248 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeremy Winston]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...
Uh, okay, so she should save the alien, under the reasoning that if she doesn't, she'll be considered racist? That sort of "politicians" thinking is not how you make a judgment call. I'd save the human too, on instinct, not considering social repercussions. Would you save the alien, just so you could not be racist?

OH, I got it! She lets them both die, then nobody is considered racist.

She can save whoever, but she shouldn't save the human thinking "This one looks like me!".

If I was in such as situation between two humans I'm not going to consciously decide to save the black over the white. This isn't about being PC, it is about being non-discriminatory by race, in which you claim Ashley is merely being "pragmatic" if she decides to save a human over an alien because she is human.

Nobody is as neutral as you seem to think they need to be.

You save the familiar, you let the unfamiliar go.  If I can save one child out of two, and one happens to be my child, am I prejudiced?  Of course I am.  I have distinct reasons why I want to save my child over another.  That doesn't mean I won't kill myself trying to save the other, if possible.

Same thing with human/alien.  The fact that she would automatically save the human is not because she thinks humans are better, but they she has more of a responsibility toward humans because she is one.

[BattleVisor]

I still think people are way too hard on ashley being slightly prejudiced.

Humanity had only been in contact with aliens for less than 30 years

Modifié par BattleVisor, 12 février 2010 - 10:21 .

[77boy84]

BattleVisor wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...

The BS Police wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...

Ashley haters are being so cynical, she really isnt a Xenophobe.

Really? I must have had my earplugs on when she said she wasn't a fan of aliens then.

Exactly, hardly an extreme view is it.

The illusive man, 'With this we will achieve human dominance in the galaxy'

This is extreme xenophobia

Xenophobia is NOT pride in your race, or wanting your race to be the top.

you are wrong.

The two arent mutually exclusive and closely related.

Yes, but TIM doesn't say "We need to be on top because aliens suck"

He's more imperialistic than xenophobic.

It's like saying having pride in your culture means you're racist. Or wanting your country to be the top dog means you think all other races suck.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Jeremy Winston wrote...
Nobody is as neutral as you seem to think they need to be.

You save the familiar, you let the unfamiliar go.  If I can save one child out of two, and one happens to be my child, am I prejudiced?  Of course I am.  I have distinct reasons why I want to save my child over another.  That doesn't mean I won't kill myself trying to save the other, if possible.

Same thing with human/alien.  The fact that she would automatically save the human is not because she thinks humans are better, but they she has more of a responsibility toward humans because she is one.

We're talking about an ideal situation between strangers in which the only knowable difference to the savior is race and you're using the argument of "a family member over a stranger"?

That's an entirely different argument. 

It is illogical to adopt the policy "humans over alien" in such a situation, and thus racist. It isn't the same as say saving a family member or your child because of your love. There are humans that are monsters and the universe is better off without them, at the same time there are Turians/Krogan/Salarians/Vorcha that the universe are better off. I feel no responsibility towards humans in this sense as I do to any other race, especially when the issue is a matter of individuals rather then an entire species vs. another.

If I was in some situation where I had to wipe out either all humans or all turians, yes I would choose Turians. that is the situation I believe you meant to use. But between individuals when both are strangers, my decision to save one over another is more than likely going to be based on (Who looks lighter or easier for me to save without doing harm to myself?).

To be fair, the entire hypothetical "If two people were on the side of a cliff and you can only save one" has always been a horrible argument, even when used only among humans. It's comparing apples to oranges.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 12 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[IndomitusRex]

banshee768 wrote...

Valmy wrote...

What I find far more puzzling is that Kaidan and Jacob are so strongly disliked. I mean seriously despised, they are always right at the bottom of any opinion poll. It makes me wonder if good looking guys threaten the male gamers. I didn't think guys were like that so I find it a bit surprising.

