329 réponses à ce sujet

[GnusmasTHX]

A giant robot unlike anything I've ever seen before landing on the Statue of Liberty would do it.

No one is saying that they should make armies, because frankly, that probably won't help. They could've helped Shepard on his particular mission against the COLLECTOR's in many ways, but the outright deny him and his claims.

When someone calls in a bomb threat, its looked into IMMEDIATELY. Shepard practically called in a NUKE threat and the Council just covers their ears and scream "La la la can't hear you!" Even after pieces of the nuke just fell on their front lawn (Sovereign) and that particular person saved your lives.

It warrants another look, rather than complete omission.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Fishy]

korraz wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?
Audio and Video recordings? Are worth nothing. Everybody and his mom will be able to shop some reapers in the video of the turian councilor (whos a jackass, btw.)
A mad half-machine spectre, dead, with an army of...geth.
A giant, extremely advanced ship, that resembles strikingly the Geth dropships. At least I thought in the beginning, that the dropships are parts of the big ships tentacles.
The advanced technology? Well, we know that the Geth made huge leaps on that and that they are pretty much ahead of us. And it's not even THAT advanced. In only two years we were able to analyse the main-weaponary, scale it down and put it on our own ships. So no proof there.

Their decisions affect the entire galaxy. They try to support you secretly. They reinstate you as spectre, so you can do what you want. I'm pretty sure they have their own investigators and they are setting up their forces. But they simply can't be sure. And, they are politicians! Everyone watches them. What good would it do to say "Yeah, theres a advanced machine race on the way and we can't do anything about it, so we are most likely all doomed." Panic. Chaos. Super-Awesome for the reapers. At the moment the people aren't ready for this. So they have to keep this up and work on something that solves that problem.
Mark my words, in ME3 the council will come to you and say "Hey, Shep, old lad. Glad to see you. Hey, we have that ship, over here. Super-Awesome ME-Drive. Impenetrable shields. Star-Destroying weapons. That sorts of thingy. Problem is, we only have one. How about flying around and bashing the **** out of people? Jolly, there you are. How about naming it Normandy SR-3?"

Proof?

-Video Of the collector podding people
-A Geth Named legion in your team that can shove it inside their ass
-A Whole flotilla and one of the brightest scientist Salarian that can confirm the  Husk,Swarm and the plague thing
-A complete team of people that went inside the collector base
-The IFF
-The Schematic of Harbringer
-The Location of  a derelict reaper
-THE ADN of the Collector  Prothean
-Indoctrinated people and video log

There's so much proof.. But we get it.The proof they need it's when 100,000 Angry reaper will pop in the sky and boom headshot them.

Personnaly i hope in ME3 the citadel 's destroyed and we can see the council obliterated by a mass Reaper attack . .Than you see that Turian ass politician get pwned

[Nozybidaj]

BobbyTheI wrote...

As an analogue, just ask yourself what sort of evidence would be needed to convince us, the people of Earth, that an alien threat was coming, and that every single nation in the entire world was going to have unite together to fight against it.

I dunno, seeing a giant alien ship with technology infinitely more advanced than anything in the known galaxy attacking the very center of our seat of power and being witnessed by the (my guess on size of citadel) millions of people living there including the leaders of the free world (galaxy) might be enough to do it.

[Terraneaux]

Sapienti wrote...


If you're not like 16 or 17 years old, I don't see how you can justify having such a lack of understanding of world politics to even begin to understand the reasoning behind the council's behaviour. And name 5 good reasons why Shepard should have just ditched Cerberus from the get go. I challenge you to do that.

So... an understanding of world politics means that I think all politicians are teminally stupid?  Yes, a politician would say one thing in public and another in private, but in this case it would be 'Reapers don't exist!' in public and 'Seriously shephard, here's a ship, go find out what's what' in private.  The reasoning behind their behavior can *only* be that they were stupid, stupid on a level that makes them look like geniuses in the first.  They behaved as two-dimensionally as characters in a shonen anime, seriously.  I expected better from Bioware.  It's a hallmark of bad writing to have a given character be 'bad' and then, no matter what happens, that character always chooses the 'bad' or 'wrong' choice.  That's how the council is behaving in ME2, and it happens regardless of whether it's a human council or an alien one, two groups you'd expect to have wildly different opinions on any given issue.

