329 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...


Hey, dont blame me because youre having trouble accepting

-citation needed

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[-Area51-Silent]

Find me a country where there are not more unqualified politicians running the country! I think by having willfully ignorant council members making decisions it reflects true society. To me the writer is showing that the Council membes are more conerned with their positions than the threat.



I say that because if they admit they were wrong in the first case when Shepard points out the reaper threat, and then the entire citadel comes crashing down around them, how does that look? Their constituency (dunno if thats how it works with the council so I am guessing) would throw them out because they knew this was going to happen and willfully ignored it.



Typical politicians thinking of themselves first and the people they represent second.

[Arijharn]

I sorta enjoyed working for Cerberus (well, having an alliance of convenience with them), even as a Paragon. Actually, I don't want to betray them lol

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

marshalleck wrote...

-citation needed

Thats sweet. Hide behind citations from a few pages back.

Did you actually have a point to make, or were you just looking to waste time? Im not going to spell it out for you. Engage your brain a little and you might see where the whole forced fiasco is coming from.

[BobbyTheI]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
You know, I agree, the evidence is circumstantial—but I believe it IS enough to warrant their investigation and their attention. If it were me, I’d be concerned just by what little they have seen.
 
I might not necessarily believe it, but I’d be looking for definitive answers. I’d have feelers out doing active recon, trying to figure out what the truth was.
 
I WOULDN’T just dismiss the entire thing because it’s easier to believe none of it’s real. If there’s a threat to the galaxy, even if it’s just a possible threat that could be a hoax, I’d be looking into it.

Well, the problem with that is... HOW do they investigate it?  All we know at the end of ME1 is that the Reapers are... somewhere in dark space, in a place that, as far as we know, has no mass relays to reach it.  Space is very, very big, and if they have no idea where to even look, it's kinda pointless to try and find them.  And with nothing left of Sovereign... there's really nothing left to look at.

Although, yeah, it might have been a little bit better if the Council had been like, "Yeah, we created a 'Reaper Investigation Unit' to look into your fears," and it turns out to just be two guys in a crappy office with no resources.  At least throw Shepard the bone.

Probably the same way Cerberus found and studied the derelict Reaper and found the Collector cruiser.

They could've also sent someone they trust, or a handful of someone's with Shepard, to monitor his activities. Seeing as how they think their own Spectre is delusional.

Ouch, thanks for reminding me about the derelict Reaper.  That actually throws my whole case for a loop a little: seems like there should have been at least the option to sell Cerberus out and say, "So, hey, Alliance guys, I found this Reaper thing out in space that MIGHT just give you a little more evidence."  I guess that really isn't an option, though, since you needed the IFF and didn't have time to let the Alliance pore over it, and there's no guarantee that any Alliance researchers who showed up wouldn't end up like the Cerberus researchers, but still, something to consider.

You know, if Cerberus had actually TRUSTED the Alliance and let them take a look at the derelict Reaper themselves, maybe the Alliance wouldn't have had Shepard chasing after pockets of Geth.

[marshalleck]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

-citation needed

Thats sweet. Hide behind citations from a few pages back.

Did you actually have a point to make, or were you just looking to waste time? Im not going to spell it out for you. Engage your brain a little and you might see where the whole forced fiasco is coming from.

You keep asserting that I am "defending" the writing in this instance. All I am asking is for you to substantiate that. Or admit that you're making baseless blanket accusations.

[Computron2000]

Suprez30 wrote...
Proof?

-Video Of the collector podding people
-A Geth Named legion in your team that can shove it inside their ass
-A Whole flotilla and one of the brightest scientist Salarian that can confirm the  Husk,Swarm and the plague thing
-A complete team of people that went inside the collector base
-The IFF
-The Schematic of Harbringer
-The Location of  a derelict reaper
-THE ADN of the Collector  Prothean
-Indoctrinated people and video log

Sadly, the council would probably say something like this on your proof


-Video Of the collector podding people
The collectors activities are known, though their motives are not. If you had not built those colonies in the Terminus systems, you would have protection by the Council fleets. As it stands it is only a human problem.

