329 réponses à ce sujet

[Ooga600]

if you saved the council and speak with them in ME2, Anderson reminds you that no one but you and your squad spoke with Saren, Sovereign, or Vigil on Ilos. So to everyone else in the galaxy, the attack seemed like a geth invasion (led by Saren)

[Ooga600]

wow thats like the third double post today

Modifié par Ooga600, 12 février 2010 - 11:49 .

[CmdrFenix83]

ckriley wrote...

Or just ask the Council what I said above.  Why would the Geth suddenly follow Saren and attack the Citadel?  What reason or motivation would they have.  Their only real concern are the quarians.

The Council themselves answered this question.  They believe Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper just as they believe he convinced Shepard.  They believe Shepard believes in the Reapers, but their only evidence is a bunch of scrap metal that equals less than half of what Sovereign was in all.

[GnusmasTHX]

Sapienti wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

I think the fact that the giant ship was leaps and bounds more advanced, and like someone said, easily determined to be older, solidifies that the threat is real for me.

If not. Try when it attached to the Citadel Tower and sent tubes into the structure and started emitting a red energy. Tubes that went somewhere. Hidden places along the structure, specifically tailored to match the Reaper.

Not to mention other evidence. Prothean ruins, data discs and archives, as well as millions of year old dragon's teeth, the same technology in Sovereign, the same age probably... Discovered ALL over the galaxy.

It's really hard to believe that all of this evidence allegedly just disappeared, considering a giant chunk of it landed right in the Council's office.

It's about the equivalent of someone saying a stampede of horses is about to run over my house, and a second later, a horse flies through the window. I mean for God's sake... You would look out the window for more horses, right? The Council apparently doesn't. Would rather tell you it was an isolated incident, and was actually a squirrel, no less.

Well again all the things we find easily believably we only find so because we've got a different perspective on everything. The council doesn't know everything about the Geth. We don't even know everything about the Geth and we're playing the game. To them they can't determine that its "easily seen as older" because there is no way to even tell how old it would be. What are they going to do say "That design looks ancient" or something. Sure they may be able to find parts of him but they wouldn't understand them, no real way to date technology from space either. Its too ambiguous. They also don't know how advanced the Geth could really be. We do though because we play the game. To the council its just another synthetic.

As for prothean evidence, the beacon is the closest you'd get, and Shepard and Saren were really the only ones with those things. A more fitting analogy would be a a someone telling you a stampede of zebra are coming and then you hear hoofbeats while living in the middle of texas on a horse ranch. Why not think horses rather than zebra? Only thing that would change your mind would be hard evidence right? Sovereign was as good as the hoofbeat of a Reaper fleet as far as the council was concerned.

About the Protheans, I wasn't talking about any key moment specifically in the game. Liara was able to study Protheans and reach the same conclusion. Not to mention the entire planet of Ilos is still there. There HAS to be more evidence, similar to what Liara originally found.

You can easily tell the age of it through scientific testing. We can do it with almost anything today, ME2 is near 200 years in the future.

Also theres a drastic difference between anything the geth can currently field and Sovereign. Like bows and arrows to machine guns difference.

And the analogy fits perfectly, if anything I'd just change it to elephants. A warning of some destructive power, being somewhere it shouldn't be, and having a specimen land right on your lap and then Council ignores your warning that they were going to come. Instead they say "Yeah it came, but only one will come, and it wasn't an elephant, it was a squirrel (Smaller, lesser threat like geth.)". Any logical mind would probe the evidence to see if there's SOME truth to it, instead of dismiss you outright.

I'm looking at this entirely from a Council perspective, without any of the evidence gained from being Shepard in ME1, and the claim certainly isn't anywhere near sound, but it doesn't warrant total dismissal. Nor does Shepard deserve such blatant disrespect.

I mean, think about it, what was Sovereign doing?

If Saren wanted to kill the Council, Sovereign would've taken out the Destiny Ascension. Instead of doing some crazy-hockus-pokus magic with the Citadel tower.

Why bench their best player?

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 12:07 .

[ckriley]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Or just ask the Council what I said above.  Why would the Geth suddenly follow Saren and attack the Citadel?  What reason or motivation would they have.  Their only real concern are the quarians.

The Council themselves answered this question.  They believe Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper just as they believe he convinced Shepard.  They believe Shepard believes in the Reapers, but their only evidence is a bunch of scrap metal that equals less than half of what Sovereign was in all.

