329 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulicus]

Nozybidaj wrote...

 He doesn't even confront TIM about obvious things like Akuze, Kahoku, all the ME1 tragedies, or what they did to Jack.

Yeah. Huge oversights, all. The most he can do is bring up Jack and the Rachi/Thorian Creepers/Husks with Miranda... and that just makes the oversights even more apparant.

Why not bring up Kahoku? Why not mention the colony Cerberus turned into a husk-filled wasteland? Why, oh, why, oh, why, oh, why, wouldn't a Sole Survivor (or even just a Shep who met Toombs) bring up Akuze? (Context: When I heard Shepard would be working for Cerberus in ME2, the "Akuze confrontation" was THE thing I was MOST looking forward to. )

I was hoping he might drop that bomb right at the end, if he was a sole survivor.

Instead of "Joker, cut this line"...

"My name is Commander Shepard. You killed my unit. Prepare to die."

Or something less Princess Bridesy, perhaps.

Even so, I think that sense of "omg what am I doing?" remains for the player, even if Shep-as-avatar rarely if ever expresses it.

Modifié par Ulicus, 13 février 2010 - 10:07 .

[Jax Sparrow]

You are working for Cerberus which everyone thinks is the antichrist.  But, if you save them they give you enough benefit of the doubt to reinstate your spectre status and hope you get out from under Cerberus's thumb.  Little to they know I am just taking Cerberus over... muaahahahah

The disbelief in Reapers is actually psychologically sound as others suggested... and as Anderson explains.  However, I expect this to change as you should have plenty of hard physical reaper/collector evidence to show them.  I hope they work with this in an expansion as you put a cap in that Turian Councilor's arse.

Sharn01 wrote...  Just more poorly written ME1 decisions carried over to ME2, like every thing else other then Wrex who actually made some sense....

You see that is the problem with everyone's thought process... you are assuming politicians use logic and reason, when history both ingame and outofgame shows they are lacking for the most part.  Hence, why you put Anderson in the Council to try to vaccinate them against insanity.

[Terraneaux]

Jax Sparrow wrote...


You see that is the problem with everyone's thought process... you are assuming politicians use logic and reason, when history both ingame and outofgame shows they are lacking for the most part.  Hence, why you put Anderson in the Council to try to vaccinate them against insanity.

I'm not buying the 'hurrdurr politishuns r dum' response.

[We Tigers]

I just replayed the end of ME1, and keep in mind that the Council never acknowledges the Reapers, even after you've defeated Sovereign.  The OP is mistaken as to what the Council says: they thank Shepard for repelling Saren, Sovereign, and the geth, but at no point do they indicate that they've changed their mind about the Reapers or what Sovereign was.  I don't think their continued rejection of the Reapers' existence in ME2 is an oversight at all; their notion that Sovereign was a geth ship under Saren's command is entirely consistent with ME1.  Add in two years passing with no one advocating Shepard's case against the Reapers, and this makes perfect sense.

That said, I do think Bioware missed an opportunity to confront Cerberus further about Kahoku and the experiments.  It was just a side quest, but it was a major one, and it could have helped really establish Shepard's uncertainty and conflict at being Cerberus' man, for players who want to go that route.

[dan107]

I didn't read the whole thread, so don't know if someone already mentioned this, but in response to the OP, it's not unheard of (to put it mildly) for politicians to refuse to acknowledge an inconvenient problem. Just look at global warming -- from a scientific perspective the issue has been settled for about a decade, the icecaps are melting even faster than anyone anticipated, all sorts of disastrous events are being predicted, and yet there is no shortage of politicians that will argue until they're blue in the face that the problem doesn't even exist.



Are they stupid? Insane? Dishonest? Well meaning, but ignorant? Your guess is as good as mine, but it's an undeniable fact that there are a great many people (some in high elected office) who will not acknowledge the problem until their house gets washed out into the ocean. So while the Council's denial of the Reapers is irrational, dangerous, and bordering on delusional, unfortunately it's not at all unrealistic.

[durasteel]

Politicians may not be dumb, but they are all convinced that the average citizen is a complete idiot. Sadly, there is little evidence to disprove their theories - electorates tend to believe what they're told, no matter how outrageous. Americans were, just to cite one example, quite ready to believe the "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth," and now completely fabricated smear campaigns are called "swiftboating" as a result.