I think it has more to do with the fact that if you play a male character, neither Kaidan or Jacob has much to offer. Jacob becomes a 'buddy' with nothing interesting to say at all, no opinions, nothing to add. That his skills are shared with characters with for more, well, character, doesn't help his case.
Kaidan is.. Well, I don't know. From the very first mission he comes across as a whiner, not a soldier. One that wears his feelings outside his suit. While that could be excused if he was a doctor, scientist or counsoler, it doesn't really fit a soldier. And he first time I spoke to him after the first mission, Shepard approached him like there was several novels of unspoken love and passion between them, but neither have had the courage to act on it. First it made me laugh and then it started to get annoying.

Kaidan was doomed from the start, I fear, to be generally disliked in ME1 because he shares a voice actor with Carth Onasi, who was probably the whiniest and preachiest character I've ever been saddled with in an RPG.  Kaidan himself isn't so bad, though his appearance in ME2 didn't do anything to endear him to me.

As others have said, Ashely was off-putting not because she was a strong female character, but because she was a transparent and unrepentant xenophobe.

Jack is a much better character, in my opinion, because she was designed to be off-putting, at least on certain levels.  The tattos and shaved head are both very obvious signs that this broad would probably just as soon knife you as become your girlfriend.  She's certainly more interesting than Ashley, as in addition to the stories she tells you, you find out through other squadmates that she's had all kinds of adventures I guess you could call them.  She once tried to hide in the Quarians' Migrant Fleet, and Zaeed has a story to tell about her as well.

Yeah, she's a bit over the top, but not in a completely unbelievable manner.  She's a drama queen.  I think as soon as people stop being shocked and appaled by her antics she'll realize that those antics are a waste of her time, and she'll become a more likeable character.

[Markinator_123]

BattleVisor wrote...

Valmy wrote...

poisonoustea wrote...

Miranda is way more aggressive than Jack imo.
Jack acts out of a defense mechanism, Miranda is just plain selfish.

Ironic that somebody who devotes her entire life to an organization and sacrifices her own life for the safety and happiness of her sister would be seen as selfish.  What exactly does she ever do if it is not for Cerberus or her sister?

She is a bit selfish, especially on her loyalty mission, she never actually considers what her sister wants.

She seemed more unsure.

[Chuvvy]

I hated Ashley because she was a space republican,I'd be a space liberal.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...
Uh, okay, so she should save the alien, under the reasoning that if she doesn't, she'll be considered racist? That sort of "politicians" thinking is not how you make a judgment call. I'd save the human too, on instinct, not considering social repercussions. Would you save the alien, just so you could not be racist?

OH, I got it! She lets them both die, then nobody is considered racist.

She can save whoever, but she shouldn't save the human thinking "This one looks like me!".

If I was in such as situation between two humans I'm not going to consciously decide to save the black over the white. This isn't about being PC, it is about being non-discriminatory by race, in which you claim Ashley is merely being "pragmatic" if she decides to save a human over an alien because she is human.

I'm claiming it would be instintive. Any species, sapient or not, would save someone who can be qualified as kin by any sense of the word. By nature as a species, any species, would protect those of it's kind, even subconciously.
The example put forth would not qualify anyone as being racist.

Would your Shepard save the alien? Would Jacob save the alien? Would Miranda? Kaiden? Ashley? I don't think there is a human alive who would save the complete stranger alien over the complete stranger human. A turian would save a turian over a human, same for Asari, Quarian, onward.  

[Jeremy Winston]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...
Nobody is as neutral as you seem to think they need to be.

You save the familiar, you let the unfamiliar go.  If I can save one child out of two, and one happens to be my child, am I prejudiced?  Of course I am.  I have distinct reasons why I want to save my child over another.  That doesn't mean I won't kill myself trying to save the other, if possible.

Same thing with human/alien.  The fact that she would automatically save the human is not because she thinks humans are better, but they she has more of a responsibility toward humans because she is one.

We're talking about an ideal situation between strangers in which the only knowable difference to the savior is race and you're using the argument of "a family member over a stranger"?

That's an entirely different argument. 

