248 réponses à ce sujet

[Markinator_123]

This is turning into quite the discussion.

[Giantevilhead]

DuffyMJ wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

mrfett wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

Don't see this at ALL. Jack is out for revenge on Cerberous. What's wrong with that? She's making the choice to not get too close to people, although she tries religion once and realizes it's full of the same hypocrites as everywhere else. She's not relying on anyone but herself. Don't see how she's a "typical scumbag" unless you are just really anti-criminal (which I hope is who you are blanketing with that term).

My biggest problem with Jack is that she doesn't want to join the "Girls Club". Totally lame. My problem with Ashley is she looks too butch. Strange how I think Jack is totally hot though 

I work in corrections, and I wouldn't call myself anti-criminal per say, just anti-people who don't take responsibility for their actions.  Some prisoners know what they did was wrong and acknowledge their bad decisions and even go back to the community during parole and try to join organizations to prevent kids from making the same mistakes they did.  Those are admirable people.  Not so admirable people are those who blame society or blame mom and dad.  Even if it was society's fault or mom and dad's fault, they alone made the decisions to hurt people, no one held a gun to their head. 

If that Quarian on the Citadel could live in the Turian shelter or that Quarian on Omega could eek out a living selling scrapped parts but being an otherwise decent kid in a hive of villainy and mercenaries, then Jack should have been more than capable of doing something good and productive with her life with her natural biotic talents.  Instead, though, she hurts people, kills and wears trophies for her kills on her body, and dwells on vengence.

From an early age, not only was she tortured and abused, but she was trained to fight other kids.

At one point, you can't say "It's her fault for not being good!" because it's not her fault. If someone is raised by their parents to hate something, and they hate it as an adult, it's not their fault for hating it. It's the parents' fault for teaching them that. Jack didn't have anyone to teach her right from wrong, because the people raising her where trying to turn her into a biotic monster.

It's not their fault as children, no, but it is their fault once they are old enough to think for themselves and sustain their own living expenses.  There's no excuse for hate crime from someone who is old enough to read Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches or Malcom X's book or Langston Hughes or Fredrick Douglas, WEB DuBois, etc.  If your mom dies of breast cancer while you're a little kid, is it your mom's fault that you didn't have 2 parents telling you not to smoke crack and so you ended up experimenting and becoming an addict as a teen?  No.  It's your own decision. 

Jack was experimented upon and abused, and once off on her own engaged in a dangerous self-destructive lifestyle on her own free will.  Maybe instead of joining a cult she should have joined the system's alliance or helped L2 biotics receive repirations or something.

That's not how it works. Conditioning of that kind doesn't break easily.

If someone was conditioned from childhood to be a racist then that person will have negative reactions to the people they were taught to hate. In fact, with racists, the emotion most often use to condition people is disgust. Imagine feeling the desire to throw up when you look at a person of another race. Depending on the strength of the conditioning, it could be extremely difficult to break. Having the person read Dr. Martin Luther King's speeches isn't going to help if that person reflexively feels anger and disgust at even the thought of black people.

Jack was conditioned through methods that are even more extreme. Cerberus used drugs to condition Jack's pleasure centers to activate when she gets into a fight. They also conditioned her to feel no remorse or sorrow. They pretty much made her a sociopath.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 13 février 2010 - 12:26 .

[DuffyMJ]

mrfett wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

By sacrificing herself to destroy the Virmire genophage cure/indoctrination lab or by joining the mutiny of the Normandy and going on the suicide mission to Ilos/battle of the Citadel, Ashely's actions speak much louder than some ridiculous off-hand remark she made on her very first visit to a non-human place with lots of aliens (normally on crap cushy assignments like eden prime).

See OK if you feel this way about Ashley, then you should see that it's the same with Jack. I had Jack be the biotic who held the shield wall against the swarms. I gave her that specifically to see if she could rise to the occasion and do something self-less for her team, and she came through it with flying colors. I was really proud of her, and so pissed I couldn't nail her (I play a femShep).