5 reasons to ditch cerberus from the get go:

1. They haven't shown anything like altruistic motives, for all you know they were planning on installing some sort of mind control device on you and using you against the Alliance.  

2. They've shown that they have no problem murdering Alliance military and civilian personnel.  

3. They're an illegal black ops organization that has gone rogue, so if you're interested in law and order you shouldn't help them.

4. Captain Anderson doesn't like them at all, and he was right about Saren.

5. They're responsible for those soldier dying on Akuze, and you might have been one of the only survivors from that unit.  

Seriously, that last bit pisses me off.  Early in the game, when you're on the shuttle with Miranda and Jacob, Jacob mentions the Akuze incident if it was part of your background, but you never even bring up Cerberus's involvement.  It's bull****.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

marshalleck wrote...

Yes, but of all the valid criticisms of this particular plot point, you picked the most retarded way to attack it. Might as well tell us how bad the characters of ME2 are, based on how bad they are.

As opposed to your retarded attempts to defend it that lasted all but five minutes? Gimme a break. Its got people criticising it. They even mentioned the reapers by name at the end of ME1! I know its difficult for some of you sadacts to take ME2 being criticised, but hey, I dont hate the game. I just think people need to voice their opinions of what went wrong, harshly if they like.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nozybidaj wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

As an analogue, just ask yourself what sort of evidence would be needed to convince us, the people of Earth, that an alien threat was coming, and that every single nation in the entire world was going to have unite together to fight against it.

I dunno, seeing a giant alien ship with technology infinitely more advanced than anything in the known galaxy attacking the very center of our seat of power and being witnessed by the (my guess on size of citadel) millions of people living there including the leaders of the free world (galaxy) might be enough to do it.

Where did you get that pwnage from? I want some of it too!

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 13 février 2010 - 02:05 .

[Zayin]

Yeah, the issue seemed odd and a bit jarring to me. Denial in overdrive after Shepard died the first time.

One would think that the scans & recordings EDI took from the Collector Base along with certain key testimonies would prove to the Council the threat is real now (i.e. ex- STG Mordin's testimony among the Salarian community and JUSTICAR Samara's word-is-law testimony among Asari).

Other testimonies could be brushed aside too easily by the Council:

Shepard -- the Council already made it clear how they view Shepard's view of the Reapers

Miranda -- Cerberus Operative; Cerberus isn't exactly a good name to be throwing around in Council space. Doesn't matter if she quit in your playthrough or not.

Jacob -- Cerberus Operative; see explanation for Miranda. Same goes for anyone else of Shepard's ME2 crew.

Garrus -- he's too close to Shepard to be objective in this matter plus his quitting C-Sec and becoming a vigilante on Omega doesn't exactly boost his testimony

Tali -- same with Garrus, too close to Shepard; Tali's word may have a lot of pull with various people in the Quarian Flotilla but not with the Council. While the Council should be able to see past Quarian stereotypes AND remember that Tali helped with data against Saren

Grunt -- too young and likely doesn't "know any better" yet than to believe Shepard's obession

Jack -- a murderous convict; her word alone carries little weight

Thane -- Assassin; likely not going to trust his word

Zaeed -- Merc; again with the character witness working against someone in Shepard's team.

Legion -- Not sure how the Council would go with this. Possibly skeptical that the Geth platform had been reprogrammed to say what Shepard wants it to say.

So the burden of proof rests on Mordin, Samara and the quality of EDI's scans, data streams and recorded communications. Even so, it's possible they wouldn't like EDI given the restrictions against AI and her association with Cerberus.

Btw, about the double standard about fixing Shepard and not Joker's bones? Well, it cost over 4 Billion credits to do all that for Shepard. I'd wager that IF someone dropped that kind of currency (whatever was needed for just the bone-work) for Joker he would have better/stronger bones, too.

Edit:  also, if Kasumi is a real future DLC and not just rumor, I doubt the word of a thief would carry a lot of weight... even if she was a famous one. 