It is illogical to adopt the policy "humans over alien" in such a situation, and thus racist. It isn't the same as say saving a family member or your child because of your love. There are humans that are monsters and the universe is better off without them, at the same time there are Turians/Krogan/Salarians/Vorcha that the universe are better off. I feel no responsibility towards humans in this sense as I do to any other race, especially when the issue is a matter of individuals rather then an entire species vs. another.

If I was in some situation where I had to wipe out either all humans or all turians, yes I would choose Turians. that is the situation I believe you meant to use. But between individuals when both are strangers, my decision to save one over another is more than likely going to be based on (Who looks lighter or easier for me to save without doing harm to myself?).

Nonsense and other stuff.  We all have things that make one thing a priority over another.

When it comes to people, the normal choice is family, tribe, nation, planet, race or something similar.  It doesn't mean anything against the other guy.  And racism is thinking your race is better and the other worse.  Picking one over the other for reasons OTHER than those are not racist.

[Valmy]

BattleVisor wrote...
She is a bit selfish, especially on her loyalty mission, she never actually considers what her sister wants.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  What are you referring to specifically?  Are you implying her sister wanted to be a tool of their insane father?

[CandidCarnage]

The BS Police wrote...

It's Ashley's Xenophobic/Racist attitude I hated.

I rather liked it. There again, I'm one of those folk who accepts a chequered response to "different" people (including aliens) as absolutely intrinsic to a human being- I don't believe it can be socialised out, and I don't believe you're better off if you somehow have ground it out. It's not just a primitive relic of our basest psyche; being cautious of people who are not of *your* tribe is still a behaviour with survival value *today*. (Note: I'm not necessarily talking about race; your tribe refers to a much smaller collection of people than that.)

To get back on topic... I loved both characters, and I acknowledge that there's a lot of negativity aimed at both characters. People's primary beef with Ash appears to be as above. The problems with Jack are numerous. I adore her character as it is *minus* the Love Interest bit, which I believe spoils her slightly. Other people seem to dislike the sheer scale of her violence, which is what I find most attractive.

Her life has taught her a few things that are fundamentally true in life today, but that are generally thought to be distasteful and incorrect to teach... Basically, that violence will protect you from others and solve your problems; it will especially solve your problems with those who are themselves violent. This is absolutely right. Love it.

Modifié par CandidCarnage, 12 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[Valmy]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Well the point is to use the word that is more emotionally disturbing to shame people. Using a less powerful word would take away from it, unless being called a xenophobe stirs the exact same feelings.

But it seems "racist" is the term referred, as stated by a certain Turian "You humans are all racist!".

That is true.  I let me personal feelings interfere there.  Sorry.

[BattleVisor]

Valmy wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...
She is a bit selfish, especially on her loyalty mission, she never actually considers what her sister wants.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  What are you referring to specifically?  Are you implying her sister wanted to be a tool of their insane father?

What evidence was there to say her father was insane at all, we never heard his side of the story

[Valmy]

Jeremy Winston wrote...
Nobody is as neutral as you seem to think they need to be.

You save the familiar, you let the unfamiliar go.  If I can save one child out of two, and one happens to be my child, am I prejudiced?  Of course I am.  I have distinct reasons why I want to save my child over another.  That doesn't mean I won't kill myself trying to save the other, if possible.

Same thing with human/alien.  The fact that she would automatically save the human is not because she thinks humans are better, but they she has more of a responsibility toward humans because she is one.

Again Ash was saying that the Turians could not be depended upon to save colonies like Eden Prime and the Alliance should go it alone because the Council would sacrifice humanity like a human would sacrifice a dog to save themselves.  She was not saying she would toss all Turians to bears.

You people are taking what she said completely out of context.

Modifié par Valmy, 12 février 2010 - 10:32 .

[Kolaris8472]

When does such a situation ever come up? Ever? If you're sending a couple of squadmates off to their deaths, there are probably more than a dozen concerns or qualification you'd be considering in your head before whether one is Human or the other Turian.



The fact that for Ashley it appears to be a concern well above whether you can trust them, whether they're an asset, whether they're a "better person" - its very revealing about her character.



I like Jack though.