Jack is only participating in the mission as part of a bargain to obtain sensitive Cerberus information though, she doesn't actually care about humanity or the fate of sentient life... Ash did, and on top of that also cared about her family's honor so she has inherit nobility in her actions.  Jack just... doesn't.

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 13 février 2010 - 12:17 .

[Mooner911]

Gollum

[ShadyKat]

All the girls of Mass Effect are "Tough". There just happens to be tough, and ****y. Ash and Jack come off as ****y, complaining and whiny almost all the time. IMO that doesn't make them tough. Miranda is a good example of someone who is tough, without the in your face crap that Jack and Ash both try.

[GenericPlayer2]

There is a big difference between being 'tough' and being rebellious, insubordinate and an overall jerk. That is what Jack is. I can see 'tough' being ascribed to Miranda or Ash, but not Jack's behavior is what what I would call 'tough'

[Jonathan Shepard]

I DID like Jack. Then I romanced her. No after-suicide mission romance dialogue? Lazy devs. Plus there's the fact that she's running around nearly topless. That kinda disturbs me and puts me off. Hey, I like a shirtless girl as much as the next guy... but she's supposed to somehow not freeze to death in no-atmosphere environments? Deflect bullets with a suddenly invisible biotic barrier?



Actually, barrier IS invisible now. And that kinda pisses me off.

[gneissguy2003]

DuffyMJ wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

mrfett wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

Don't see this at ALL. Jack is out for revenge on Cerberous. What's wrong with that? She's making the choice to not get too close to people, although she tries religion once and realizes it's full of the same hypocrites as everywhere else. She's not relying on anyone but herself. Don't see how she's a "typical scumbag" unless you are just really anti-criminal (which I hope is who you are blanketing with that term).

My biggest problem with Jack is that she doesn't want to join the "Girls Club". Totally lame. My problem with Ashley is she looks too butch. Strange how I think Jack is totally hot though 

I work in corrections, and I wouldn't call myself anti-criminal per say, just anti-people who don't take responsibility for their actions.  Some prisoners know what they did was wrong and acknowledge their bad decisions and even go back to the community during parole and try to join organizations to prevent kids from making the same mistakes they did.  Those are admirable people.  Not so admirable people are those who blame society or blame mom and dad.  Even if it was society's fault or mom and dad's fault, they alone made the decisions to hurt people, no one held a gun to their head. 

If that Quarian on the Citadel could live in the Turian shelter or that Quarian on Omega could eek out a living selling scrapped parts but being an otherwise decent kid in a hive of villainy and mercenaries, then Jack should have been more than capable of doing something good and productive with her life with her natural biotic talents.  Instead, though, she hurts people, kills and wears trophies for her kills on her body, and dwells on vengence.

From an early age, not only was she tortured and abused, but she was trained to fight other kids.

At one point, you can't say "It's her fault for not being good!" because it's not her fault. If someone is raised by their parents to hate something, and they hate it as an adult, it's not their fault for hating it. It's the parents' fault for teaching them that. Jack didn't have anyone to teach her right from wrong, because the people raising her where trying to turn her into a biotic monster.

It's not their fault as children, no, but it is their fault once they are old enough to think for themselves and sustain their own living expenses.  There's no excuse for hate crime from someone who is old enough to read Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches or Malcom X's book or Langston Hughes or Fredrick Douglas, WEB DuBois, etc.  If your mom dies of breast cancer while you're a little kid, is it your mom's fault that you didn't have 2 parents telling you not to smoke crack and so you ended up experimenting and becoming an addict as a teen?  No.  It's your own decision. 

Jack was experimented upon and abused, and once off on her own engaged in a dangerous self-destructive lifestyle on her own free will.  Maybe instead of joining a cult she should have joined the system's alliance or helped L2 biotics receive repirations or something.