Which is inherently flawed.  They believed Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper even though they claim that it was the Geth themselves that built it.

Um...okie doke. 

[GnusmasTHX]

ckriley wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Or just ask the Council what I said above.  Why would the Geth suddenly follow Saren and attack the Citadel?  What reason or motivation would they have.  Their only real concern are the quarians.

The Council themselves answered this question.  They believe Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper just as they believe he convinced Shepard.  They believe Shepard believes in the Reapers, but their only evidence is a bunch of scrap metal that equals less than half of what Sovereign was in all.

Which is inherently flawed.  They believed Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper even though they claim that it was the Geth themselves that built it.

Um...okie doke. 

Hahah, nice catch.

[Offkorn]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The e-mail is from Chorban if you did his 'Scanning the Keepers' sidequest in the first game.  He's also referring to the age of the Keepers and not Sovereign.

No, that's a different one. There is one from him about the Keepers, and one from a different researcher who has specifically run tests on carbon-dating Sovereign.

Modifié par Offkorn, 13 février 2010 - 12:17 .

[Sapienti]

GnusmasTHX wrote...


About the Protheans, I wasn't talking about any key moment specifically in the game. Liara was able to study Protheans and reach the same conclusion. Not to mention the entire planet of Ilos is still there. There HAS to be more evidence, similar to what Liara originally found.

You can easily tell the age of it through scientific testing. We can do it with almost anything today, ME2 is near 200 years in the future.

Also theres a drastic difference between anything the geth can currently field and Sovereign. Like bows and arrows to machine guns difference.

And the analogy fits perfectly, if anything I'd just change it to elephants. A warning of some destructive power, being somewhere it shouldn't be, and having a specimen land right on your lap and then Council ignores your warning that they were going to come. Instead they say "Yeah it came, but only one will come, and it wasn't an elephant, it was a squirrel (Smaller, lesser threat like geth.)". Any logical mind would probe the evidence to see if there's SOME truth to it, instead of dismiss you outright.

I'm looking at this entirely from a Council perspective, without any of the evidence gained from being Shepard in ME1, and the claim certainly isn't anywhere near sound, but it doesn't warrant total dismissal. Nor does Shepard deserve such blatant disrespect.

I mean, think about it, what was Sovereign doing?

If Saren wanted to kill the Council, Sovereign would've taken out the Destiny Ascension. Instead of doing some crazy-hockus-pokus magic with the Citadel tower.

I'm sure there is evidence. They're just not inclined to go looking for it. As for dating. We can do carbon dating yes. To see how old things are. But that wouldn't work in the vacuum of space which is what I mean by it would be really ambiguous. Take things out of the familiar settings of Earth and rules are skewed and nobody can really know how to date anything without first doing controlled tests in all sorts of different situations. And since there are so many planets out there and so many star cluster there are a lot of variables. If the Reapers were planet based it'd be easier but they aren't so they couldn't really judge the age.

We can see that there is a clear difference between the Geth and the Reapers. The Reapers are clearly the most advanced thing in existence. But to the council, its just another machine. What may seem like advanced they could easily come to the conclusion that "the Geth are smarter than we though". Theres just nothing to cause them to think otherwise. If they had all the Geth in a jar then they could say with certainty that they know what the Geth are capable of.

And my point with the analogy was, from the council perspective, they have no solid reason to believe the threat they're being warned about is anything other than what they are familiar with. Hence the zebra horse comparison. Sovereign crashing into the tower was as good a forerunner as hearing the hoofbeats of a stampede. You're familiar with stampeding horses, why listen to your friend who tells you its zebra? It doesn't fit perfectly but the point is there. Its not a magnitude of the threat comparison but just familiarity vs reality. A synthetic crashes down. Why not say its Geth? What evidence do they have to believe its anything but. They would ignore the warning. I agree its stupid. They could at least look into it, and they probably would have if Shepard hadn't died and everything fell apart. When he comes back though he's got the Cerberus taint about him and they're even more put off than before.

It does not warrant total dismissal but thats what he got. At the end of Mass Effect 2 Shepard got that datapad with the information about Harbinger. He can take that to the council if he wants and finally silence all disagreement. If he feels like he needs to.

[GreenDragon37]

Sapienti wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...