It is likely that the Council members are individually unsure about the evidence for the reaper threat, but they are completely sure that to acknowledge it would bring about the downfall of galactic civilization. The Council can handle threats to the peace and stability of Council space, but they are not at all capable of responding to a threat to the entire galaxy. They probably are hoping that they can hold things together long enough for Shepard to solve the actual problem.

[Schneidend]

Politicians, amirite?

[Gunzwei]

We Tigers wrote...

I just replayed the end of ME1, and keep in mind that the Council never acknowledges the Reapers, even after you've defeated Sovereign.  The OP is mistaken as to what the Council says: they thank Shepard for repelling Saren, Sovereign, and the geth, but at no point do they indicate that they've changed their mind about the Reapers or what Sovereign was.  

The Asari council member thanks you for saving them and billions of people from the Reapers during the ME1 paragon ending. If you watch the ME1 paragon ending and then a clip of the council scene in ME2 they more or less contradict every statement they make between the two events.

[Eclesis]

Gunzwei wrote...

The Asari council member thanks you for saving them and billions of people from the Reapers during the ME1 paragon ending. If you watch the ME1 paragon ending and then a clip of the council scene in ME2 they more or less contradict every statement they make between the two events.

That and you find out that Vigil conveniently shut itself down on Ilos after the attack and apparently no information could be recovered from the Prothean Archives there (or even the handy Prothean hack disc you used to take over the relays), no conclusive data could be collected from Sovereign's wreckage despite the turians having enough of it to reverse-engineer a cannon from, there were no working cameras or recorders or anything that might've logged your final fight with Saren-Sovereign or the events on Virmire, etc... isn't it even brought up in Mordin's quest that he wrote a paper on Indoctrination? Maybe there is behind-the-scenes stuff going on here, but as it stands the entire thing feels contrived for the sole purpose of making you work with Cerberus.

[didymos1120]

Gunzwei wrote...


The Asari council member thanks you for saving them and billions of people from the Reapers during the ME1 paragon ending. If you watch the ME1 paragon ending and then a clip of the council scene in ME2 they more or less contradict every statement they make between the two events.

Watch. Again.  "Sovereign and the Geth".  Then another "Sovereign".  Not a word about Reapers or the word "Reaper" from the Council.  Whoever you pick will speechify about them a bit, but that's not the same thing.

[didymos1120]

Eclesis wrote...

Gunzwei wrote...

The Asari council member thanks you for saving them and billions of people from the Reapers during the ME1 paragon ending. If you watch the ME1 paragon ending and then a clip of the council scene in ME2 they more or less contradict every statement they make between the two events.

That and you find out that Vigil conveniently shut itself down on Ilos after the attack and apparently no information could be recovered from the Prothean Archives there (or even the handy Prothean hack disc you used to take over the relays), no conclusive data could be collected from Sovereign's wreckage despite the turians having enough of it to reverse-engineer a cannon from, there were no working cameras or recorders or anything that might've logged your final fight with Saren-Sovereign or the events on Virmire, etc... isn't it even brought up in Mordin's quest that he wrote a paper on Indoctrination? Maybe there is behind-the-scenes stuff going on here, but as it stands the entire thing feels contrived for the sole purpose of making you work with Cerberus.

It was dead obvious Vigil was just about done when it spoke to you.  Liara, if with you, will practically say outright "Last chance player.  He won't be appearing in the sequel".  The hack disc probably went bye-bye when a few tons of Reaper leg smashed into the tower and wrecked the whole control console you'd stuck it in.  As to Sovvy, he got blown the hell apart, from the center out.  I don't see much in the way of his data storage surviving that, assuming it'd even be recognized as that.  May have just looked like another random chunk of metal and wiring or whatever. Who the hell knows?  If he had organic goop, well, that was all ash and vapor, at best.  Hard to determine where the residue originated when so many others all over the Citadel ended up in more or less the same state.  Hell, could have been from whoever was on-board (doesn't matter if there actually was, just that there could have been. No way to know, really).  As we saw, though, the cannon were in the legs, and we know some held together, 'cause you see them, and most of one landed in the tower. Virmire: who cares?  The Council thought Saren was likely feeding you disinformation anyway.  A tape of him saying it wouldn't really help: "Oh good, a recording of Saren lying to you.  We repent, O mighty Shepard!"  They never doubted he said that any of that.  And your talk with Sovvy could have been more disinformation, only in VI form.  They told you that flat out in ME1.  Lastly, no one really doubted indoctrination existed.  Doesn't prove anything one way or the other about the Reapers' reality.  Ultimately, it's just a technology for messing with people's heads. Maybe it was Geth tech, maybe just some old alien artifact that's NOT also part of a sentient machine bent on galactic extermination. 