I keep trying to side with you, Duffy, because in many ways I agree with you and believe in what you're trying to say. But, for whatever reason, I just don't think Jack's case is that cut and dry. Knowing what we do about her past, I can't just wave it off and say that her actions were wrong. I, personally, may deem them wrong because of my personal perspective and beliefs on life and morality, but that doesn't mean that my views are "right". Jack says that she lives by her instincts. If she feels threatened or in danger, then she does whatever she has to in order to survive even if it means killing someone. Most of us might not see that statement and think she's right or think that there are more options, but I'm also willing to bet that if any of us were in such a situation that we would do the same. Mankind can create whatever laws it wants to govern its civilizations, but in the end the laws of nature always win out.

Besides, in the context of the game, she wouldn't be the valuable squad member that she is if it weren't for that perspective and instinctive nature of her's. It's exactly because of her choices (wrong or not) and what they have made her into that we need her for the mission. If she were any other way, well... what good would she be?

[BattleVisor]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is only participating in the mission as part of a bargain to obtain sensitive Cerberus information though, she doesn't actually care about humanity or the fate of sentient life... Ash did, and on top of that also cared about her family's honor so she has inherit nobility in her actions.  Jack just... doesn't.

Exactly.

PS: Any guy who plays mainly as femshep is weird

[gneissguy2003]

BattleVisor wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is only participating in the mission as part of a bargain to obtain sensitive Cerberus information though, she doesn't actually care about humanity or the fate of sentient life... Ash did, and on top of that also cared about her family's honor so she has inherit nobility in her actions.  Jack just... doesn't.

Exactly.

PS: Any guy who plays mainly as femshep is weird

I'll bet you also think that any guy who knows how to sew, knit, or bake a cake is weird, too.

[Doug84]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

There is a big difference between being 'tough' and being rebellious, insubordinate and an overall jerk. That is what Jack is. I can see 'tough' being ascribed to Miranda or Ash, but not Jack's behavior is what what I would call 'tough'

Agreed. And I liked both Miranda and Ash, but Jack I hate.

[DuffyMJ]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

mrfett wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

Don't see this at ALL. Jack is out for revenge on Cerberous. What's wrong with that? She's making the choice to not get too close to people, although she tries religion once and realizes it's full of the same hypocrites as everywhere else. She's not relying on anyone but herself. Don't see how she's a "typical scumbag" unless you are just really anti-criminal (which I hope is who you are blanketing with that term).

My biggest problem with Jack is that she doesn't want to join the "Girls Club". Totally lame. My problem with Ashley is she looks too butch. Strange how I think Jack is totally hot though 

I work in corrections, and I wouldn't call myself anti-criminal per say, just anti-people who don't take responsibility for their actions.  Some prisoners know what they did was wrong and acknowledge their bad decisions and even go back to the community during parole and try to join organizations to prevent kids from making the same mistakes they did.  Those are admirable people.  Not so admirable people are those who blame society or blame mom and dad.  Even if it was society's fault or mom and dad's fault, they alone made the decisions to hurt people, no one held a gun to their head. 

If that Quarian on the Citadel could live in the Turian shelter or that Quarian on Omega could eek out a living selling scrapped parts but being an otherwise decent kid in a hive of villainy and mercenaries, then Jack should have been more than capable of doing something good and productive with her life with her natural biotic talents.  Instead, though, she hurts people, kills and wears trophies for her kills on her body, and dwells on vengence.

From an early age, not only was she tortured and abused, but she was trained to fight other kids.

At one point, you can't say "It's her fault for not being good!" because it's not her fault. If someone is raised by their parents to hate something, and they hate it as an adult, it's not their fault for hating it. It's the parents' fault for teaching them that. Jack didn't have anyone to teach her right from wrong, because the people raising her where trying to turn her into a biotic monster.

It's not their fault as children, no, but it is their fault once they are old enough to think for themselves and sustain their own living expenses.  There's no excuse for hate crime from someone who is old enough to read Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches or Malcom X's book or Langston Hughes or Fredrick Douglas, WEB DuBois, etc.  If your mom dies of breast cancer while you're a little kid, is it your mom's fault that you didn't have 2 parents telling you not to smoke crack and so you ended up experimenting and becoming an addict as a teen?  No.  It's your own decision. 

