248 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmy]

poisonoustea wrote...

Miranda dedicated her life to Cerberus 'cause she felt in debt with the organization. Even what she does in favor of others is still centered around her and only her.

I guess if you start ripping apart people's motivations like that everybody is selfish.  I get paid to go to work.  I guess I am completely selfish for not working for free.  I feel good for doing charity work, I guess I am completely selfish for not being miserable and doing it anyway.

[Jeremy Winston]

Pauravi wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...
You're right! Many people did seem to dislike Ashley because of her xenophobic attitude as that is currently the case in this topic. I really did not expect this topic to be completely about Ashley's xenophobia or lack thereof.

Hehe it has always been a hot topic.

It isn't just that, though.  She makes quite a few random comments, like, "I can't tell the aliens from the animals", and other such insensitive things.  In ME2 she says straight up that she isn't a fan of aliens.  I'm not saying that she is genocidal or even outwardly hostile to aliens, but she does have a humans-first attitude instead of simply treating each of them as an individual person.  This seems undeniable to me.

Then you'd think she'd be pro-Cerberus or that Terra group.  Yet she isn't.  Deeper character?  Or bad writing?

[DuffyMJ]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ashley was great and it makes a great deal more sense to be suspicious of aliens than haphazardly-trusting of aliens. Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

He can manage to be a paragon because you, the player, force him to be.  As you can see from the canon ME2 initial condition, Shepard is no paragon.

Upbringing and environment is almost everything.  You learn from experiences, and if you have no experiences that allow you to decide that paragon-type choices are good, then why would you go that way?  Do you feel that some sort of morality is built into the human psyche?

There is no canon Mass Effect play-through.  That's a mute point. 

Upbringing and environment are only "almost everything" from the perspective of university educated social science-indoctrinated post-1960s western post-modernists.

And yes, certain mores are built into the human psyche, most notably fairness which can be observed as a value in human babies even before the acculturation process begins.

[Mkrgross]

I totally agree with the OP. I personelly dislike Ashley, but I love Jack. And because there is so much Love and Hatred for these 2 characters, just shows how well Bioware did in creating them. Kudos.

[Jeremy Winston]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ashley was great and it makes a great deal more sense to be suspicious of aliens than haphazardly-trusting of aliens. Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

He can manage to be a paragon because you, the player, force him to be.  As you can see from the canon ME2 initial condition, Shepard is no paragon.

Upbringing and environment is almost everything.  You learn from experiences, and if you have no experiences that allow you to decide that paragon-type choices are good, then why would you go that way?  Do you feel that some sort of morality is built into the human psyche?

There is no canon Mass Effect play-through.  That's a mute point. 

Upbringing and environment are only "almost everything" from the perspective of university educated social science-indoctrinated post-1960s western post-modernists.

And yes, certain mores are built into the human psyche, most notably fairness which can be observed as a value in human babies even before the acculturation process begins.

There is a canon ME play-through. It's what you get when you don't import ME1.  It's how BioWare sees the natural development of the character.

I am not well versed in university social sciences.  What else do you think comes into play?  As for the inherent fairness, it's not because of "being fair." But in cooperation.  What would an infant do when, while being 'fair' was always stepped on everytime it was fair?  It would learn, pretty damn quickly, that 'fair' means that it suffers.

[Jarcander]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Likewise as a minor character Gianna Parasini was pretty cool, and I thinks he fit the tough girl bill pretty well.

I would've rather romanced her than Jack or Ash. Gianna personality is actually surpringly much like generic Shephard's. Both are on the move, do what it takes to archive their goals, both like to nail Asari... aaanyway, I hope she returns in ME3.

[Thompson family]

At least's Jack's not a bigot. She hates everybody.

[Valmy]

Pauravi wrote...
It isn't just that, though.  She makes quite a few random comments, like, "I can't tell the aliens from the animals", and other such insensitive things.  In ME2 she says straight up that she isn't a fan of aliens.  I'm not saying that she is genocidal or even outwardly hostile to aliens, but she does have a humans-first attitude instead of simply treating each of them as an individual person.  This seems undeniable to me.

She is hardly alone in having some unfortunate opinons.  Alot of the other companions and organizations in the game have SPECIFICALLY hostile and violent attitudes towards other species.  Yet it is fine for them to dream about butchering Turians, because all Krogans are violent dontchaknow, but Ash is despised.  I just find it a bit of an over-reaction.  She never even does anything really to act out those feelings.

But mainly I just wanted to clear the air about the sacrificing the dog thing.  People were blatantly misrepresenting that scene for some reason, it was hardly unclear in the context of the conversation.