About the Protheans, I wasn't talking about any key moment specifically in the game. Liara was able to study Protheans and reach the same conclusion. Not to mention the entire planet of Ilos is still there. There HAS to be more evidence, similar to what Liara originally found.

You can easily tell the age of it through scientific testing. We can do it with almost anything today, ME2 is near 200 years in the future.

Also theres a drastic difference between anything the geth can currently field and Sovereign. Like bows and arrows to machine guns difference.

And the analogy fits perfectly, if anything I'd just change it to elephants. A warning of some destructive power, being somewhere it shouldn't be, and having a specimen land right on your lap and then Council ignores your warning that they were going to come. Instead they say "Yeah it came, but only one will come, and it wasn't an elephant, it was a squirrel (Smaller, lesser threat like geth.)". Any logical mind would probe the evidence to see if there's SOME truth to it, instead of dismiss you outright.

I'm looking at this entirely from a Council perspective, without any of the evidence gained from being Shepard in ME1, and the claim certainly isn't anywhere near sound, but it doesn't warrant total dismissal. Nor does Shepard deserve such blatant disrespect.

I mean, think about it, what was Sovereign doing?

If Saren wanted to kill the Council, Sovereign would've taken out the Destiny Ascension. Instead of doing some crazy-hockus-pokus magic with the Citadel tower.

I'm sure there is evidence. They're just not inclined to go looking for it. As for dating. We can do carbon dating yes. To see how old things are. But that wouldn't work in the vacuum of space which is what I mean by it would be really ambiguous. Take things out of the familiar settings of Earth and rules are skewed and nobody can really know how to date anything without first doing controlled tests in all sorts of different situations. And since there are so many planets out there and so many star cluster there are a lot of variables. If the Reapers were planet based it'd be easier but they aren't so they couldn't really judge the age.

We can see that there is a clear difference between the Geth and the Reapers. The Reapers are clearly the most advanced thing in existence. But to the council, its just another machine. What may seem like advanced they could easily come to the conclusion that "the Geth are smarter than we though". Theres just nothing to cause them to think otherwise. If they had all the Geth in a jar then they could say with certainty that they know what the Geth are capable of.

And my point with the analogy was, from the council perspective, they have no solid reason to believe the threat they're being warned about is anything other than what they are familiar with. Hence the zebra horse comparison. Sovereign crashing into the tower was as good a forerunner as hearing the hoofbeats of a stampede. You're familiar with stampeding horses, why listen to your friend who tells you its zebra? It doesn't fit perfectly but the point is there. Its not a magnitude of the threat comparison but just familiarity vs reality. A synthetic crashes down. Why not say its Geth? What evidence do they have to believe its anything but. They would ignore the warning. I agree its stupid. They could at least look into it, and they probably would have if Shepard hadn't died and everything fell apart. When he comes back though he's got the Cerberus taint about him and they're even more put off than before.

It does not warrant total dismissal but thats what he got. At the end of Mass Effect 2 Shepard got that datapad with the information about Harbinger. He can take that to the council if he wants and finally silence all disagreement. If he feels like he needs to.

The Council are fools, but I was just thinkin' about that datapad. Finally, solid proof that we can present!

[GnusmasTHX]

Still doesn't account for Sovereign's actual actions during the battle.

He went straight for the Citadel tower when Saren already had control of the arms. If they wanted to destroy the Council, so to speak, Sovereign would've actually been attacking... Period. Instead he just mows through a turian cruiser like its nothing... Ignores the Destiny Ascension and the Citadel fleet, and just locks himself inside.

What does that accomplish?

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 12:25 .

[ckriley]

Sapienti wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...


About the Protheans, I wasn't talking about any key moment specifically in the game. Liara was able to study Protheans and reach the same conclusion. Not to mention the entire planet of Ilos is still there. There HAS to be more evidence, similar to what Liara originally found.

You can easily tell the age of it through scientific testing. We can do it with almost anything today, ME2 is near 200 years in the future.

Also theres a drastic difference between anything the geth can currently field and Sovereign. Like bows and arrows to machine guns difference.

And the analogy fits perfectly, if anything I'd just change it to elephants. A warning of some destructive power, being somewhere it shouldn't be, and having a specimen land right on your lap and then Council ignores your warning that they were going to come. Instead they say "Yeah it came, but only one will come, and it wasn't an elephant, it was a squirrel (Smaller, lesser threat like geth.)". Any logical mind would probe the evidence to see if there's SOME truth to it, instead of dismiss you outright.