Modifié par Zayin, 13 février 2010 - 02:11 .

[Ghost_360]

Don't have to worry about any of this stuff when your working with Cerberus.

[Sapienti]

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...

Wynne:
Actually I did have a discussion with the writer (Mac Walters) about this topic. And he explained his view, and ultimately decided that he preferred leaving it the same. And that's his job, as a writer, to pick what he thinks is best, so I don't have any problem with it.

And so I definitely am not implying the writers don't listen! They definitely do.

As for the Council being evil or stupid - Udina is maliciously stupid, and that's clearly portrayed, but if that's true of the Council also, its not portrayed strongly enough. I have a tendency to guess that the rulers of a successful peaceful galaxy are probably reasonably intelligent and good.

As for some of the cynicism of politicians, I don't buy it. Politicians aren't all bad. Hell, I've known some.

Oh yeah and to the guy that said I could learn a bit of politics from his post - you know nothing about my level of education. And what you wrote is pretty flimsy. I don't think you've done a very good job of teaching "politics." I learned more in PolySci 101.

I was going with what you gave me. Can't really do much with a few lines of text that don't really say much about the whole discussion going on. I'm only halfway through my PolySci 101 myself so I'm not saying I'm an expert. Nor that I was trying to teach a lot about political science. Just that someone who seems completely ignorant to the mind set of stupid politicians might be able to see things from the other side of the fence.

Glad to see we have someone from the office responding though, I've been on other forums and they just have some no name intern take the title as forum mod and they usually have no kind of insight whatsoever.

[T0paze]

Frankly, the writers dropped the ball with this story. It's just, well, bad writing, nothing more.
There's absolutely no way there's not any evidence left about Sovereign's true origin. Recording, scans, remains of the ship etc. So, there are only two explanations:

1. The Council knows that Sovereign was a Reaper, but they just don't want to admit it. Which is fine, except that the writers should've given Shepard some lines to indicate that he understands what's going on. They didn't, so right now Shepard looks like an uber-idiot.
2. The Council has no real power and is controlled by a secret organization/group of people/whatever. They could indeed have covered any trace of Sovereing's nature and fed the Council false information. However, this sounds like a conspiracy theory and besides, it's not even hinted at in the game.

Modifié par T0paze, 13 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[GnusmasTHX]

3. They're really are THAT stupid.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[Nightwriter]

BobbyTheI wrote...

I don't know, I can see where some people are coming from, but at the same time, most of the arguments about this seem to boil down to "Well, they should just trust me, because I'm the hero, and I'm right!"

Pretty much all evidence cited is circumstantial at best, and even as that evidence piles up, you need to take into consideration the scope of what believing Shepard would entail: essentially diverting all efforts and resources of the entire collected races of the Alliance toward a threat that is only vaguely understood, and whose power has only been personally witnessed by a handful of people.

As an analogue, just ask yourself what sort of evidence would be needed to convince us, the people of Earth, that an alien threat was coming, and that every single nation in the entire world was going to have unite together to fight against it.  I think a lot more would be needed than some astronauts saying, "We saw the aliens coming, and we have a recording of the aliens saying they're coming."  In Watchmen (the comic, not the botched-ending movie), they needed to have a mostly-intact alien materialize in New York City and kill half the city, and it was still around to study afterward to show that it was (supposedly) definitely alien; as established in ME2, Sovereign mostly disintegrated after being defeated, so there's not much there to show that it was a sentient robotic being, rather than just a big ship.

(And, I didn't even think about it until I had wrote that out, but remember that the alien in Watchmen was what the Council in Mass Effect think Sovereign was: a massive sham.  Food for thought.)

I think somebody hit the nail on the head, in that it's not so much that the Council doesn't believe, but that they're like, "Aw, there goes that cute little guy Shepard again with his silly little ideas about Geth gods coming to kill us all.  Let's give him a nice pat on the head and send him off to do his goofy little missions."

I can get on board with the Council being a little too cautious, but bad writing?  I really don't think so.

