Aller au contenu

Photo

Did the council go brain dead or just Devs?


329 réponses à ce sujet

#101
marshalleck

marshalleck
  • Members
  • 15 645 messages

TheBestclass wrote...

Wow, thanks for adding a genuine, non-biased opinion Thomas_R_Roy!
I now have a great deal of respect for you, though it's a pretty meaningless reward.

Also, why don't the writers ever post here?


They used to post in the forum topics. I suspect it has to do with a general...decline...in thread quality. Best to just stay out of whine threads, you know?

The codex entry about geth being a "ground up" model of AI is derived from a post written in a discussion of the quarian-geth conflict from March of 2009.

#102
ScotGaymer

ScotGaymer
  • Members
  • 1 983 messages

TheBestclass wrote...

Wow, thanks for adding a genuine, non-biased opinion Thomas_R_Roy!
I now have a great deal of respect for you, though it's a pretty meaningless reward.

Also, why don't the writers ever post here?



Um.

Didnt David Gaider write this game and the associated novels? And doesnt he post on these forums quite a lot?

Unless im seeing things...

#103
smudboy

smudboy
  • Members
  • 3 058 messages
Even if they couldn't juice up Vigil's batteries, how about Shepard's brain?

I always wanted the Asari counselor to scan Shepard's mind. See how much her brain can take all that Prothean genocidal beacon data...

Modifié par smudboy, 13 février 2010 - 01:03 .


#104
marshalleck

marshalleck
  • Members
  • 15 645 messages

FitScotGaymer wrote...

TheBestclass wrote...

Wow, thanks for adding a genuine, non-biased opinion Thomas_R_Roy!
I now have a great deal of respect for you, though it's a pretty meaningless reward.

Also, why don't the writers ever post here?



Um.

Didnt David Gaider write this game and the associated novels? And doesnt he post on these forums quite a lot?

Unless im seeing things...


David gaider wrote for Dragon Age, not ME2

#105
Wynne

Wynne
  • Members
  • 1 612 messages

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

You forget that the Council was always like this throughout 90% of ME1. They ignored Shepard, nay-sayed him/her and refused to listen at all. They're politicians, so don't you think it's possible that what you saw at the end of ME1 was lip-service? I think it was meant to placate Shepard and humanity in general. If you recall, at the beginning of ME2 the Alliance has basically sent the Normandy out to the boonies to eliminate geth stragglers. They're ignoring the Reapers, and they want to hide Shepard away too. The behavior of the Council seems comparable to that of the average slimy politician as far as I'm concerned. It seems realistic to me and is not bad story wrting.

Totally.  The Council was so ridiculous in the first game that I never considered wasting resources on them when it might mean the end of the universe. I just felt there had to be better examples of their species than those three ignorant bastards. The way they were written made me compare them to real life politicians and hate their guts for being the worst example of how they can be.

The Council doesn't want to believe something so horrific and apocalyptic as the Reapers, so they dismiss it all as a Cthulhu story, a superstition. They rationalize it all away until you can find actual incontrovertible evidence that there are more creatures like Sovereign out there.

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...

I have to agree with the OP, that
bugged me. Obviously the writers are cool talented dudes but I don't
think that part makes any sense... like doesn't Shepard have a Polaroid
camera or something? Sensor logs on the normandy? Carbon-dating on the
wreckage of Sovereign? I thought it was kind of laughable.

And
as for the theories that the council does know and is covering it up...
sure, that's possible, but that makes them either stupid or evil, and
then shouldn't Shepard sorta see that? As it is, Shepard looks stupid
for accepting it.

Bioware's environment should be such that you can tell them this and they listen to you. It just makes for better games.

Skeptics on the team make a writer ask himself or herself the hard questions, which leads to explanations, which make the audience feel more drawn into the world. When you hear a character asking, "Why isn't there any evidence in our high-tech age?" and somebody answers, "because the Reapers have software that scrambles all sensors and screws all detection," or something remotely plausible, then you feel like you're in a world where the characters are as intelligent as you, rather than banging your head against the wall because something doesn't make sense. It makes the fiction better.

For example, I have trouble understanding why the future can cure DEATH for Shepard, and implant bone and skin weaves to make every part of her body that much stronger, but it can't seem to cure Joker's brittle bones. That's a WTF I am still having after two games. I can understand the Thane thing because it only affects drell and it's being cured, just not fast enough... but brittle bones? There's nothing they can do to make his bones stronger, just Shepard's? Come ON. That's not working for me. That's a double standard, future, and I don't like it. I approve of there being real problems and disease still in the ME world, but all he's got is a case of weak bones. If there's a solid reason why that can't be cured, then I want to hear it explained to me. Lampshading soothes many ills.