[Valmy]

BattleVisor wrote...
What evidence was there to say her father was insane at all, we never heard his side of the story

The fact he would hire a team of murderous group of unscrupulous mercenaries like the Eclipse to kidnap a perfectly happy teenage girl?   You know, the group that requires each of its members to commit a murder before they are allowed to join up? 

Even if you presume that everything Miranda already said was complete fabrications.

Modifié par Valmy, 12 février 2010 - 10:32 .

[Pauravi]

I think people disliked Ashley more for the xenophobic attitude than being a tough girl. That certainly was true for me, although the typical marine jingoist "the Alliance right or wrong" attitude didn't really warm me up to her, either. She seems like a very typical girl from a very typical military family. I don't dislike her, I just liked Liara better.



Also, I really like Jack's character. I thought I would hate her, but she is really just a hard salty coating with a sweet nougat-y center

[Valmy]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

When does such a situation ever come up? Ever? If you're sending a couple of squadmates off to their deaths, there are probably more than a dozen concerns or qualification you'd be considering in your head before whether one is Human or the other Turian.

The fact that for Ashley it appears to be a concern well above whether you can trust them, whether they're an asset, whether they're a "better person" - its very revealing about her character.

*bangs head against the wall*

The fact is, she never said that.  She said the aliens would sacrifice the humans and they should not be trusted.

[Markinator_123]

Pauravi wrote...

I think people disliked Ashley more for the xenophobic attitude than being a tough girl. That certainly was true for me, although the typical marine jingoist "the Alliance right or wrong" attitude didn't really warm me up to her, either. She seems like a very typical girl from a very typical military family. I don't dislike her, I just liked Liara better.

Also, I really like Jack's character. I thought I would hate her, but she is really just a hard salty coating with a sweet nougat-y center

You're right! Many people did seem to dislike Ashley because of her xenophobic attitude as that is currently the case in this topic. I really did not expect this topic to be completely about Ashley's xenophobia or lack thereof.

[Valmy]

Markinator_123 wrote...
You're right! Many people did seem to dislike Ashley because of her xenophobic attitude as that is currently the case in this topic. I really did not expect this topic to be completely about Ashley's xenophobia or lack thereof.

Hehe it has always been a hot topic.

Modifié par Valmy, 12 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[DuffyMJ]

Ashley was great and it makes a great deal more sense to be suspicious of aliens than haphazardly-trusting of aliens. Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

Ash says some insensitive things, but her actions speak loudly.  If she dies on Virmire, she sacrificed herself for all sentient life, not just humanity.  And if she dies with the nuke, she died for Kaiden and a whole bunch of Salarians.

And I mean, you can paragon her and make her see past her prejudices.  I'd rather be friends with someone who's racist but open to change than someone who is militantly anti-racist and permenantly entrenched in their elitism.

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 12 février 2010 - 10:46 .

[Collider]

It has nothing to do with either being tough. "Tough" doesn't mean you have to be prejudiced against aliens, tough doesn't mean you have to join cults and gangs.

[Jeremy Winston]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ashley was great and it makes a great deal more sense to be suspicious of aliens than haphazardly-trusting of aliens. Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

He can manage to be a paragon because you, the player, force him to be.  As you can see from the canon ME2 initial condition, Shepard is no paragon.

Upbringing and environment is almost everything.  You learn from experiences, and if you have no experiences that allow you to decide that paragon-type choices are good, then why would you go that way?  Do you feel that some sort of morality is built into the human psyche?

[Pauravi]

Valmy wrote...

The fact is, she never said that.  She said the aliens would sacrifice the humans and they should not be trusted.

It isn't just that, though.  She makes quite a few random comments, like, "I can't tell the aliens from the animals", and other such insensitive things.  In ME2 she says straight up that she isn't a fan of aliens.  I'm not saying that she is genocidal or even outwardly hostile to aliens, but she does have a humans-first attitude instead of simply treating each of them as an individual person.  This seems undeniable to me.

Modifié par Pauravi, 12 février 2010 - 10:49 .