You know, I agree, the evidence is circumstantial—but I believe it IS enough to warrant their investigation and their attention. If it were me, I’d be concerned just by what little they have seen.
 
I might not necessarily believe it, but I’d be looking for definitive answers. I’d have feelers out doing active recon, trying to figure out what the truth was.
 
I WOULDN’T just dismiss the entire thing because it’s easier to believe none of it’s real. If there’s a threat to the galaxy, even if it’s just a possible threat that could be a hoax, I’d be looking into it.

[Ulicus]

I understood the need to keep the Council out of the picture. Even so, I think to have them actively doubt the Reapers' existence was the wrong way to go about it.  Firstly, it severely undermined the previous game's ending.  Secondly, it failed to take into account the fact that Shepard was only able to locate Ilos - and save the Council - through his visions: visions that depicted the Reapers.

A deluded Council, I could swallow... but their delusion, if any, should have been that the Reaper threat was effectively over rather than that the Reapers didn't exist.

Something along these lines would have worked fine:

Council: You have already stopped the Reapers, Commander.  Our investigations in the wake of your absence have been concluded. The Reapers are trapped in Darkspace.  As long as the Central Control Unit is protected, we are secure.

Shepard: You're wrong! The Collectors are working with the Reapers! They're up to something! 

Council: Or is that simply what Cerberus wants you to think?

Blah, blah, blah. Leading to the same effective "We'll reinstate your Spectre status, but we're not supporting you beyond that" end.

Modifié par Ulicus, 13 février 2010 - 02:12 .

[marshalleck]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Yes, but of all the valid criticisms of this particular plot point, you picked the most retarded way to attack it. Might as well tell us how bad the characters of ME2 are, based on how bad they are.

As opposed to your retarded attempts to defend it that lasted all but five minutes? Gimme a break. Its got people criticising it. They even mentioned the reapers by name at the end of ME1! I know its difficult for some of you sadacts to take ME2 being criticised, but hey, I dont hate the game. I just think people need to voice their opinions of what went wrong, harshly if they like.

Where did I defend anything? You're imagining things. I want direct quotes.

It's a weak point. I've been sayign as much for days how ridiculous it is that the Council is still ignoring the threat, saying there's no proof, when there's Reaper junk still being pulled out of buildings on the Citadel. They could date the materials and find that the construction pre-dates the geth and all contemporary organic species. They could analyze the design and realize that there is no transparency between geth and Reaper technology.

All I said was of all the different ways to approach this problem with the story, you chose the most ridiculous, incendiary, and insubstantial.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[newcomplex]

Its really quite clear. To my knowledge, councilors are elected, its not a dictatorship. People who are elected have constituents. The council is more concerned with their ~however long term in office.

They certainly have enough evidence that it was in fact, a reaper. They also have no evidence that more reapers are incoming. They're not going to wage a intergalactic war because of some miniscule bits of intel. Look at Bushes portrayal after the Iraq war. I'm not saying that he had legitimate reasons, but the thing is, nobody knows if his intents were malicious or not. He may have genuinely believed their were WMD and the sanctity of the western world was a stake. If Iraq actually had WMDs, and nuked say, Israel, we'll look back and say ZOMG WHY DIDN'T BUSH INVADE.

If such a war were started, people would be going ZOMG CONSPIRACY TO INVADE TERMINUS SYSTEMS BECAUSE OF ALLEGED "REAPERS", FALSE PRETENSE IN ORDER TO ACQUIRE THEIR SUPPLY OF EEZO (analogous to wmds, oil).

Their politicians. They don't have absolute power, everything they say has powerful repercussions, what they do changes the galaxy, but they are bound by their constituents, bound by public opinion. They can't flaunt this power, or they can kiss their chance of reelection goodbye.

For the council, acknowledging even the existence of "reapers" have enourmous political reprocussions.    It puts them in a catch-22, where one side demands further action, the other disregards it as conspiracy.     Their job is to ensure unity.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 13 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[BobbyTheI]

Nightwriter wrote...
You know, I agree, the evidence is circumstantial—but I believe it IS enough to warrant their investigation and their attention. If it were me, I’d be concerned just by what little they have seen.
 