[LF1M_Tank]

Here's the FULL paragon ending





I just finished my "perfect" Shepard run last night so I remembered the line clearly. The one you linked is saving the council with a Renegade Shepard and that in turn offers a different ending. So yes, the council did very well acknowledge the Reapers. After finishing ME1 again, and then importing it to ME2, the poor writing with regards to the council (and I guess by extension most other consequences) is just that much more apparent.



Given a pure paragon ME1 ending, it is extremely hard to realistically believe the council's dismissal and attitude towards Shepard. Let's just remove the fact Shepard saved them and they're in his debt for now. Even without hard evidence of Sovereign's existence as a Reaper, throughout all of ME1's story, Shepard has managed to be right every time.



1. His claim Saren's gone rogue

2. Saren plans to attack the galaxy using something called the Conduit and Reapers (ended up being attacking Citadel)

3. The Conduit actually exists (the council dismisses its existence before you head to Ilos)



Once may be chance, twice coincidence, three times and its a pattern (I think that's how it goes). So yeah, anyone could connect the dots and if Shepard were to bring up a 4th claim and said the Reapers are real and coming, despite any hard evidence per se, chances are, they would believe him. Now we bring in factors of Shepard saving the council and the council seeing Sovereign and it's destructive power and difference from geth ships first hand, you can see how poor their treatment towards Shepard is.



And please, don't go saying its due to them being politicians. By that logic, human nations would have been stuffed ages ago (lets not go off topic with this either please, I understand that claim is entirely debatable but not the point of this thread). They govern thousands of planets and colonies and trillions of lives, of course they'll have some form of bureaucracy. They also have species who are much more experienced with the galaxy, and it may be wishful thinking, but you'd think they may have extra wisdom about them. All of this served well in ME1 and was fully justified. However, given the points before about Shepard's pattern of being right and saving them, one can may sort of see why some of us find the whole Council rejection of Reapers and Shepard hard to swallow.



There never was a doubt that Council having little involvement in ME2 was so Shepard works with Cerberus. However, when you look at it with those points, you can see how forced and weak the whole plot device is. I like ME2 a lot, and would agree it has excellent writing, but unfortunately, I found the excellent writing wasn't spread evenly throughout the game, the Council was one of the parts that didn't get equal treatment.

[Vanaer]

 Ah yes, 'Shepard'. The officer ranting about machine devils bent on harvesting all life in the galaxy and she being the only one having proof. We've dismissed that idiot.

[Kolos2]

Ok the whole Citadel Council was done badly , it doesnt make sense and the "rather leave it alone" made a huge gap in ME storyline.
I would prefere if the Council was bafled and without a clue how to fight the reapers, indicisive even, and limiting the info to avoid the general panic . during the time of ME2 .
But in the current ME 2 thy just sound very stopid , shallow and rather  unbelievable
Mac Walters failed at an key storyline here in i know hes gonna pull an cheep revelation in ME3 to sort it out, with a magical story wand

As for ME 1 Cerberus actions , i consider them as non present in ME2, Bioware has hinted that past gones are just that

Modifié par Kolos2, 28 février 2010 - 11:26 .

[Srau]

What's done in ME2 is done so please tell Mac Walters to avoid such holes in ME3 because the game will end the trilogy and we are all expecting alot from it.

That would be very disappointing, seriously.

[superimposed]

Blameless77 wrote...

Their position isn't totally unreasonable from a detached perspective. No one knows anything about the Geth so it's possible that they pooled resources and built a massive flagship. Obviously the player (as Shepard) has a ton of inside information and any attempt to deny the Reaper threat seems insane to them.

I'm not saying the Council's treatment of Shepard is right, just that their position isn't totally untenable.