-A Geth Named legion in your team that can shove it inside their ass
*The council actually says something similiar* Perhaps the geth that built Sovereign arre more advanced than your trophy bot

-A Whole flotilla and one of the brightest scientist Salarian that can confirm the  Husk,Swarm and the plague thing
Husks are geth creations, these swarms are a collector weapon. Again not in Council space so a human only problem. The plagues could very well have been engineered by Ceberus commander, since humans are immune to it.

-A complete team of people that went inside the collector base
A convict, an assassin, a uncontrolled krogan, 2 cerebus operatives, a reprogrammed geth reobot, a mercenary and 2 of your ex team mates are hardly convincing proof commander. The Justicar and the scientist have been debriefed and we applaud you for ending the collector threat to human space. Though this so called "human reaper" we believe is merely a collector robot, perhaps some sort of weapon. Now the threat has ended, we can all rest easy

-The IFF
An important Prothean artifact. Why did you not pass it to the Council immediately Shepard?

-The Schematic of Harbringer
These pictures, which human artist did that? Proves nothing commander (and no its not a schematic, just an external look)

-The Location of  a derelict reaper
A prothean ruin. Possibly the geth recovered another one in geth space and rebuilt it into sovereign. Commander you destroyed a valuable technological artifact. you should have informed the Council and let the experts handle it.

-THE ADN of the Collector  Prothean
Commander, the protheans are known to meddle and observe other sentient beings, the one in your solar system that was found is proof of that. We, the Council, believe that you may have found evidence that the protheans meddled in biotechology, perhaps transplanting their DNA into another race, but your claims of "reapers" remaking the protheans are absurd

-Indoctrinated people and video log
Humans illegally on a prothean ruin. They should have worn breathers. The air may have affected them. This is why reckless humans should never have been on the Council

[Nightwriter]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
You know, I agree, the evidence is circumstantial—but I believe it IS enough to warrant their investigation and their attention. If it were me, I’d be concerned just by what little they have seen.
 
I might not necessarily believe it, but I’d be looking for definitive answers. I’d have feelers out doing active recon, trying to figure out what the truth was.
 
I WOULDN’T just dismiss the entire thing because it’s easier to believe none of it’s real. If there’s a threat to the galaxy, even if it’s just a possible threat that could be a hoax, I’d be looking into it.

Well, the problem with that is... HOW do they investigate it?  All we know at the end of ME1 is that the Reapers are... somewhere in dark space, in a place that, as far as we know, has no mass relays to reach it.  Space is very, very big, and if they have no idea where to even look, it's kinda pointless to try and find them.  And with nothing left of Sovereign... there's really nothing left to look at.

Although, yeah, it might have been a little bit better if the Council had been like, "Yeah, we created a 'Reaper Investigation Unit' to look into your fears," and it turns out to just be two guys in a crappy office with no resources.  At least throw Shepard the bone.

Probably the same way Cerberus found and studied the derelict Reaper and found the Collector cruiser.

They could've also sent someone they trust, or a handful of someone's with Shepard, to monitor his activities. Seeing as how they think their own Spectre is delusional.

Yeah, pretty much this. Thanks, Gnusmas.

On top of that, I'd be trying to do some data recovery on Vigil. They said Vigil was no longer functional, but I can't imagine there wasn't SOMETHING that could've been recovered or scavenged. Anything.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

marshalleck wrote...

You keep asserting that I am "defending" the writing in this instance. All I am asking is for you to substantiate that. Or admit that you're making baseless blanket accusations.

Your entire point so far has been taking umbridge with one perfectly place phrase simply because you dont like it being used.

Ill say it again, Im not responsible for your ignorance. If you dont want to look at it that way, its fine, no skin off my back. Just cant fathom why you persist with this objection for calling this up on the forced and ham-fisted storytelling it was in ME2.

[GnusmasTHX]

Also consider is IF the Council or Alliance or both commissioned a "Reaper Investigation Unit" after Shepards original warning, or at least after the Citadel battle, they could have found the derelict Reaper themselves. If they had, and the scientists gone crazy regardless, at least Shepard could've shown them the tapes of indoctrination or whatever other data they collected, like the on the dragon spikes, Shepard could've relayed the information and it wouldn't have been dismissed as Cerberus or Saren's shenanigans. If they had their own people on it.

