin - Died by seeker swarm
Miranda - Died at final boss
Tali - Died at final boss

-----------------
Final Squadmates: Garrus and Morinth
-----------------

Modifié par Ecael, 20 juin 2010 - 02:27 .

[Pacifien]

Ecael wrote...
*snip*

• A Tier (Badasses) - Grunt, Zaeed, Garrus
• B Tier - U-Grunt, U-Zaeed, U-Garrus, Legion, Morinth, Samara, Thane, Jacob, Miranda
• C Tier - U-Legion, U-Samara, U-Thane, U-Jacob, U-Miranda, Jack, Kasumi, Tali, Mordin
• D Tier - U-Jack, U-Kasumi, U-Tali, U-Mordin

A gets 4 points, B gets 3 points, C gets 2 points, D gets 1 point.

How the system works after that... I'm not sure. It may be an average, much like a college transcript.

Have thrown kink into system with latest testing. Dusty Everman said you get +1 to your defense score if you're loyal. So I wondered if getting Thane loyal meant his defense score was the same as an unloyal Garrus.

Going back to a previous test...
Scenario 1
Defenders: loyals Kasumi, Mordin and Tali with unloyals Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed
Result: No one died.

Scenario 2
Defenders: loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali with unloyals Thane, Grunt, and Zaeed
Result: Thane died.

New test...
Scenario 3
Defenders: loyals Kasumi, Mordin, Tali, and Thane with unloyals Grunt and Zaeed
Result: Zaeed died!

So even with the +1 Thane gets for being loyal, he still isn't a match for an unloyal Garrus.

Modifié par Pacifien, 20 juin 2010 - 02:35 .

[Ecael]

What if the average hold the line grade is compared to a cut-off point for each non-loyal and loyal squadmate death? That further complicates things, but the tiers would still hold true.

[NICKjnp]

So Grunt, Zaeed and Garrus can all hold the line by themselves when they are unloyal? I don't think you need to list Morinth as unloyal considering she automaticaly becomes loyal when you recruit her.

Modifié par NICKjnp, 20 juin 2010 - 02:58 .

[WashclothRepairMan]

Beautiful, thank you. Now I get to start over from before getting the IFF since the first thing I did after that was get the Thanix cannon (it seemed like a good idea at the time, I had already reloaded several times trying to get this outcome) and Tali's mission and I did the Renegade persuasion to clear her name and keep her fathers honor. D'oh!



Unrelated but one time I had an unloyal Legion (I think he was unloyal anyway, it was awhile ago so I won't swear to it) successfully lead Chakwas & Kelly back.

[Pacifien]

Ecael wrote...
What if the average hold the line grade is compared to a cut-off point for each non-loyal and loyal squadmate death? That further complicates things, but the tiers would still hold true.

I'm not sure I follow. Examples?

[Pacifien]

WashclothRepairMan wrote...
Unrelated but one time I had an unloyal Legion (I think he was unloyal anyway, it was awhile ago so I won't swear to it) successfully lead Chakwas & Kelly back.

Any escort will successfully lead the crew back to the Normandy, but if the escort is unloyal, they'll risk their own life to get the job done and die.

[Ecael]

WashclothRepairMan wrote...

Beautiful, thank you. Now I get to start over from before getting the IFF since the first thing I did after that was get the Thanix cannon (it seemed like a good idea at the time, I had already reloaded several times trying to get this outcome) and Tali's mission and I did the Renegade persuasion to clear her name and keep her fathers honor. D'oh!

Unrelated but one time I had an unloyal Legion (I think he was unloyal anyway, it was awhile ago so I won't swear to it) successfully lead Chakwas & Kelly back.

Sometimes Renegade doesn't really feel renegade...

I missed out on the chance to kill Dr. Mordin's assistant along with the batarians because of the Renegade persuade option.

[Pacifien]

Turns out Dr. Mordin's assistant is the absolute key to fighting the Reapers and you've managed to not kill him. Way to go, Ecael.

[numotsbane]

I there any way to just have Zaeed and Grunt left?

I don't have any upgrades, and tali, samara and miranda are unloyal.

everyone else is loyal, except legion, who i sent to cerberus...

[WashclothRepairMan]

IIRC he was unloyal and survived, but I could be remembering incorrectly.

[Pacifien]

numotsbane wrote...
I there any way to just have Zaeed and Grunt left?
I don't have any upgrades, and tali, samara and miranda are unloyal.
everyone else is loyal, except legion, who i sent to cerberus...

On approach...
No armor upgrade - Jack dies
No shield upgrade - Kasumi dies; if you don't have Kasumi, Tali will die
No weapon upgrade - Thane dies

Tech specialist - Garrus
1st Fire Team Leader - anyone except Jacob if Jacob is loyal
     Result: Garrus dies
Escort - Samara if you want the crew to live; no one if you want the crew to die
     Result: Samara dies
Biotic Shield - Miranda, take Jacob and Zaeed
     Result: Jacob dies
2nd Fire Team Leader - Mordin (use Samara if you didn't use her as escort)
     Result: Mordin or Samara will die
Hold the Line: Mordin (if you didn't use him as a leader), Tali (if she didn't die on the shield upgrade), Grunt
     Result: Mordin and Tali die
Final Squad: Miranda and Zaeed
     Result: Miranda dies

Survivors: Grunt and Zaeed

If Grunt died holding the line, switch him out with Miranda.

Modifié par Pacifien, 20 juin 2010 - 04:17 .

