329 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Yeah, ever since after Virmire, whenever the council was talking to me I was thinking "Joker, break out the sensor logs. How about that time the largest dreadnought in the galaxy was in Virmire's gravity well and atmosphere and turned faster than a frigate? Yeah, upload that to the council, please."

[Dzikv]

The writers are brain dead... The story of ME2 is the proof. You don't need house for that diagnosis.

Modifié par Dzikv, 13 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[ThisIsMadness91]

I think the Council spent so long convincing the rest of the galaxy that Sovereign was a geth ship that they eventually convinced themselves it was true.

[Terraneaux]

You know, it's sad, because I feel that the gameplay really improved in ME2, and some of the NPC and environmental dialogue was really good, but the main storyline and how previous love interests were handled just sort of fell flat.

[TLK Spires]

council has either been brain dead or amassing a huge counter measure and won't even tell the spectre who saved their lives

[huntrrz]

04WigmoreB wrote...

I seriously hope in ME3 I get the chance to shoot that turian counciler. I don't care that all my Mass Effect Characters in both the games are complete Paragons ... I want to shoot that guy.

Naaahhhh.

It's like the Krogans say - the worst insult you can give anyone is to let them know they're not worth killing.

The best revenge against the Council would be to make them irrelevant.  Save the galaxy, then point out how they were useless and form a new government that excludes any input from them.  They stammer and demand, but all the other races they've ignored and endangered simply... ignore them.

Sweet, sweet vengeance!

[tsd16]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Just to point out something that kinda bugs me, and I've seen it used wrong in other places, too.

"Carbon dating" is only usable on ORGANIC tissue.  A Reaper, I would assume, is metal and circuitry.  Even if there is organic tissue, however, carbon dating can only be used up to the point where the organic tissue DIED, as in stopped taking in carbon.  All you'd find out from using carbon dating on Sovereign would be to find out that he died, yeah, a few weeks ago.

Granted, I'm sure there's probably some techno-babbly thing that can determine the age of electronics or something, but still... carbon dating doesn't work like that.

(The one that really annoyed me was when an MST3K movie had a scientist determine that a BRONZE STATUE was from THE FUTURE using carbon dating.  So many things wrong with that.) 

it appears you can date iron and metal ore's.  But I suppose we have no idea what a reaper is made of.

Basically carbon dating is still an estimate, carbon degrades at a certain rate, and based on the degradation of carbon they estimate how old something is.


http://www.c14dating.com/k12.html

what kind of things can you date using radiocarbon?

Because carbon is very common on Earth, there are alot of different types of material which can be dated by scientists.
Below is a list of the different kinds of materials which can be dated:

• Charcoal, wood, twigs and seeds.
• Bone.
• Marine, estuarine and riverine shell.
• Leather.
• Peat
• Coprolites (samples of preserved faeces).
• Lake muds (gyttja) and sediments.
• Soil.
• Ice cores.
• Pollen.
• Hair.
• Pottery.
• Metal casting ores.
• Wall paintings and rock art works.
• Iron and meteorites.
• Bird eggshell.
• Corals and foraminifera.
• Blood residues.
• Textiles and fabrics.
• Paper and parchment.
• Fish remains.
• Insect remains.
• Resins and glues.
• Antler and horn.
• Water.

[Ulicus]

Being unable to "date" the Reaper doesn't bother me at all, even though it's nearly Valentine's Day. It could be made of whatever kind of "magic alloy". The Council's disbelief still makes no sense to me, for the reasons I outlined earlier.

I'm not one of those who is wailing and moaning about ME2's story. Hell, I actually think the story is far better suited to a video game focused on exploration than was ME1's "race against time"... but this particular aspect feels like a kick in the nuts. Ouch.

Modifié par Ulicus, 13 février 2010 - 11:30 .

[Jedi_blues]

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...

Wynne:
Actually I did have a discussion with the writer (Mac Walters) about this topic. And he explained his view, and ultimately decided that he preferred leaving it the same. And that's his job, as a writer, to pick what he thinks is best, so I don't have any problem with it.

And so I definitely am not implying the writers don't listen! They definitely do.

As for the Council being evil or stupid - Udina is maliciously stupid, and that's clearly portrayed, but if that's true of the Council also, its not portrayed strongly enough. I have a tendency to guess that the rulers of a successful peaceful galaxy are probably reasonably intelligent and good.

As for some of the cynicism of politicians, I don't buy it. Politicians aren't all bad. Hell, I've known some.

Oh yeah and to the guy that said I could learn a bit of politics from his post - you know nothing about my level of education. And what you wrote is pretty flimsy. I don't think you've done a very good job of teaching "politics." I learned more in PolySci 101.