I don't think the Council is really stupid or evil if they're covering it up, though. Well, to be fair, I think they're stupid and evil, but not because of this. Wanting to keep the public from panicking and throwing the stock market and colonization and all of that into an uproar... that's a politician's job, keeping stability. So either they know and are covering it up because they think the threat ended with Sovereign and the public knowing more would bring needless panic as bad as any invasion, or they are rationalizing it away because reality just couldn't be that scary.

#106
Nozybidaj

Nozybidaj
  • Members
  • 3 487 messages

Wynne wrote...


I don't think the Council is really stupid or evil if they're covering it up, though. Well, to be fair, I think they're stupid and evil, but not because of this. Wanting to keep the public from panicking and throwing the stock market and colonization and all of that into an uproar... that's a politician's job, keeping stability. So either they know and are covering it up because they think the threat ended with Sovereign and the public knowing more would bring needless panic as bad as any invasion, or they are rationalizing it away because reality just couldn't be that scary.


As a politician it would totally make sense to cover it up to the general public, the masses.  It doesn't make sense to be willfully stupid when you are talking to the man responsible for defeating the reaper.

#107
apk117

apk117
  • Members
  • 153 messages
"Ah yes, the 'Reapers.'" This was reason enough to go back and see the Council slaughtered in ME1 for me.

F*** that guy.

Modifié par apk117, 13 février 2010 - 01:19 .


#108
Nightwriter

Nightwriter
  • Members
  • 9 800 messages
Oh, cool, someone from Bioware was on here!

Damn, but I forgot to ask him why this site logs me off like every 30 seconds. IRRITATING. For realz.

#109
Arijharn

Arijharn
  • Members
  • 2 850 messages
Even if the council's motivations for dismissing the Reaper invasion is due to fear of inciting galactic panic (which quite frankly, is a good decision to make) then even still the council should be willing to provide more than just the 'token' support of Shepard by re-instating him as a Spectre, even if it was just credit transfer for example.



The council has a lot of resources behind them (although certainly not infinite) so I can not believe they are not able to organise support 'behind closed doors.' At the very least, Shephard deserves more than a dismissal, because even if he was only made a Spectre to respect the System's Alliance growing political clout in galactic politics (i.e., not beecause they though Cmdr. Shephard was necessarily qualified for the job), he still managed to prevent a geth incursion on the citadel in the Council's eyes.

#110
Nightwriter

Nightwriter
  • Members
  • 9 800 messages
You know, in the end, I really might have accepted their denial of the Reapers, if they hadn’t been so damn CONDESCENDING about it.



The way the turian councilor makes those quotation marks with his fingers, the way the others talk about Shepard’s “fragile mental state”… they weren’t just stupid, they were rude on top of stupid. So much worse.

#111
Dinkamus_Littlelog

Dinkamus_Littlelog
  • Members
  • 1 450 messages
Yeah, glad to see this criticised.



In ME1 it was understandable. It gave Shepard the opportunity to be the maverick saviour of the galaxy, and show those pencil pushers in city hall how to get things done.



In ME2 its beating a dead horse for the sake of grimdark in the second act.....

#112
Thomas_R_Roy

Thomas_R_Roy
  • BioWare Employees
  • 25 messages
Wynne:

Actually I did have a discussion with the writer (Mac Walters) about this topic. And he explained his view, and ultimately decided that he preferred leaving it the same. And that's his job, as a writer, to pick what he thinks is best, so I don't have any problem with it.



And so I definitely am not implying the writers don't listen! They definitely do.



As for the Council being evil or stupid - Udina is maliciously stupid, and that's clearly portrayed, but if that's true of the Council also, its not portrayed strongly enough. I have a tendency to guess that the rulers of a successful peaceful galaxy are probably reasonably intelligent and good.



As for some of the cynicism of politicians, I don't buy it. Politicians aren't all bad. Hell, I've known some.



Oh yeah and to the guy that said I could learn a bit of politics from his post - you know nothing about my level of education. And what you wrote is pretty flimsy. I don't think you've done a very good job of teaching "politics." I learned more in PolySci 101.

#113
Nozybidaj

Nozybidaj
  • Members
  • 3 487 messages

Nightwriter wrote...

You know, in the end, I really might have accepted their denial of the Reapers, if they hadn’t been so damn CONDESCENDING about it.

The way the turian councilor makes those quotation marks with his fingers, the way the others talk about Shepard’s “fragile mental state”… they weren’t just stupid, they were rude on top of stupid. So much worse.