Essentially, it's that the only hard evidence was Shepard speaking to Harbinger, and the Prothean Beacons now destroyed.
They only saw one reaper, and that came with Saren and the Geth, Saren was a fusion of Organic and Synthetics, and working with the Geth, so it wouldn't be illogical to assume the Geth were capable of doing so, even on the scale of a large Warship.
Don't forget that they "Haven't been seen beyond the veil" in ME 1 before, at least not on this scale.

[Edrick1976]

I think the council members are all sleeper reaper agents, No one can be this stuped and blind....

[The Angry One]

Shepard: "Hey Anderson I've just come back from the Collector base with a ton of recordings and a Reaper schematic. Call up the Council, they have to believe me now."



Anderson: "Not now, come back in ME3."



Shepard: "#@%$!"

[Pandemonic IX]

It's a conspiracy!!!

[Mox Ruuga]

Never mind... That post was so good I quoted it twice...

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 28 février 2010 - 02:00 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Well... my guess is, that the writers had the emotional impact in mind: you, the hero, are being in charge, not the council. You're not a pawn, you are saving in spite of public opinion.

It's a method of enhancing the heroic experience for the player.



BUT they shouldn't have neglected logic as much as they did.



I always prefer good entertainment to strict logic and lore, but it shouldn't be too much in-your-face forced and contradictory. Because that kills the immersion.



It's the same with other main plot issues. Like the human reaper, Cerberus suddenly not being terrorists, heretic Geth (there's some discussion there, but i feel that they pulled the "good" Geth out of a magical hat).

[Mox Ruuga]

SimonTheFrog wrote...


It's the same with other main plot issues. Like the human reaper, Cerberus suddenly not being terrorists, heretic Geth (there's some discussion there, but i feel that they pulled the "good" Geth out of a magical hat).

Oh yes.

Weren't the "bad" geth operating with Saren, having left to join him and Sovereign?

So why did the "good" geth turn humans into husks as a warning to "organics"? Or were there "bad" geth left behind in the Perseus Veil, after all?

[Jimbe2693]

I don't really blame the council, from their perspective; i'd find it hard to believe in a race of sentient starships ready to destroy all life in the galaxy.



Anyway, the Turian councilor is so badass he can convince anyone they don't exist.

[Zhijn]

The Angry One wrote...

Shepard: "Hey Anderson I've just come back from the Collector base with a ton of recordings and a Reaper schematic. Call up the Council, they have to believe me now."

Anderson: "Not now, come back in ME3."

Shepard: "#@%$!"

Haha brilliant.

First thing i did after the suicide mission was a trip to the counsil. I got nothing!. xD

[lost lupus]

i dont know what any of you are talking about
the old council is dead....... (not worth alliance lives closing the com was the mother of all middle fingers we had bigger fish to fry)

the new council
A) dont trust me
are trying to fix the relationship with other race's as they got offended at my lack of caring about "their" council
C) are trying to cover up the reaper threat because they do not know how to handle it
ontop of all the repairs to the citidel/ geth hunting and simmering tension between races (eg the turians and their dreadnoughts) its prefectly reasonable that they hide the reaper threat so no panic is caused
D) i work with cerebrus........... they believe cerebrus are terrorists

anderson has lost favor with the new council as he backed me about the reapers (good bloke) and although he can not help me he gave me back my spector statis "they wont like it but they can not do anything about it"

further more as i work with cerebrus the alliance wont help (pricks cerebrus saved the god damn citidel) mainly because their pissed about the whole killing marines thingo

theirs nothing weak about the plot just means you should not have been such a lilly livered push over bowing before the council (especialy that turian)

sacrifcing thousands of humans lives for 3 self absorbed pricks

Ding Dong the councils dead they didnt see the sky falling on their heads

now i expect the new council to publicly welcome their favorite (reporter punching) human spector
back into the fold and thank me for distorying the collectors further more the familys of human colonies should be given compensation for their failure to head warnings that it was more then just pirates 
they must mobilse the fleets to fend off the reaper invasion......... and any anti human bull must be quickly and forcefully shut down

also alliance goverments heads and alliance military's top brass must resign for being incompentant

above all i want medals lots of medals and a my own statue in the council's tower

Modifié par lost lupus, 28 février 2010 - 02:52 .