As a fellow writer I'd like to talk to Mr. Walters. I get the Council publicly denying the Reapers, but you have to believe with all this technology Shep's suit or omni tool can record things. The fact that the council is privately not looking at their options is just ridiculous. I get that the writers wanted/needed Shep to feel isolated, like Cerberus was the only one that could help him, but you have to find a better plot device than that. Hell, just having them pouring everything they have into preparing for more Reapers and because of this overlooking the threat/connection of the Collectors would be better. And that's pretty simple.

Modifié par Jedi_blues, 13 février 2010 - 11:43 .

[GodWood]

The council were always stupid, why is this shocking now?

[Aradace]

camcon2100 wrote...

Ok so at the end of ME1 the council is thanking you for saving them from the reapers. Now all of the sudden they dont exist. Could anyone explain what the hell happend???

One word my friend, "Politics".  If you think ANY government wouldnt go to any lengths to cover something up, then you are either too young to understand, or too naieve.  I pray its more the former than the latter.

[Jedi_blues]

Sapienti wrote...

Its politics. A government figurehead is not going to announce a threat to the public without knowing how to handle it because it would cause mass panic. The best way to go about handling an unknown threat is to pretend it does not exist, to politicians thats a great idea. Wipe out all evidence and worry about whatever it is when you know how to do something about it in the mean time you send private operatives to look into the problem so if they get busted there is no political blowback. Not understanding politics does not mean the devs "went brain dead".

The problem is Anderson is ON the bloody council, and he says he can't convince them it is real.

I agree, having them publicly deny it while privately working on it makes sense, it is what they should have done.

But that is clearly not anywhere close to how it is presented in game.

Modifié par Jedi_blues, 13 février 2010 - 11:49 .

[Aradace]

Jedi_blues wrote...

Sapienti wrote...

Its politics. A government figurehead is not going to announce a threat to the public without knowing how to handle it because it would cause mass panic. The best way to go about handling an unknown threat is to pretend it does not exist, to politicians thats a great idea. Wipe out all evidence and worry about whatever it is when you know how to do something about it in the mean time you send private operatives to look into the problem so if they get busted there is no political blowback. Not understanding politics does not mean the devs "went brain dead".

The problem is Anderson is ON the bloody council, and he says he can't convince them it is real.

I agree, having them publicly deny it while privately working on it makes, sense, it is what they should have done.

But that is clearly not anywhere close to how it is presented in game.

Not to mention that it's said that the council wasnt convinced that "Sovereign" was anything more than a Geth Warship.  So yea, it's a mix of politics and the council just being stupid.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Reapers are made out of people-goo. Why wouldn't you be able to carbon-date them?

[ToJKa1]

After the three stooges council suggested that Cerberus was using the treath of Reapers to manipulate Shepard like Saren, my Shepard, in a calm and collected manner, removed her glove from the right hand, facepalmed, put her glove back on, and walked out without saying a thing.

A bit like my Warden dropping on floor laughing when the dwarf crier speaks of "demon worship" in Dragon Age.

Still, leaving the council to die in ME1 makes things even worse for everyone, the new council won't even see Shepard (propably because BW didn't wan't to create new council members for a one time meeting). Interesting see how the fate of the council affects Mass Effect 3.

After ME2 there isn't any proof of the Reapers either, so I doubt the council will do anything until Harbinger vaporizes their asses.

[PingoBlack]

ToJKa1 wrote...
Still, leaving the council to die in ME1 makes things even worse for everyone, the new council won't even see Shepard (propably because BW didn't wan't to create new council members for a one time meeting). Interesting see how the fate of the council affects Mass Effect 3.

With human council also the turians grow more militant and start an arms race with human fleet ... a cold war within council space.

[Adon 9]

I'm kind of feeling the same way as many here in calling the Council morons for refusing to see what's going on. They are very much playing ostrich... sticking their heads in the ground and pretending that Shepard's words have no real merit rather than face a very scary truth.



That said, as frustrating as it is to deal with them I don't regret saving them. That act gained humanity a LOT of goodwill that they lacked before, and it also demonstrates that human interests, while important, shouldn't override the interests of all other species. We're not alone, and it's up to us to be good neighbors, so to speak. Acting like 'ugly Americans' writ large is not a good way to do that.

[YooperLaw]

I just find it interesting that of all the "governments" in the galaxy, the only two which seem to acknowledge the Reaper threat are the Quarians and Geth. Maybe the Asari, Salarian, and Turian governments know but the galaxy-wide government refuses? Kind of like all the American states knowing that something is brewing but the federal government keeps trying to downplay it. I have a feeling that ME3 will clear a lot of things up.

[PSUHammer]

Sapienti wrote...

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...

I have to agree with the OP, that
bugged me. Obviously the writers are cool talented dudes but I don't
think that part makes any sense... like doesn't Shepard have a Polaroid
camera or something? Sensor logs on the normandy? Carbon-dating on the
wreckage of Sovereign? I thought it was kind of laughable.