I'm looking at this entirely from a Council perspective, without any of the evidence gained from being Shepard in ME1, and the claim certainly isn't anywhere near sound, but it doesn't warrant total dismissal. Nor does Shepard deserve such blatant disrespect.

I mean, think about it, what was Sovereign doing?

If Saren wanted to kill the Council, Sovereign would've taken out the Destiny Ascension. Instead of doing some crazy-hockus-pokus magic with the Citadel tower.

I'm sure there is evidence. They're just not inclined to go looking for it. As for dating. We can do carbon dating yes. To see how old things are. But that wouldn't work in the vacuum of space which is what I mean by it would be really ambiguous. Take things out of the familiar settings of Earth and rules are skewed and nobody can really know how to date anything without first doing controlled tests in all sorts of different situations. And since there are so many planets out there and so many star cluster there are a lot of variables. If the Reapers were planet based it'd be easier but they aren't so they couldn't really judge the age.

We can see that there is a clear difference between the Geth and the Reapers. The Reapers are clearly the most advanced thing in existence. But to the council, its just another machine. What may seem like advanced they could easily come to the conclusion that "the Geth are smarter than we though". Theres just nothing to cause them to think otherwise. If they had all the Geth in a jar then they could say with certainty that they know what the Geth are capable of.

And my point with the analogy was, from the council perspective, they have no solid reason to believe the threat they're being warned about is anything other than what they are familiar with. Hence the zebra horse comparison. Sovereign crashing into the tower was as good a forerunner as hearing the hoofbeats of a stampede. You're familiar with stampeding horses, why listen to your friend who tells you its zebra? It doesn't fit perfectly but the point is there. Its not a magnitude of the threat comparison but just familiarity vs reality. A synthetic crashes down. Why not say its Geth? What evidence do they have to believe its anything but. They would ignore the warning. I agree its stupid. They could at least look into it, and they probably would have if Shepard hadn't died and everything fell apart. When he comes back though he's got the Cerberus taint about him and they're even more put off than before.

It does not warrant total dismissal but thats what he got. At the end of Mass Effect 2 Shepard got that datapad with the information about Harbinger. He can take that to the council if he wants and finally silence all disagreement. If he feels like he needs to.

But again, the logic is so flawed.  Maybe it was just bad writing or I missed it completely in two playthroughs.  They claim Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper in the same way he convinced Shepard.  Yet at the same time, they claim the Geth built it.  Honestly, how does that work?  I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely confused and think I missed a piece of dialogue or something.

[Silver]

Guys, please... the Council will have to believe you once you lead a frickin' ARMADA of geth, quarian & krogan warships to fight the reapers (with the possibility of the Alliance joining you).

Sure, the Council discounts everything you say, and I was going to throw a hissy fit, but no one saw what your Char saw, and that puts you into the uncomfortable place of being ALONE with that knowledge (if you put Anderson and your team out of the picture for a while).

[GnusmasTHX]

One things for sure, those particular Council members won't be in any leadership position come the end of ME3.

[Thomas_R_Roy]

I have to agree with the OP, that bugged me. Obviously the writers are cool talented dudes but I don't think that part makes any sense... like doesn't Shepard have a Polaroid camera or something? Sensor logs on the normandy? Carbon-dating on the wreckage of Sovereign? I thought it was kind of laughable.

And as for the theories that the council does know and is covering it up... sure, that's possible, but that makes them either stupid or evil, and then shouldn't Shepard sorta see that? As it is, Shepard looks stupid for accepting it.

Modifié par Thomas_R_Roy, 13 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Heartlocker wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

One things for sure, those particular Council members won't be in any leadership position come the end of ME3.

Ooooh yes~..I am not saving their asses anymore. I warned them many times, and always discarded me. This time, feel the burn and be replaced with another set of Council Members to publicly swear they will pay heed to my words whenever I require them to do when the Galaxy is at stake.

I got more allies than they ever have, I don't care anymore..I be a tyrant. D<

Hail Emperor Shepard.

That would be awesome.

I really want to just beat the **** out of those Councillors yelling, "NOW DO YOU BELIEVE ME, HUH?!"

[Sapienti]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Still doesn't account for Sovereign's actual actions during the battle.