Agreed.  I get they were trying to make you "not like them" so you would more readily accept the ingame plot of working for Cerberus, but in ME1 you weren't really supposed to like them either.  The difference is in ME1 they were very subtle about.  I frackin hated that Turian in ME1 because of the fact that he was so condescending without ever being outright uncouth about it.  In ME2 though he is just flatly outright rude and was more comical than actually drawing any emotion out of me.  That is actually a good example of the subtleties of the writing that was lost from ME1 to ME2.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 13 février 2010 - 01:43 .


#114
Ulicus

Ulicus
  • Members
  • 2 233 messages
I think this scene would have been instantly redeemed had it also been the one and only time Shepard got to drop the F-bomb.

#115
marshalleck

marshalleck
  • Members
  • 15 645 messages

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

In ME2 its beating a dead horse for the sake of grimdark in the second act.....


Please, enlighten me as to how turian "air quotes" is grimdark?

It's worth criticizing, sure, especially the point about how it's apparently impossible to date the materials Sovereign was constructed of, or the thought just never occurred to anyone. Moaning about grimdarkness is asinine though.

#116
Acero Azul

Acero Azul
  • Members
  • 367 messages
thats why i murdered them in ME1

#117
Dinkamus_Littlelog

Dinkamus_Littlelog
  • Members
  • 1 450 messages

marshalleck wrote...

Please, enlighten me as to how turian "air quotes" is grimdark?

It's worth criticizing, sure, especially the point about how it's apparently impossible to date the materials Sovereign was constructed of, or the thought just never occurred to anyone. Moaning about grimdarkness is asinine though.


Ignoring the fact that its another ham fisted attempt to say "Shepard is alone and only cerberus is getting things done" is asinine. Its the same thing with Ash/Kai, and if you dont romance them, how its impossible to get them to show almost any sympathy or understanding towards Shepards plight. Its all just "HOW COULD YOU WORK FOR CERBERUS!?"

ME2 could have gone about this with a bit more tact and sublety, but instead it opted for "most of the galaxy is almost intentionally sticking their heads in the sand".

I actually felt it sadly cheapened ME1 a little.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 13 février 2010 - 01:46 .


#118
Fulgrim88

Fulgrim88
  • Members
  • 1 585 messages

Wynne wrote...
Bioware's environment should be such that you can tell them this and they listen to you. It just makes for better games.

Skeptics on the team make a writer ask himself or herself the hard questions, which leads to explanations, which make the audience feel more drawn into the world. When you hear a character asking, "Why isn't there any evidence in our high-tech age?" and somebody answers, "because the Reapers have software that scrambles all sensors and screws all detection," or something remotely plausible, then you feel like you're in a world where the characters are as intelligent as you, rather than banging your head against the wall because something doesn't make sense. It makes the fiction better.

It's nice to have some insight in how some Biowarians themselves see it. Now i don't know which Team he's on and if theres even a chance to talk to the responsible writers (there are about 500 people working for Bioware on...3? locations) but as long as BW employees are reading this, the chances of having some impact increase.

For example, I have trouble understanding why the future can cure DEATH for Shepard, and implant bone and skin weaves to make every part of her body that much stronger, but it can't seem to cure Joker's brittle bones. That's a WTF I am still having after two games. I can understand the Thane thing because it only affects drell and it's being cured, just not fast enough... but brittle bones? There's nothing they can do to make his bones stronger, just Shepard's? Come ON. That's not working for me. That's a double standard, future, and I don't like it. I approve of there being real problems and disease still in the ME world, but all he's got is a case of weak bones. If there's a solid reason why that can't be cured, then I want to hear it explained to me. Lampshading soothes many ills.

Well, i once had a series of big operations as a kid and was confined to rehabilitation for a while. Met a few kids there, also one girl with brittle bones. Long Story short, she was not remotely able to do anything Joker does. She was strapped to a special rollerbed most of the time and walking or even falling was out of the question.
It might be quite possible that they already did a lot to ease his situation, but just can't get past a certain point.

That's just speculation in favor of the writers though. There are weaker forms of brittle bones after all. He might as well have one of those and my point would be invalid

#119
Computron2000

Computron2000
  • Members
  • 4 983 messages
Anderson said it best. Its nightmare stuff. Would *you* be willing to accept it if someone told you that in the 1 maybe 2 years, everything would be gone due to like multiple "Deep impact" style events? Nothing you could do, all nukes failed, all human attempts to solve the situation failed. No where to run. Even if you suurvived immediate annihilation, nothing to eat, nothing to drink, any other human you meet could be a ghost/zombie/terminator/etc. All attempts to ride out the crisis through spacefaring, ocean diving, drilling towards the planet's core etc failed.