Jack was experimented upon and abused, and once off on her own engaged in a dangerous self-destructive lifestyle on her own free will.  Maybe instead of joining a cult she should have joined the system's alliance or helped L2 biotics receive repirations or something.

I keep trying to side with you, Duffy, because in many ways I agree with you and believe in what you're trying to say. But, for whatever reason, I just don't think Jack's case is that cut and dry. Knowing what we do about her past, I can't just wave it off and say that her actions were wrong. I, personally, may deem them wrong because of my personal perspective and beliefs on life and morality, but that doesn't mean that my views are "right". Jack says that she lives by her instincts. If she feels threatened or in danger, then she does whatever she has to in order to survive even if it means killing someone. Most of us might not see that statement and think she's right or think that there are more options, but I'm also willing to bet that if any of us were in such a situation that we would do the same. Mankind can create whatever laws it wants to govern its civilizations, but in the end the laws of nature always win out.

Besides, in the context of the game, she wouldn't be the valuable squad member that she is if it weren't for that perspective and instinctive nature of her's. It's exactly because of her choices (wrong or not) and what they have made her into that we need her for the mission. If she were any other way, well... what good would she be?

I know that morals are very ambiguous and difficult to even define in a virtual world like a game or just in conversation, but in the real world it comes down to empathy.  It's immoral to steal it's almost universally agreed, but theft because very ambiguous outside the realm of street crime.  Theft that actually damages society (insider trading and white collar theft in general) does not involve interpersonal hurt, so we can't look to our own compassions to empathize with others for the damage we cause at the aggregate level.  Jack's crimes, though, are street crimes.  She is killing people, hurting people... even if she's feeling threatened, every person she kills and all the collateral damage involved... she's killing someones dad, brother, sister, mother, etc.  She doesn't empathize with people and she considers people who do to be wusses (her first reaction to paragon shep being any indication).  

[BattleVisor]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is only participating in the mission as part of a bargain to obtain sensitive Cerberus information though, she doesn't actually care about humanity or the fate of sentient life... Ash did, and on top of that also cared about her family's honor so she has inherit nobility in her actions.  Jack just... doesn't.

Exactly.

PS: Any guy who plays mainly as femshep is weird

I'll bet you also think that any guy who knows how to sew, knit, or bake a cake is weird, too.

....no those are called useful skills. Sewing especially [the occasional ripped trouser pants ]

[gneissguy2003]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see Miranda as "tough". Looking at some of the early conversations you have with her, she comes across as being somewhat hypocritical. She describes herself as this powerful, confident, genetically modified marvel... and yet she also basically says "yeah, so I'm a tool for TIM, and I do whatever he wants". She's not tough. She's a lapdog.

[gneissguy2003]

DuffyMJ wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

mrfett wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

Don't see this at ALL. Jack is out for revenge on Cerberous. What's wrong with that? She's making the choice to not get too close to people, although she tries religion once and realizes it's full of the same hypocrites as everywhere else. She's not relying on anyone but herself. Don't see how she's a "typical scumbag" unless you are just really anti-criminal (which I hope is who you are blanketing with that term).

My biggest problem with Jack is that she doesn't want to join the "Girls Club". Totally lame. My problem with Ashley is she looks too butch. Strange how I think Jack is totally hot though 

I work in corrections, and I wouldn't call myself anti-criminal per say, just anti-people who don't take responsibility for their actions.  Some prisoners know what they did was wrong and acknowledge their bad decisions and even go back to the community during parole and try to join organizations to prevent kids from making the same mistakes they did.  Those are admirable people.  Not so admirable people are those who blame society or blame mom and dad.  Even if it was society's fault or mom and dad's fault, they alone made the decisions to hurt people, no one held a gun to their head. 

If that Quarian on the Citadel could live in the Turian shelter or that Quarian on Omega could eek out a living selling scrapped parts but being an otherwise decent kid in a hive of villainy and mercenaries, then Jack should have been more than capable of doing something good and productive with her life with her natural biotic talents.  Instead, though, she hurts people, kills and wears trophies for her kills on her body, and dwells on vengence.