He went straight for the Citadel tower when Saren already had control of the arms. If they wanted to destroy the Council, so to speak, Sovereign would've actually been attacking... Period. Instead he just mows through a turian cruiser like its nothing... Ignores the Destiny Ascension and the Citadel fleet, and just locks himself inside.

What does that accomplish?

Yea what does it accomplish? From the outside looking in thats exactly what you'd have to ask yourself. Why would they do that? That isn't enough to sway anyone though. They'd probably rationalize it by saying "those darn Geth are so unknowable". At best you can put that into a speech to the council about why they should believe you but it alone can't carry much weight.

ckriley wrote...


But again, the logic is so flawed. 
Maybe it was just bad writing or I missed it completely in two
playthroughs.  They claim Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a
Reaper in the same way he convinced Shepard.  Yet at the same time,
they claim the Geth built it.  Honestly, how does that work?  I'm not
being snarky, I'm genuinely confused and think I missed a piece of
dialogue or something.

I agree their logic is flawed. Not bad writing flawed though, just stupid politician flawed. They say that if this Sovereign is real then Saren convinced the Geth that it was so and thats why they were working for him. Saying Saren is very persuasive. Then, after all that, they decide that Shepard was wrong about Sovereign. That Sovereign was a Geth creation the whole time. That only means they have to reasses why Saren was working with Geth if they are going to go back over their past actions and reasonings. Its not like they said "Saren convinced the Geth their creation was a Reaper". Its "We thought Saren played the Geth, but Shepard played us, this is no Reaper the Geth built" or something to that effect. I'm not trying to say the council is even right. Just saying that it isn't bad writing. They're just a very well made obstacle in Shepard's path.

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...

I have to agree with the OP, that
bugged me. Obviously the writers are cool talented dudes but I don't
think that part makes any sense... like doesn't Shepard have a Polaroid
camera or something? Sensor logs on the normandy? Carbon-dating on the
wreckage of Sovereign? I thought it was kind of laughable.

A polaroid would be as good as Sovereign himself crashing down on the tower. I don't know what you'd be able to show with sensor logs. And I doubt you can carbon date anything in the vacuum of space lol. Read my previous posts to get a hold on the council and maybe even learn a thing or two about politics.

Modifié par Sapienti, 13 février 2010 - 12:41 .

[Silver]

I'm not going to save them either, even tho I can partly understand them...

[Chilly Breeze]

going back to the OP

This was something that bugged me about the game. It seemed like a bit of a cop out to get the council out of the way for a while so they had an excuse to not write them into the story and complicate it a bit. I have always thought (and still do) that Bioware's writers are among the best I've seen in any game, but I was pretty disappointed with the story in this one(what's there is good, but there just wasn't enough of it).

Modifié par Chilly Breeze, 13 février 2010 - 12:43 .

[BobbyTheI]

Just to point out something that kinda bugs me, and I've seen it used wrong in other places, too.

"Carbon dating" is only usable on ORGANIC tissue.  A Reaper, I would assume, is metal and circuitry.  Even if there is organic tissue, however, carbon dating can only be used up to the point where the organic tissue DIED, as in stopped taking in carbon.  All you'd find out from using carbon dating on Sovereign would be to find out that he died, yeah, a few weeks ago.

Granted, I'm sure there's probably some techno-babbly thing that can determine the age of electronics or something, but still... carbon dating doesn't work like that.

(The one that really annoyed me was when an MST3K movie had a scientist determine that a BRONZE STATUE was from THE FUTURE using carbon dating.  So many things wrong with that.) 

[Realmjumper]

Pfft screw the council. Cerberus brought me (Sheppard) back to life, I returned the favor by giving them the space station and we're gonna blow the Reapers a new bum hole.

[GnusmasTHX]

For reals. If they don't believe at the start of ME3, I'm just going to address the leaders of their armies. If they don't believe me... I'll show up with a giant rachni, krogan, and possibly geth and quarian army behind me.



After I show them up on live.. Holonet, they'll have no choice but to resign out of humiliation.



Maybe you can convince each Council race without convincing the Council. Like appealing to the turian heirarchy in person. Would make for a good excuse to visit some Homeworlds.

[TheBestClass]

Wow, thanks for adding a genuine, non-biased opinion Thomas_R_Roy!

I now have a great deal of respect for you, though it's a pretty meaningless reward.



Also, why don't the writers ever post here?