I might not necessarily believe it, but I’d be looking for definitive answers. I’d have feelers out doing active recon, trying to figure out what the truth was.
 
I WOULDN’T just dismiss the entire thing because it’s easier to believe none of it’s real. If there’s a threat to the galaxy, even if it’s just a possible threat that could be a hoax, I’d be looking into it.

Well, the problem with that is... HOW do they investigate it?  All we know at the end of ME1 is that the Reapers are... somewhere in dark space, in a place that, as far as we know, has no mass relays to reach it.  Space is very, very big, and if they have no idea where to even look, it's kinda pointless to try and find them.  And with nothing left of Sovereign... there's really nothing left to look at.

Although, yeah, it might have been a little bit better if the Council had been like, "Yeah, we created a 'Reaper Investigation Unit' to look into your fears," and it turns out to just be two guys in a crappy office with no resources.  At least throw Shepard the bone.

[antagonist99]

Heartlocker wrote...

Wraith_3 wrote...

I think the Council is the equivalent of the U.N. The U.N. looks the other way on lots of things so they don't have to act. They wouldn't call what was happening in Africa genocide so they wouldn't have to stop it. Now they are ignoring the fact that Iran is trying to get nukes. They don't do their jobs and then someone has to step in and clean up the crap storm that could have been stopped. So I thought it was pretty realistic.

Just one little nit-pick..Iran trying to get nukes?

All we can say from the information we have now, they are trying to extract energy. The USA is sitting upon a payload of A-bombs. I fully support Iran powering their nation as every other big-ass nation is doing so. They fearing for nukes is hypocritical. USA has enough power to nuke the globe three times.

Sorry, not trying to get all political here, but the president of Iran is right this time. They have the right.

The difference between ideologists and fanatics is that the former won't risk themselves getting roasted just to see their perceived enemies burning in hell. Pity the political junta in Iran is mainly comprised of the latter.

And I for one am not comfortable running the risk of letting fanatics research THE bomb.

/OT

@topic:

Yeah, I'm seriously tempted to go kill off the council, just so I won't have to put up with their BS in ME2. Is the Renegade/Anderson ending in ME1 any better for ME2?

[Arijharn]

Basically though, what's the point of even having Spectre's if the group that employs them, the Council, isn't willing to at least listen to what their own agents have to say?

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

marshalleck wrote...

Where did I defend anything? You're imagining things. I want direct quotes.

It's a weak point. I've been sayign as much for days how ridiculous it is that the Council is still ignoring the threat, saying there's no proof, when there's Reaper junk still being pulled out of buildings on the Citadel.

All I said was of all the different ways to approach this problem with the story, you chose the most ridiculous, incendiary, and unsubstantial.

Hey, dont blame me because youre having trouble accepting its clearly one of many fabricated plot decisions designed to pen Shepard in, make him/her feel alone, and have nobody else to turn to but Cerberus.

The game is just willing you to believe "nobody gives a crap about this but cerberus". Probably as a poor attempt to compensate for their ME1 actions, which is like others have said, ridiculous given that you cant bring up akuze - not once.

Its not unsubstantial. Its blatant, its obvious and its poorly done. What else would the point of including them serve if not as a trite attempt to bring darkness into ME2? Their role is all but 60 seconds long. If it wasnt for that, they could have left them out of the game entirely and left it to news reports/codex entries or simple offhand comments like the ones the engineers make.

Their reaction most likely comes from the same place as Kai/Ash and Anderson, and its to force you into cerberus arms, and show that Shepard is having old allies turn their backs on him.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 13 février 2010 - 02:17 .

[Giantevilhead]

T0paze wrote...

Frankly, the writers dropped the ball with this story. It's just, well, bad writing, nothing more.
There's absolutely no way there's not any evidence left about Sovereign's true origin. Recording, scans, remains of the ship etc. So, there are only two explanations:

1. The Council knows that Sovereign was a Reaper, but they just don't want to admit it. Which is fine, except that the writers should've given Shepard some lines to indicate that he understands what's going on. They didn't, so right now Shepard looks like an uber-idiot.
2. The Council has no real power and is controlled by a secret organization/group of people/whatever. They could indeed have covered any trace of Sovereing's nature and fed the Council false information. However, this sounds like a conspiracy theory and besides, it's not even hinted at in the game.