Or they could've said, "Our own people are incompetent" or something.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 02:31 .

[Nightwriter]

Dink, how is it that you always seem to get in a fight with someone? You, sir, have a talent.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 février 2010 - 02:33 .

[marshalleck]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

You keep asserting that I am "defending" the writing in this instance. All I am asking is for you to substantiate that. Or admit that you're making baseless blanket accusations.

Your entire point so far has been taking umbridge with one perfectly place phrase simply because you dont like it being used.

Ill say it again, Im not responsible for your ignorance. If you dont want to look at it that way, its fine, no skin off my back. Just cant fathom why you persist with this objection for calling this up on the forced and ham-fisted storytelling it was in ME2.

Actually, what I called you on was characterizing it as being "grimdark" for its own sake. I asked why you think it's "grimdark" since there's really nothing about the interaction with the Council that could be described as such. It's more farcical than anything.

Instead, you launched into some tirade about how I am rushing to fanboy defense of Bioware's honor. It's laughable.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 février 2010 - 02:33 .

[Sapienti]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

You keep asserting that I am "defending" the writing in this instance. All I am asking is for you to substantiate that. Or admit that you're making baseless blanket accusations.

Your entire point so far has been taking umbridge with one perfectly place phrase simply because you dont like it being used.

Ill say it again, Im not responsible for your ignorance. If you dont want to look at it that way, its fine, no skin off my back. Just cant fathom why you persist with this objection for calling this up on the forced and ham-fisted storytelling it was in ME2.

Because its really all opinionated. Both sides have argued their piece and both are convinced they are right. We should all just agree to disagree, this will become another dead horse beat off real quick. Or it probably already has. For every assertion that the storytelling was this there are just as many saying the storytelling is that.

When it comes down to it, the best we can do is say what ever to fill in gaps in peoples understanding and let them make their own decision.

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Also consider is IF the Council or
Alliance or both commissioned a "Reaper Investigation Unit" after
Shepards original warning, or at least after the Citadel battle, they
could have found the derelict Reaper themselves. If they had, and the
scientists gone crazy regardless, at least Shepard could've shown them
the tapes of indoctrination or whatever other data they collected, like
the on the dragon spikes, Shepard could've relayed the information and
it wouldn't have been dismissed as Cerberus or Saren's shenanigans. If
they had their own people on it.

Or they could've said, "Our own people are incompetent" or something.

I think they could have easily written that in to the story line. The council had launched its own investigation unit in conjunction with the alliance and they found no evidence to support it. Because they could then write off the soft evidence like prothean beacons and what not as circumstantial. The only true hard evidence was the derelict Reaper. It was there for millions of years and Cerberus happened upon it, it could just as easily have gone undiscovered for another hundred thousand years or more. Its one of those chance discoveries that the council could just as easily have not found.

It would have saved a lot of forum "heartache" to have the council acknowledge Sovereign but then not acknowledge impending doom. But then we wouldn't be able to have such enriching discussions lol.

Modifié par Sapienti, 13 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[BobbyTheI]

Computron2000 wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...
Proof?

-Video Of the collector podding people
-A Geth Named legion in your team that can shove it inside their ass
-A Whole flotilla and one of the brightest scientist Salarian that can confirm the  Husk,Swarm and the plague thing
-A complete team of people that went inside the collector base
-The IFF
-The Schematic of Harbringer
-The Location of  a derelict reaper
-THE ADN of the Collector  Prothean
-Indoctrinated people and video log

Sadly, the council would probably say something like this on your proof


-Video Of the collector podding people
The collectors activities are known, though their motives are not. If you had not built those colonies in the Terminus systems, you would have protection by the Council fleets. As it stands it is only a human problem.

-A Geth Named legion in your team that can shove it inside their ass
*The council actually says something similiar* Perhaps the geth that built Sovereign arre more advanced than your trophy bot

-A Whole flotilla and one of the brightest scientist Salarian that can confirm the  Husk,Swarm and the plague thing
Husks are geth creations, these swarms are a collector weapon. Again not in Council space so a human only problem. The plagues could very well have been engineered by Ceberus commander, since humans are immune to it.