[Alexandus]

Miranda is one of the deadliest characters in the game. The first mission you see her, she kills someone in cold blood without missing a beat. Is anyone here asserting that she's not a "tough girl", as you all are putting it?



I disliked Jack for her flip-flop personality, her general craziness, and the fact that next to miranda she looked like a 12 year old.



In ME1, I chose Ashley, I don't really see much similarity between her and Jack other than they both can kill rather well.

[Valmy]

poisonoustea wrote...
But I repeat, that's my point of view on it - remember that you and I probably experienced a different playthrough.

Hey you are entitled to your opinion.  I was just giving you my thoughts on what you had said.

[Frotality]

well for me its because the tend to represent krogan men more the human females. jack and ashley have a whole lotta kick-assery, but very little sense or intelligence to complement it. if i found a woman IRL who could kick my ass in a blind rage like ash or jack, i would have her checked into an asylum. if i found a woman who could simalarly kick my ass, but for some logical reason that i could undertand, i would marry her. ashley and jack are 'irrationally' blunt and violent, and thats the turn off.

EDIT: and thinking about it that probably makes miranda my deam girl:P. smart and deadly FTW

Modifié par Frotality, 12 février 2010 - 10:58 .

[Jarcander]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Then you'd think she'd (Ash) be pro-Cerberus or that Terra group.  Yet she isn't.  Deeper character?  Or bad writing?

Nah, I don't think that's it. She is just single-minded and stubborn in her views. Alliance really needs to screw her on a personal level to loose her loyalty.

[DuffyMJ]

Pauravi wrote...

Valmy wrote...

The fact is, she never said that.  She said the aliens would sacrifice the humans and they should not be trusted.

It isn't just that, though.  She makes quite a few random comments, like, "I can't tell the aliens from the animals", and other such insensitive things.  In ME2 she says straight up that she isn't a fan of aliens.  I'm not saying that she is genocidal or even outwardly hostile to aliens, but she does have a humans-first attitude instead of simply treating each of them as an individual person.  This seems undeniable to me.

Abraham Lincoln said "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people"

and then went on to prosecute a war that (legally, at least) freed over 9 million men women and children in the U.S.

People tend not to be perfect enlightened baby lambs who constantly say the perfect thing at the perfect time.  By sacrificing herself to destroy the Virmire genophage cure/indoctrination lab or by joining the mutiny of the Normandy and going on the suicide mission to Ilos/battle of the Citadel, Ashely's actions speak much louder than some ridiculous off-hand remark she made on her very first visit to a non-human place with lots of aliens (normally on crap cushy assignments like eden prime).

[Wintermist]

I'm not really into the "tough" chic, no. But a lot of people mistake tough with competent. I love chics who are secure in themselves, and competent in what they do, as well as have the intellect to back it up.

[Jeremy Winston]

Jarcander wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Then you'd think she'd (Ash) be pro-Cerberus or that Terra group.  Yet she isn't.  Deeper character?  Or bad writing?

Nah, I don't think that's it. She is just single-minded and stubborn in her views. Alliance really needs to screw her on a personal level to loose her loyalty.

Psh.. Alliance has been screwing her family over for two generations.

[Valmy]

Mkrgross wrote...
And because there is so much Love and Hatred for these 2 characters, just shows how well Bioware did in creating them. Kudos.

Absolutely!

[Terraneaux]

I think Ashley's xenophobia was part of what made her an interesting character - otherwise she would have been a bit too... I dunno, like she's this strong woman who's making a military career out of her life, and she doesn't need a man, etc.



I don't think her xenophobia is not reprehensible, but it's part of what made her an interesting character, and definitely more interesting than Liara.

[Jeremy Winston]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Valmy wrote...

The fact is, she never said that.  She said the aliens would sacrifice the humans and they should not be trusted.

It isn't just that, though.  She makes quite a few random comments, like, "I can't tell the aliens from the animals", and other such insensitive things.  In ME2 she says straight up that she isn't a fan of aliens.  I'm not saying that she is genocidal or even outwardly hostile to aliens, but she does have a humans-first attitude instead of simply treating each of them as an individual person.  This seems undeniable to me.

Abraham Lincoln said "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people"

and then went on to prosecute a war that (legally, at least) freed over 9 million men women and children in the U.S.