Except the galaxy is full of Reaper technology. In fact, all mass effect technology is based on Reaper technology. The Council is living on a space station that was built by the Reapers. If they thought that all the Reaper technology they already have was made by the Protheans, why would they all of a sudden think that Sovereign, this new piece of Reaper tech, was made by a completely different race?

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 13 février 2010 - 02:17 .

[GnusmasTHX]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
You know, I agree, the evidence is circumstantial—but I believe it IS enough to warrant their investigation and their attention. If it were me, I’d be concerned just by what little they have seen.
 
I might not necessarily believe it, but I’d be looking for definitive answers. I’d have feelers out doing active recon, trying to figure out what the truth was.
 
I WOULDN’T just dismiss the entire thing because it’s easier to believe none of it’s real. If there’s a threat to the galaxy, even if it’s just a possible threat that could be a hoax, I’d be looking into it.

Well, the problem with that is... HOW do they investigate it?  All we know at the end of ME1 is that the Reapers are... somewhere in dark space, in a place that, as far as we know, has no mass relays to reach it.  Space is very, very big, and if they have no idea where to even look, it's kinda pointless to try and find them.  And with nothing left of Sovereign... there's really nothing left to look at.

Although, yeah, it might have been a little bit better if the Council had been like, "Yeah, we created a 'Reaper Investigation Unit' to look into your fears," and it turns out to just be two guys in a crappy office with no resources.  At least throw Shepard the bone.

Probably the same way Cerberus found and studied the derelict Reaper and found the Collector cruiser.

They could've also sent someone they trust, or a handful of someone's with Shepard, to monitor his activities. Seeing as how they think their own Spectre is delusional.

[newcomplex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Where did I defend anything? You're imagining things. I want direct quotes.

It's a weak point. I've been sayign as much for days how ridiculous it is that the Council is still ignoring the threat, saying there's no proof, when there's Reaper junk still being pulled out of buildings on the Citadel.

All I said was of all the different ways to approach this problem with the story, you chose the most ridiculous, incendiary, and unsubstantial.

Hey, dont blame me your having trouble accepting its clearly one of many fabricated plot decisions designed to pen Shepard in, make him/her feel alone, and have nobody else to turn to but Cerberus.

The game is just willing you to believe "nobody gives a crap about this but cerberus". Probably as a poor attempt to compensate for their ME1 actions, which is like others have said, ridiculous given that you cant bring up akuze, not once.

Its not unsubstantial. Its blatant, its obvious and its poorly done. What else would the point of including them serve if not as a trite attempt to bring darkness into ME2? Their role is all but 60 seconds longs. If it wasnt for that, they could have left them out of the game entirely and left it to news reports.

Their reaction most likely comes from the same place Kai/Ash, and Andersons does, and its to force to into cerberus arms, and show that Shepard is having old allies turn their backs on him.

lol, yeah, not being able to bring up Akuze pissed me off so much.   I almost want Bioware to patch that in.   Its completely rediculous that I ommit having my entire squad being blown up because of cerebrus experiments.  

[Sapienti]

Terraneaux wrote...

So... an understanding of world politics means that I think all politicians are teminally stupid?  Yes, a politician would say one thing in public and another in private, but in this case it would be 'Reapers don't exist!' in public and 'Seriously shephard, here's a ship, go find out what's what' in private.  The reasoning behind their behavior can *only* be that they were stupid, stupid on a level that makes them look like geniuses in the first.  They behaved as two-dimensionally as characters in a shonen anime, seriously.  I expected better from Bioware.  It's a hallmark of bad writing to have a given character be 'bad' and then, no matter what happens, that character always chooses the 'bad' or 'wrong' choice.  That's how the council is behaving in ME2, and it happens regardless of whether it's a human council or an alien one, two groups you'd expect to have wildly different opinions on any given issue.