The undefined timeline plus the total destruction scenerio means a lot of people will probably use self delusion as a pschological defense. A more common example would be people who tell you that they can quit alchol, drugs or smoking anytime. Delusional and they don't accept that they have a problem. Same with the Council

#120
MassEffect762

MassEffect762
  • Members
  • 2 193 messages
It's just the devs dude, they didn't know what the heck to do with ME2s story.(I'll bet)

That's why ME2 feels like a side-story, bioware is saving the "good stuff" for last.(ME3)

#121
marshalleck

marshalleck
  • Members
  • 15 645 messages

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Please, enlighten me as to how turian "air quotes" is grimdark?

It's worth criticizing, sure, especially the point about how it's apparently impossible to date the materials Sovereign was constructed of, or the thought just never occurred to anyone. Moaning about grimdarkness is asinine though.


Ignoring the fact that its another ham fisted attempt to say "Shepard is alone and only cerberus is getting things done" is asinine. Its the same thing with Ash/Kai, and if you dont romance them, how its impossible to get them to show almost any sympathy or understanding towards Shepards plight. Its all just "HOW COULD YOU WORK FOR CERBERUS!?"

ME2 could have gone about this with a bit more tact and sublety, but instead it opted for "most of the galaxy is almost intentionally sticking their heads in the sand".

I actually felt it sadly cheapened ME1 a little.


Yes, but of all the valid criticisms of this particular plot point, you picked the most retarded way to attack it. Might as well tell us how bad the characters of ME2 are, based on how bad they are. :D

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 février 2010 - 01:51 .


#122
Nozybidaj

Nozybidaj
  • Members
  • 3 487 messages

marshalleck wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Please, enlighten me as to how turian "air quotes" is grimdark?

It's worth criticizing, sure, especially the point about how it's apparently impossible to date the materials Sovereign was constructed of, or the thought just never occurred to anyone. Moaning about grimdarkness is asinine though.


Ignoring the fact that its another ham fisted attempt to say "Shepard is alone and only cerberus is getting things done" is asinine. Its the same thing with Ash/Kai, and if you dont romance them, how its impossible to get them to show almost any sympathy or understanding towards Shepards plight. Its all just "HOW COULD YOU WORK FOR CERBERUS!?"

ME2 could have gone about this with a bit more tact and sublety, but instead it opted for "most of the galaxy is almost intentionally sticking their heads in the sand".

I actually felt it sadly cheapened ME1 a little.


Yes, but of all the valid criticisms of this particular plot point, you picked the most retarded way to attack it. Might as well tell us how bad the characters of ME2 are, based on how bad they are. :D


At least you are willing to admit how bad they are. ;)

#123
marshalleck

marshalleck
  • Members
  • 15 645 messages
Point is it's not actually saying anything.

#124
Wraith_3

Wraith_3
  • Members
  • 190 messages
I think the Council is the equivalent of the U.N. The U.N. looks the other way on lots of things so they don't have to act. They wouldn't call what was happening in Africa genocide so they wouldn't have to stop it. Now they are ignoring the fact that Iran is trying to get nukes. They don't do their jobs and then someone has to step in and clean up the crap storm that could have been stopped. So I thought it was pretty realistic.

#125
BobbyTheI

BobbyTheI
  • Members
  • 1 322 messages
I don't know, I can see where some people are coming from, but at the same time, most of the arguments about this seem to boil down to "Well, they should just trust me, because I'm the hero, and I'm right!"

Pretty much all evidence cited is circumstantial at best, and even as that evidence piles up, you need to take into consideration the scope of what believing Shepard would entail: essentially diverting all efforts and resources of the entire collected races of the Alliance toward a threat that is only vaguely understood, and whose power has only been personally witnessed by a handful of people.

As an analogue, just ask yourself what sort of evidence would be needed to convince us, the people of Earth, that an alien threat was coming, and that every single nation in the entire world was going to have unite together to fight against it.  I think a lot more would be needed than some astronauts saying, "We saw the aliens coming, and we have a recording of the aliens saying they're coming."  In Watchmen (the comic, not the botched-ending movie), they needed to have a mostly-intact alien materialize in New York City and kill half the city, and it was still around to study afterward to show that it was (supposedly) definitely alien; as established in ME2, Sovereign mostly disintegrated after being defeated, so there's not much there to show that it was a sentient robotic being, rather than just a big ship.

(And, I didn't even think about it until I had wrote that out, but remember that the alien in Watchmen was what the Council in Mass Effect think Sovereign was: a massive sham.  Food for thought.)

I think somebody hit the nail on the head, in that it's not so much that the Council doesn't believe, but that they're like, "Aw, there goes that cute little guy Shepard again with his silly little ideas about Geth gods coming to kill us all.  Let's give him a nice pat on the head and send him off to do his goofy little missions."

I can get on board with the Council being a little too cautious, but bad writing?  I really don't think so.