-A complete team of people that went inside the collector base
A convict, an assassin, a uncontrolled krogan, 2 cerebus operatives, a reprogrammed geth reobot, a mercenary and 2 of your ex team mates are hardly convincing proof commander. The Justicar and the scientist have been debriefed and we applaud you for ending the collector threat to human space. Though this so called "human reaper" we believe is merely a collector robot, perhaps some sort of weapon. Now the threat has ended, we can all rest easy

-The IFF
An important Prothean artifact. Why did you not pass it to the Council immediately Shepard?

-The Schematic of Harbringer
These pictures, which human artist did that? Proves nothing commander (and no its not a schematic, just an external look)

-The Location of  a derelict reaper
A prothean ruin. Possibly the geth recovered another one in geth space and rebuilt it into sovereign. Commander you destroyed a valuable technological artifact. you should have informed the Council and let the experts handle it.

-THE ADN of the Collector  Prothean
Commander, the protheans are known to meddle and observe other sentient beings, the one in your solar system that was found is proof of that. We, the Council, believe that you may have found evidence that the protheans meddled in biotechology, perhaps transplanting their DNA into another race, but your claims of "reapers" remaking the protheans are absurd

-Indoctrinated people and video log
Humans illegally on a prothean ruin. They should have worn breathers. The air may have affected them. This is why reckless humans should never have been on the Council

You're even better at this than me.  

But really, it's believable that even as the circumstantial evidence piles up, the Council would want to ignore it. Not only because, as I've said, for Shepard to be right would essentially require focusing everything on defeating the Reapers, but for the equally distressing reason that IT PROBABLY WOULDN'T WORK.

I mean, think about this from the Council's perspective. One, one singular one of what Shepard calls Reapers damn near destroyed THE center of all civilization. It plowed through some of the strongest ships in the fleet like they were toys. And now Shepard says there are THOUSANDS more of them.

As Anderson says, to acknowledge that Shepard is right is one of the most horrifying things to realize: that these things HAVE done this before, against civilizations that may have been even more advanced than the current one, and that even IF the Alliance manages to rally together everyone against them... they probably still going to lose. Essentially, we're all screwed, and the only thing we can hope is that maybe we can make a good last stand before they wipe us out.

It's much easier, in the end, to find the holes in Shepard's arguments and convince yourself that nothing is coming, than to acknowledge that something as horrifying as Sovereign is alive, hates your guts, and that he has a LOT of friends.  

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

marshalleck wrote...

Actually, what I called you on was characterizing it as being "grimdark" for its own sake. I asked why you think it's "grimdark" since there's really nothing about the interaction with the Council that could be described as such. It's more farcical than anything.

Instead, you launched into some tirade about how I am rushing to fanboy defense of Bioware's honor. It's laughable.

Whats laughable is its right there, staring you in the face.

The rewrote the council that we saw at the end of ME1 to the one we see in ME2 for the sake of isolating Shepard and adding to the "dark second act".

It was forced, cheap and superficial. Thats grimdark.

Sorry if you cant handle it, but dont worry, Im sure youll get over it.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 13 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[marshalleck]

See, how hard was that? I swear, getting some honest opinions out of people on these forums is like pulling ****ing teeth sometimes.

There's no need to go around stamping your feet like a child.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 février 2010 - 02:40 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dink, how is it that you always seem to get in a fight with someone? You, sir, have a talent.

No I have a reputation, and its one certain folks like marshelleck seem to think they need to challenge.

He was the first to respond. Ive just be doing him the courtesy of indulging his little jibe.

[Ulicus]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

It was forced, cheap and superficial. Thats grimdark.

I'm at a total loss. How does the second sentence relate to the first?

[marshalleck]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
his little jibe.

Asking you to express your ideas a bit more fully is a jibe? You're paranoid.

[mrfett]

Terraneaux wrote...
5 reasons to ditch cerberus from the get go:

1. They haven't shown anything like altruistic motives, for all you know they were planning on installing some sort of mind control device on you and using you against the Alliance.  

2. They've shown that they have no problem murdering Alliance military and civilian personnel.  

3. They're an illegal black ops organization that has gone rogue, so if you're interested in law and order you shouldn't help them.