People tend not to be perfect enlightened baby lambs who constantly say the perfect thing at the perfect time.  By sacrificing herself to destroy the Virmire genophage cure/indoctrination lab or by joining the mutiny of the Normandy and going on the suicide mission to Ilos/battle of the Citadel, Ashely's actions speak much louder than some ridiculous off-hand remark she made on her very first visit to a non-human place with lots of aliens (normally on crap cushy assignments like eden prime).

Indeed.

When did Lincoln say that, btw?

[xedgorex]

I disliked Ashley because she was way too religious and racist and her face was Jacked.

Jack i had high hopes for but she really just turned out to be a whiney baby who said F*** for the sake of saying it. I dont dig people who are violent for violence sake and profane for profanities sake.

They were well written characters and it makes sense people like them, but because they were well written they'd obviously be hated by some people too.

[Arrtis]

If the girl is too tough it scares me.

[Jarcander]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Jarcander wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Then you'd think she'd (Ash) be pro-Cerberus or that Terra group.  Yet she isn't.  Deeper character?  Or bad writing?

Nah, I don't think that's it. She is just single-minded and stubborn in her views. Alliance really needs to screw her on a personal level to loose her loyalty.

Psh.. Alliance has been screwing her family over for two generations.

She didn't whine about it much in ME1 and still seemed pretty pro-Alliance in ME2. I guess deep down she really thinks Alliance is right and her family is a bunch of quiters and need to work harder and smarter.

[Markinator_123]

Frotality wrote...

well for me its because the tend to represent krogan men more the human females. jack and ashley have a whole lotta kick-assery, but very little sense or intelligence to complement it. if i found a woman IRL who could kick my ass in a blind rage like ash or jack, i would have her checked into an asylum. if i found a woman who could simalarly kick my ass, but for some logical reason that i could undertand, i would marry her. ashley and jack are 'irrationally' blunt and violent, and thats the turn off.

EDIT: and thinking about it that probably makes miranda my deam girl:P. smart and deadly FTW

You, my friend, share my views. High-five to you! A nice change of pace from the "I hate Ashley because she is racist" argument

[DuffyMJ]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ashley was great and it makes a great deal more sense to be suspicious of aliens than haphazardly-trusting of aliens. Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

He can manage to be a paragon because you, the player, force him to be.  As you can see from the canon ME2 initial condition, Shepard is no paragon.

Upbringing and environment is almost everything.  You learn from experiences, and if you have no experiences that allow you to decide that paragon-type choices are good, then why would you go that way?  Do you feel that some sort of morality is built into the human psyche?

There is no canon Mass Effect play-through.  That's a mute point. 

Upbringing and environment are only "almost everything" from the perspective of university educated social science-indoctrinated post-1960s western post-modernists.

And yes, certain mores are built into the human psyche, most notably fairness which can be observed as a value in human babies even before the acculturation process begins.

There is a canon ME play-through. It's what you get when you don't import ME1.  It's how BioWare sees the natural development of the character.

I am not well versed in university social sciences.  What else do you think comes into play?  As for the inherent fairness, it's not because of "being fair." But in cooperation.  What would an infant do when, while being 'fair' was always stepped on everytime it was fair?  It would learn, pretty damn quickly, that 'fair' means that it suffers.

Na, Bioware did not choose default non-import circumstances for that reason, that was picked due to the fact that it was the situation which had the least ties to Mass Effect 1, thus reducing confusion for new players to the game (who, for examlpe, would be like "who the hell are these guys?" when talking to the old Citadel council). 

It has nothing to do with your specific education, it has to do with the mass inertia of society, what would be called a philosophical paradigm.  Hardly anyone in the 19th Century went to college, yet society in general was highly utilitarian, mercantile, bought the idea of eugenics, and believed in social grand narratives and "empire".  No one in the world approached ideas or interpreted events through psycho-analytic perspectives.  Since the post-modern age, however, even little kids play with ideas of lay-psychology "reverse psychology" "he's just projecting", etc...  Intellectual discourse spills into popular culture and ideas.

Many other things come into play.  We are social animals, but we are also individualists with free will, unless you also believe in pre-destination in which case we don't have free will.  Social upbringing is one factor, present circumstance is a factor, emotional state of mind, consequence, cost/benefit, parochial social mores, state-level social mores/civic duties, family mores, extended family mores, utility, vindictiveness, rehabilitatation (atonement for example), biological determinism (hormone levels causing high crime rates in the 18-25 male demographic for example)... these are all variables in any given decision.

Social factors are simply one of a plethora of factors that effect people.  Factors are just factors, though, and every person alive no matter what they internalize or allow themselves to be influenced by codify their decisions and take on responsibility for their actions through choice.