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Ecael wrote...
What if the average hold the line grade is compared to a cut-off point for each non-loyal and loyal squadmate death? That further complicates things, but the tiers would still hold true.

I'm not sure I follow. Examples?

Actually, I completely lost my train of thought on that one. Never mind. Moving forward...



What if each tier added

(EDIT: Tier failed)

I did a run with U-Grunt, U-Garrus, U-Zaeed and U-Mordin holding the line - Mordin survived
U-Grunt, U-Garrus, U-Zaeed, Jack, U-Mordin, U-Thane - Mordin died

I've also had U-Zaeed and U-Samara survive holding the line.

Modifié par Ecael, 20 juin 2010 - 09:00 .

[Pacifien]

Ah, that does make sense. It also probably explains why sometimes I have better success with my scenarios when I took Jack out of the equation. With Jack, the average was 1.85. Without Jack, it was 2. Hmm... maybe the magic number is 2.

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Ah, that does make sense. It also probably explains why sometimes I have better success with my scenarios when I took Jack out of the equation. With Jack, the average was 1.85. Without Jack, it was 2. Hmm... maybe the magic number is 2.

Ack, guess it didn't work after all...

L-Legion/L-Thane (2.5) - Survive
L-Legion/U-Thane (2.0) - Thane dies
L-Legion/L-Thane/U-Miranda (2.1) - Miranda dies
L-Legion/L-Thane/L-Jacob/U-Miranda (2.5) - Miranda dies

[Pacifien]

Is it possible for everyone (all twelve squadmates plus crew) to survive with only six loyal during the suicide mission?

You tell me. If you have access to gibbed's save editor, try this scenario:

Possible Winning Scenario
Loyal: Garrus, Grunt, Zaeed, Jack, Mordin, Tali
Result: Everyone lives?

I'll tell you what doesn't work:

Scenario 1
Loyal: Garrus, Thane, Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali
     - This is 1 top tier defender, 1 second tier defender, and all the third tier defenders
Result: Miranda died holding the line

Scenario 2
Loyal: Garrus, Grunt, Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali
     - This is 2 top tier defenders and all the third tier defenders
Result: Miranda died holding the line

Scenario 3
Loyal: Garrus, Grunt, Thane, Jack, Mordin, Tali
     - This is 2 top tier defenders, 1 second tier defender, and 3 third tier defenders
Result: Kasumi died holding the line

[Dean_the_Young]

So, now that Overlord is out, how does that factor into your 'worst playthrough'?

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Is it possible for everyone (all twelve squadmates plus crew) to survive with only six loyal during the suicide mission?

You tell me. If you have access to gibbed's save editor, try this scenario:

Possible Winning Scenario
Loyal: Garrus, Grunt, Zaeed, Jack, Mordin, Tali
Result: Everyone lives?

I'll tell you what doesn't work:

Scenario 1
Loyal: Garrus, Thane, Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali
     - This is 1 top tier defender, 1 second tier defender, and all the third tier defenders
Result: Miranda died holding the line

Scenario 2
Loyal: Garrus, Grunt, Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali
     - This is 2 top tier defenders and all the third tier defenders
Result: Miranda died holding the line

Scenario 3
Loyal: Garrus, Grunt, Thane, Jack, Mordin, Tali
     - This is 2 top tier defenders, 1 second tier defender, and 3 third tier defenders
Result: Kasumi died holding the line

Kasumi died.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, now that Overlord is out, how does that factor into your 'worst playthrough'?

I'm definitely going with the Renegade option for this Shepard.

Modifié par Ecael, 20 juin 2010 - 05:05 .

[Pacifien]

Okay, then I'm going to say you need seven loyal squadmates for everyone to survive the suicide mission.

ETA: Unless you're not sending someone back with the crew. Maybe it works then.

ETAA: Except in my experience, the more people you leave to hold the line, the harder it is to meet that mystical defense score and someone's going to die.

Modifié par Pacifien, 20 juin 2010 - 05:46 .

[Ecael]

Here's my final try at making tiers - however, we'll have to assume that Jack, Tali, Mordin and Kasumi add nothing (or next to nothing) regardless of loyalty:

• A Tier (4.0): Grunt, Zaeed, Garrus
  
• B Tier (3.0): U-Grunt, U-Zaeed, U-Garrus
  
• C Tier (2.0): Legion, Morinth, Samara, Thane, Jacob, Miranda
  
• D Tier (1.0): U-Legion, U-Samara, U-Thane, U-Jacob, U-Miranda, Jack, Kasumi, Tali, Mordin
  
• F Tier (0.0): U-Jack, U-Kasumi, U-Tali, U-Mordin

=2.0 average © is required for all non-loyals to survive
+1.0 average (D+) is required for all loyals to survive

*Each time someone dies, the game averages the numbers again and kills another one off if the number is too low.

In other words, if you have the whole squad with you and there's at least 1 non-loyal holding the line, you need a combined 18 points in order for everyone to survive.

Modifié par Ecael, 21 juin 2010 - 12:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ecael wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, now that Overlord is out, how does that factor into your 'worst playthrough'?

I'm definitely going with the Renegade option for this Shepard.

Is this in general, or because you blew up the Heretics and saved the true Geth?

When I do my own 'worst game' challenge, I intend to sell Legion. At which point a defense against the Geth would be good, and so I'd do paragon to lessen the chances of a successful defense.

But, seeing as you do have the good geth, letting Cerberus keep the boy would certainly put a wedge between Geth and organics.