A polaroid would be as good as Sovereign himself crashing down on the tower. I don't know what you'd be able to show with sensor logs. And I doubt you can carbon date anything in the vacuum of space lol. Read my previous posts to get a hold on the council and maybe even learn a thing or two about politics.

Wow...your an azzhole...  

Modifié par Hammer6767, 13 février 2010 - 02:46 .

[Daewan]

They are career politicians. Being obstructive and dense is their job. It would have been completely unrealistic for them to actually listen to Shepard.

"Hi, I'm the new guy from the new race that came to space about one generation ago. Even though we have no intergalactic experience, I've somehow become aware of a huge crisis that threatens the entire galaxy! Also, no one else has ever heard of it or seen it. I'm not crazy, by the way. Just really strong-willed. That's why the vision from that damaged beacon that told me all this stuff didn't destroy my mind. Why are you looking at me like that?"

[HardLuckRabbit]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

I think the Council spent so long convincing the rest of the galaxy that Sovereign was a geth ship that they eventually convinced themselves it was true.

The investigation by Citadel Security turned up no evidence to support your claims of "Reapers". :innocent:

[WilliamShatner]

Although I dislike referring to out of game sources as backup; if you read ME:R the council are shown as three of the most intelligent people in the galaxy and very even handed. Their handling of politics are shown to be far beyond that of humanity's so comparing them to current 21st century human politicans like many people in this thread have done is pretty void.



You don't achieve something as prosperous as council space by being the finger-in-ears idiots that the council are in ME2.

[WilliamShatner]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

I understood the need to keep the Council out of the picture. Even so, I think to have them actively doubt the Reapers' existence was the wrong way to go about it.  Firstly, it severely undermined the previous game's ending.  Secondly, it failed to take into account the fact that Shepard was only able to locate Ilos - and save the Council - through his visions: visions that depicted the Reapers.

A deluded Council, I could swallow... but their delusion, if any, should have been that the Reaper threat was effectively over rather than that the Reapers didn't exist.

Something along these lines would have worked fine:

Council: You have already stopped the Reapers, Commander.  Our investigations in the wake of your absence have been concluded. The Reapers are trapped in Darkspace.  As long as the Central Control Unit is protected, we are secure.

Shepard: You're wrong! The Collectors are working with the Reapers! They're up to something! 

Council: Or is that simply what Cerberus wants you to think?

Blah, blah, blah. Leading to the same effective "We'll reinstate your Spectre status, but we're not supporting you beyond that" end.

It would have been far more believable for the Council to believe you, and see your working for Cerberus as an oppurtunity.  Have them give you back full Spectre status and send you on their own mission based on your new "arrangement" having you collect information about Cerberus and sending it back to the Council.  Throw in a few N7 missions where you infiltrate some Cerberus bases, collect key data to send back to the Council, and if Miranda asks what you are doing, Renegade interrupt with a Falcon Punch.  In ME3 they could tie it into a subplot of the Council/Alliance -vs- whatever is left of Cerberus.

That way the Council remains believable and credible from a story stand point but the game still forces you into a working with the devil situation. And that took all of 5 seconds for me to come up with.

That's an excellent scenario I would have enjoyed playing and would have actually helped me swallow the working for Cerberus tripe.

You should be working at BioWare.

[TheShady]

Besides the silly plot-device that reeks of inconsistency, the whole council doesn't make sense to me, unless I did not read the corresponding codex entry (which I never do, codex entries are a bad way to present lore...).



How is it elected? How come there's only 3 (4) people in there? How are decisions made (a nod? seriously?)? Etc.



Considering that pretty much every single republic on earth has a parliament with probably at least 100 members, 3 or 4 guys ruling an entire galaxy with nods seems a little unreasonable. 1 representative for an entire species sounds a little like dictatorship to me.

There's small countries of... say... 8 million people who can't make any decisions because the different political parties / ideologies / cultures are blocking each other... The galaxy has a population of how many now?

[TheShady]

Nozybidaj wrote...

It would have been far more believable for the Council to believe you, and see your working for Cerberus as an oppurtunity.  Have them give you back full Spectre status and send you on their own mission based on your new "arrangement" having you collect information about Cerberus and sending it back to the Council.  Throw in a few N7 missions where you infiltrate some Cerberus bases, collect key data to send back to the Council, and if Miranda asks what you are doing, Renegade interrupt with a Falcon Punch.  In ME3 they could tie it into a subplot of the Council/Alliance -vs- whatever is left of Cerberus.

That way the Council remains believable and credible from a story stand point but the game still forces you into a working with the devil situation. And that took all of 5 seconds for me to come up with.

Indeed, very good! It would even work with your former teammates not following you, as you can't tell them you're not really working for Cerberus  as to not risk the undercover-mission.

Of course, renegades or other Shepards should get the chance to choose Cerberus over the council. My renegade Shepards likes to enslave aliens...............