From an early age, not only was she tortured and abused, but she was trained to fight other kids.

At one point, you can't say "It's her fault for not being good!" because it's not her fault. If someone is raised by their parents to hate something, and they hate it as an adult, it's not their fault for hating it. It's the parents' fault for teaching them that. Jack didn't have anyone to teach her right from wrong, because the people raising her where trying to turn her into a biotic monster.

It's not their fault as children, no, but it is their fault once they are old enough to think for themselves and sustain their own living expenses.  There's no excuse for hate crime from someone who is old enough to read Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches or Malcom X's book or Langston Hughes or Fredrick Douglas, WEB DuBois, etc.  If your mom dies of breast cancer while you're a little kid, is it your mom's fault that you didn't have 2 parents telling you not to smoke crack and so you ended up experimenting and becoming an addict as a teen?  No.  It's your own decision. 

Jack was experimented upon and abused, and once off on her own engaged in a dangerous self-destructive lifestyle on her own free will.  Maybe instead of joining a cult she should have joined the system's alliance or helped L2 biotics receive repirations or something.

I keep trying to side with you, Duffy, because in many ways I agree with you and believe in what you're trying to say. But, for whatever reason, I just don't think Jack's case is that cut and dry. Knowing what we do about her past, I can't just wave it off and say that her actions were wrong. I, personally, may deem them wrong because of my personal perspective and beliefs on life and morality, but that doesn't mean that my views are "right". Jack says that she lives by her instincts. If she feels threatened or in danger, then she does whatever she has to in order to survive even if it means killing someone. Most of us might not see that statement and think she's right or think that there are more options, but I'm also willing to bet that if any of us were in such a situation that we would do the same. Mankind can create whatever laws it wants to govern its civilizations, but in the end the laws of nature always win out.

Besides, in the context of the game, she wouldn't be the valuable squad member that she is if it weren't for that perspective and instinctive nature of her's. It's exactly because of her choices (wrong or not) and what they have made her into that we need her for the mission. If she were any other way, well... what good would she be?

I know that morals are very ambiguous and difficult to even define in a virtual world like a game or just in conversation, but in the real world it comes down to empathy.  It's immoral to steal it's almost universally agreed, but theft because very ambiguous outside the realm of street crime.  Theft that actually damages society (insider trading and white collar theft in general) does not involve interpersonal hurt, so we can't look to our own compassions to empathize with others for the damage we cause at the aggregate level.  Jack's crimes, though, are street crimes.  She is killing people, hurting people... even if she's feeling threatened, every person she kills and all the collateral damage involved... she's killing someones dad, brother, sister, mother, etc.  She doesn't empathize with people and she considers people who do to be wusses (her first reaction to paragon shep being any indication).  

At the same time, though, who has ever cared to try to empathize with Jack? That's my whole point. You blame her for being an awful person for not being willing to empathize and feel remorse for other people when, for her entire life, that's exactly the way anyone and everyone has treated her. If that's all you know or ever feel, then how can you possibly know that there's anything else out there. And, in the one instance of her past where someone DID show some sort of care or compassion for her, that person's reward for being considerate of her and her well-being was death. That's her experience, that's the data with which she bases all her choices off of.  Again, it's hard for me to blame her for those things when no one gave a damn about her in return.

[Nightwriter]

When it comes to Jack’s behavior, there isn’t so much there to excuse as there is to understand.
 
Jack’s past is not a justification for her actions – it’s an explanation for them. All our pasts are. An explanation can mean much more than an excuse, and it does, for me. I really do understand why she is the way she is.

[keginkc]

There's nothing wrong with tough chicks. Hell, I prefer them. What I don't like are psychopaths and racists. Which is the initial impression that Jack and Ash give. I had to dig pretty deeply into both of them to find something to like, something that made them sympathetic in my eyes, and I can understand why other people aren't in love with them.  Because on the surface they really aren't all that likeable.

That's the real beauty of good characterization.

Modifié par keginkc, 13 février 2010 - 01:11 .