4. Captain Anderson doesn't like them at all, and he was right about Saren.

5. They're responsible for those soldier dying on Akuze, and you might have been one of the only survivors from that unit.  

Seriously, that last bit pisses me off.  Early in the game, when you're on the shuttle with Miranda and Jacob, Jacob mentions the Akuze incident if it was part of your background, but you never even bring up Cerberus's involvement.  It's bull****.

Really enjoying this discussion, but I want to point out something. If Cerberous is as bad as we all know they are, and Shepard returns from the grave 2 years after being killed, and the Council thinks so little of Cerberous that they suspect THEM of being behind the abductions... now Shepard shows up working for the people you suspect might be involved in the kidnappings...

There is no way in HELL the Council should offer Shepard JACK. They don't know what she really is, and whether or not she can be trusted anymore. We know Anderson is holding out on you, as he admits it if you come back after Horizon. HE doesn't even fully trust you. I'm not trying to justify bad writing, but I think there's a really plausible story here where the Council is publicly not getting involved in the adductions and secretly trying to figure out what the hell is going on. They don't tell you any of this because you work for a terrorist organization who re-animated your corpse. So they give you your title back and hope you'll be useful in the future, but they're not betting on you.

That's my take anyway. 

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Ulicus wrote...

I'm at a total loss. How does the second sentence relate to the first?

Ive already said this more than once. Its perfectly clear the councils role in ME2 is to demonstrate just how alone Shepard really is, and how few options he has. TIM already tells him dont expect much from the council. Its forcing Shepard into a dark corner, trying to show hes without the backing he originally had (the alliance and the council), and overall make things seem "dark".

Only its clearly failed in many peoples eyes, since it seems forced, and people are instead questioning how the council can be almost so *willfully* stupid.

Im getting tired of spelling this out. If you dont understand the reference, you can always ignore it you know?

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 13 février 2010 - 02:48 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

marshalleck wrote...

Asking you to express your ideas a bit more fully is a jibe? You're paranoid.

And youre being disingenuous.

Calling someones view "asinine" is clearly a jibe, and the entire reason for the harsh responses Ive been giving you.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 13 février 2010 - 02:47 .

[Weskerr]

korraz wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?
Audio and Video recordings? Are worth nothing. Everybody and his mom will be able to shop some reapers in the video of the turian councilor (whos a jackass, btw.)
A mad half-machine spectre, dead, with an army of...geth.
A giant, extremely advanced ship, that resembles strikingly the Geth dropships. At least I thought in the beginning, that the dropships are parts of the big ships tentacles.
The advanced technology? Well, we know that the Geth made huge leaps on that and that they are pretty much ahead of us. And it's not even THAT advanced. In only two years we were able to analyse the main-weaponary, scale it down and put it on our own ships. So no proof there.

Their decisions affect the entire galaxy. They try to support you secretly. They reinstate you as spectre, so you can do what you want. I'm pretty sure they have their own investigators and they are setting up their forces. But they simply can't be sure. And, they are politicians! Everyone watches them. What good would it do to say "Yeah, theres a advanced machine race on the way and we can't do anything about it, so we are most likely all doomed." Panic. Chaos. Super-Awesome for the reapers. At the moment the people aren't ready for this. So they have to keep this up and work on something that solves that problem.
Mark my words, in ME3 the council will come to you and say "Hey, Shep, old lad. Glad to see you. Hey, we have that ship, over here. Super-Awesome ME-Drive. Impenetrable shields. Star-Destroying weapons. That sorts of thingy. Problem is, we only have one. How about flying around and bashing the **** out of people? Jolly, there you are. How about naming it Normandy SR-3?"

Can't add anything more.

[marshalleck]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Asking you to express your ideas a bit more fully is a jibe? You're paranoid.

And youre being disengenuous.

Calling someones view "asinine" is clearly a jibe, and the entire reason for my harsh responses Ive been giving you.

I didn't call your opinion asinine. I did quite clearly take issue with your approach, and that's what I was refering to when I said it was asnine. Why? Because saying "it's bad because it's bad" doesn't say anything useful or worthwhile.

I'm not your enemy here.

Modifié par marshalleck, 13 février 2010 - 02:49 .