5 reasons to ditch cerberus from the get go:

1. They haven't shown anything like altruistic motives, for all you know they were planning on installing some sort of mind control device on you and using you against the Alliance.  

2. They've shown that they have no problem murdering Alliance military and civilian personnel.  

3. They're an illegal black ops organization that has gone rogue, so if you're interested in law and order you shouldn't help them.

4. Captain Anderson doesn't like them at all, and he was right about Saren.

5. They're responsible for those soldier dying on Akuze, and you might have been one of the only survivors from that unit.  

Seriously, that last bit pisses me off.  Early in the game, when you're on the shuttle with Miranda and Jacob, Jacob mentions the Akuze incident if it was part of your background, but you never even bring up Cerberus's involvement.  It's bull****.

I never said they had to be intelligent politicians. You just seemed to think that they should accept everything based on the knowledge of the player and couldn't concieve why they would have their opinions. I do agree to an extent that having a character inherently bad just for the sake of being bad can be a sign of bad writing. But in this case it hasn't gotten to that point yet. If the council sees whatever information Shepard acquired at the end of ME2 and still says he's pretending then I'll have to concede my side and say that they're copping out. As it stands with what we're given I just don't agree.

1. Miranda tells Shepard that she wanted to put the mind control device in Shepard in the beginning but they didn't. That isn't a reason not to work with them thats a reason not to trust them.
2. Another reason not to trust them.
3. Another
4. Another
5. And another reason to just not trust Cerberus. Which Shepard doesn't.

Sure they're evil, they've shown nothing to signify they're any different. The Illusive Man is too enigmatic to trust and they even like to keep you in the dark. But none of those really answer my challenge. Or to be more specific. I should have challenged you to give me 5 alternatives given the situation.

Shepard is not a billionaire. He can't go out buy a star ship and then fly to the Alliance or Council and try to make his case. Thats established. He is only one man. Cerberus is offering to fund everything, it would be childish to turn down the helping hand the same way Ashley/Kaidan does. When someone gives you an opportunity you should take it, you don't have to trust them. The Illusive Man didn't claim to be taking control of anything, he left Shepard in charge and through the whole game its made clear that Shepard is running the show and using the Illusive Man to provide him with resources and information when the need presents itself.

If Shepard ditched Cerberus from the get go he'd be bogged down pushing paper work and all that crap which is made clear from the beginning when you talk to members of the crew about why they're with Cerberus. I'll say it again, there is no reason to trust Cerberus. But that doesn't mean there is no reason to accept their help.

[Nozybidaj]

Ulicus wrote...

I understood the need to keep the Council out of the picture. Even so, I think to have them actively doubt the Reapers' existence was the wrong way to go about it.  Firstly, it severely undermined the previous game's ending.  Secondly, it failed to take into account the fact that Shepard was only able to locate Ilos - and save the Council - through his visions: visions that depicted the Reapers.

A deluded Council, I could swallow... but their delusion, if any, should have been that the Reaper threat was effectively over rather than that the Reapers didn't exist.

Something along these lines would have worked fine:

Council: You have already stopped the Reapers, Commander.  Our investigations in the wake of your absence have been concluded. The Reapers are trapped in Darkspace.  As long as the Central Control Unit is protected, we are secure.

Shepard: You're wrong! The Collectors are working with the Reapers! They're up to something! 

Council: Or is that simply what Cerberus wants you to think?

Blah, blah, blah. Leading to the same effective "We'll reinstate your Spectre status, but we're not supporting you beyond that" end.

It would have been far more believable for the Council to believe you, and see your working for Cerberus as an oppurtunity.  Have them give you back full Spectre status and send you on their own mission based on your new "arrangement" having you collect information about Cerberus and sending it back to the Council.  Throw in a few N7 missions where you infiltrate some Cerberus bases, collect key data to send back to the Council, and if Miranda asks what you are doing, Renegade interrupt with a Falcon Punch.  In ME3 they could tie it into a subplot of the Council/Alliance -vs- whatever is left of Cerberus.

That way the Council remains believable and credible from a story stand point but the game still forces you into a working with the devil situation. And that took all of 5 seconds for me to come up with.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 13 février 2010 - 02:21 .