[Markinator_123]

Apparantly, we all have different definitions of a "tough chick." The current definition I am refering are those women, who are short-tempered, full of anger, usually ticked off, and sometimes do not appear to be too bright or have good leadership qualities but try to take charge anyway. Just trying to make myself clear

[Funkcase]

I like them both alot, Ash in my opinion is one of the best caracters in the ME series and the best caracter in ME1 she felt so real! I loved her poetry, her love for family and how she uses humor to hide how she feels. I was not a fan of her view on aliens but that can be changed when you teach her that it is wrong, plus the only way for caracters to feel real is to have some gray spot on them this realy fleshed out her caracter.



Jack is a brilliant caracter and i realy wanted to help her, her tough attitude just showed me how much she realy needs someone to be there for her and let her no everything will be alright.

[Rubber65Soul]

<--- Favorite new character

[Invalidcode]

I like Jack once Shepard get to know her a little bit more. Ash? Nope.

[Funkenstein23]

Peoples dislike for Jack doesn't stem from her being strong or aggressive it stems from her being old hat. I get her. I get her shtick. She's Spawn. She's The Punisher. She's every hardcore, Xtreme, youth gone wild stereotype rolled up into one. I personally don't hate her, but I don't like her either because I've seen her. I know what tricks that one has up her violent, swearing, tattooed sleeves. The reason I know, is because I've seen it all before.

[Nightwriter]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

Peoples dislike for Jack doesn't stem from her being strong or aggressive it stems from her being old hat. I get her. I get her shtick. She's Spawn. She's The Punisher. She's every hardcore, Xtreme, youth gone wild stereotype rolled up into one. I personally don't hate her, but I don't like her either because I've seen her. I know what tricks that one has up her violent, swearing, tattooed sleeves. The reason I know, is because I've seen it all before.

So, basically, “you’ve had that before”.
 
You know what else I bet you’ve had before? Sex. So why don’t you stop having it? Been there, done that, old hat—why do it again, since you’ve already done it? Maybe you should just stop having sex altogether, since it’s explored terrain now. How could you possibly enjoy it again?

People go on about cliches, but the truth is, I'll never get tired of exploring interesting characters like this, and Jack was worth exploring to me. I also think she was unique, and that she shouldn't be tossed aside just because there have been other similar character molds before.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 février 2010 - 01:41 .

[DuffyMJ]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

mrfett wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jack is ridiculous, though. Typical scumbag who blames social conditions and determinism/predestination for his/her problems instead of his/her choices. Being abused and tortured isn't a license to break laws.

Upbringing is important, but it's still simply a weight on outcome, not a key stone. Shepard can be Earthborn and Ruthless but still can manage to be a paragon, after all.

Don't see this at ALL. Jack is out for revenge on Cerberous. What's wrong with that? She's making the choice to not get too close to people, although she tries religion once and realizes it's full of the same hypocrites as everywhere else. She's not relying on anyone but herself. Don't see how she's a "typical scumbag" unless you are just really anti-criminal (which I hope is who you are blanketing with that term).

My biggest problem with Jack is that she doesn't want to join the "Girls Club". Totally lame. My problem with Ashley is she looks too butch. Strange how I think Jack is totally hot though 

I work in corrections, and I wouldn't call myself anti-criminal per say, just anti-people who don't take responsibility for their actions.  Some prisoners know what they did was wrong and acknowledge their bad decisions and even go back to the community during parole and try to join organizations to prevent kids from making the same mistakes they did.  Those are admirable people.  Not so admirable people are those who blame society or blame mom and dad.  Even if it was society's fault or mom and dad's fault, they alone made the decisions to hurt people, no one held a gun to their head. 

If that Quarian on the Citadel could live in the Turian shelter or that Quarian on Omega could eek out a living selling scrapped parts but being an otherwise decent kid in a hive of villainy and mercenaries, then Jack should have been more than capable of doing something good and productive with her life with her natural biotic talents.  Instead, though, she hurts people, kills and wears trophies for her kills on her body, and dwells on vengence.

From an early age, not only was she tortured and abused, but she was trained to fight other kids.

At one point, you can't say "It's her fault for not being good!" because it's not her fault. If someone is raised by their parents to hate something, and they hate it as an adult, it's not their fault for hating it. It's the parents' fault for teaching them that. Jack didn't have anyone to teach her right from wrong, because the people raising her where trying to turn her into a biotic monster.

It's not their fault as children, no, but it is their fault once they are old enough to think for themselves and sustain their own living expenses.  There's no excuse for hate crime from someone who is old enough to read Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches or Malcom X's book or Langston Hughes or Fredrick Douglas, WEB DuBois, etc.  If your mom dies of breast cancer while you're a little kid, is it your mom's fault that you didn't have 2 parents telling you not to smoke crack and so you ended up experimenting and becoming an addict as a teen?  No.  It's your own decision. 

Jack was experimented upon and abused, and once off on her own engaged in a dangerous self-destructive lifestyle on her own free will.  Maybe instead of joining a cult she should have joined the system's alliance or helped L2 biotics receive repirations or something.

I keep trying to side with you, Duffy, because in many ways I agree with you and believe in what you're trying to say. But, for whatever reason, I just don't think Jack's case is that cut and dry. Knowing what we do about her past, I can't just wave it off and say that her actions were wrong. I, personally, may deem them wrong because of my personal perspective and beliefs on life and morality, but that doesn't mean that my views are "right". Jack says that she lives by her instincts. If she feels threatened or in danger, then she does whatever she has to in order to survive even if it means killing someone. Most of us might not see that statement and think she's right or think that there are more options, but I'm also willing to bet that if any of us were in such a situation that we would do the same. Mankind can create whatever laws it wants to govern its civilizations, but in the end the laws of nature always win out.

Besides, in the context of the game, she wouldn't be the valuable squad member that she is if it weren't for that perspective and instinctive nature of her's. It's exactly because of her choices (wrong or not) and what they have made her into that we need her for the mission. If she were any other way, well... what good would she be?

I know that morals are very ambiguous and difficult to even define in a virtual world like a game or just in conversation, but in the real world it comes down to empathy.  It's immoral to steal it's almost universally agreed, but theft because very ambiguous outside the realm of street crime.  Theft that actually damages society (insider trading and white collar theft in general) does not involve interpersonal hurt, so we can't look to our own compassions to empathize with others for the damage we cause at the aggregate level.  Jack's crimes, though, are street crimes.  She is killing people, hurting people... even if she's feeling threatened, every person she kills and all the collateral damage involved... she's killing someones dad, brother, sister, mother, etc.  She doesn't empathize with people and she considers people who do to be wusses (her first reaction to paragon shep being any indication).  

At the same time, though, who has ever cared to try to empathize with Jack? That's my whole point. You blame her for being an awful person for not being willing to empathize and feel remorse for other people when, for her entire life, that's exactly the way anyone and everyone has treated her. If that's all you know or ever feel, then how can you possibly know that there's anything else out there. And, in the one instance of her past where someone DID show some sort of care or compassion for her, that person's reward for being considerate of her and her well-being was death. That's her experience, that's the data with which she bases all her choices off of.  Again, it's hard for me to blame her for those things when no one gave a damn about her in return.

Her choices are the reason such people surrounded her.  She chose to run with gangs, cults, etc... organizations full of immoral people.  This as opposed to joining the alliance, the intergalactic red cross, or whatever... organizations with compassionate, honorable people. 

[DuffyMJ]

Nightwriter wrote...

When it comes to Jack’s behavior, there isn’t so much there to excuse as there is to understand.
 
Jack’s past is not a justification for her actions – it’s an explanation for them. All our pasts are. An explanation can mean much more than an excuse, and it does, for me. I really do understand why she is the way she is.

Unfortunately touchy-feely "understanding people" is not an option once someone commits to taking other peoples' lives, blowing up other peoples' property and other such horrors.  Lawyers are hated in criminal justice circles is for that very reason... they defend the right of people who murder/rob/rape others while simultaneously trying to discredit the rights of the victims...