329 réponses à ce sujet

[Looper128]

the council is kinda retarded xD ya just love to hate them.

[Sapienti]

mrfett wrote...

Really enjoying this discussion, but I want to point out something. If Cerberous is as bad as we all know they are, and Shepard returns from the grave 2 years after being killed, and the Council thinks so little of Cerberous that they suspect THEM of being behind the abductions... now Shepard shows up working for the people you suspect might be involved in the kidnappings...

There is no way in HELL the Council should offer Shepard JACK. They don't know what she really is, and whether or not she can be trusted anymore. We know Anderson is holding out on you, as he admits it if you come back after Horizon. HE doesn't even fully trust you. I'm not trying to justify bad writing, but I think there's a really plausible story here where the Council is publicly not getting involved in the adductions and secretly trying to figure out what the hell is going on. They don't tell you any of this because you work for a terrorist organization who re-animated your corpse. So they give you your title back and hope you'll be useful in the future, but they're not betting on you.

That's my take anyway. 

Lol agreed. Dink may feel that isolating Shepard from the Alliance and the Council was a poor choice but with the given storyline I think its entirely justified. I spend the majority of my free time reading several novels by several different writers and discussing them with friends. I wouldn't sit and defend truly bad writing but as you said this is very plausible. People's main complaints stem from porblems they have with game mechanics, the hype machine, EA or other disagreements.

[Nozybidaj]

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 13 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

[quote]Sharn01 wrote...

Just more poorly written ME1 decisions carried over to ME2, like every thing else other then Wrex who actually made some sense.





So,I guess you could write the transition better?

Otherwise you should listen to your own advice,and wait it out! I've got 4 letters for ya, would ya like a PM?

[Cancermeat]

Why don't they have names?

[GnusmasTHX]

They're not helping you. Anderson tells you as much. They reinstate you as a Spectre to get you to stfu and leave.

Even then, Sovereign was leaps and bounds more advanced than the geth. So what if we can reverse engineer a similar weapon? Sovereign had perfect mastery of that technology, he could fire up to 3 at once. It was a dreadnaught sized ship capable of landing planetside. Unprecedented.

Making something and finding something and copying it are two completely different paths.

There's no way to liken Sovereign to any geth technology. Because as advanced as they are, we can still kill them.

Sovereign mowing through the Citadel fleet was like a tank running through a primitive village and getting pelted with arrows.

Only Shepard made it possible to kill... Somehow.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

marshalleck wrote...

I didn't call your opinion asinine. I did quite clearly take issue with your approach, and that's what I was refering to when I said it was asnine. Why? Because saying "it's bad because it's bad" doesn't say anything useful or worthwhile.

I'm not your enemy here.

Ah I see. Somehow my opinion stopped being in line with most others here, and that its basically poorly written, and instead it managed to morph into "It sucks because I think it sucks".


"Youre paranoid".

Scuse me, Ill just go literally bang my head against a wall, since Ive been doing it figuratively for about the past 20 minutes.

[BobbyTheI]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

[marshalleck]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I didn't call your opinion asinine. I did quite clearly take issue with your approach, and that's what I was refering to when I said it was asnine. Why? Because saying "it's bad because it's bad" doesn't say anything useful or worthwhile.

I'm not your enemy here.

Ah I see. Somehow my opinion stopped being in line with most others here, and that its basically poorly written, and instead it managed to morph into "It sucks because I think it sucks".


"Youre paranoid".

Scuse me, Ill just go literally bang my head against a wall, since Ive been doing it figuratively for about the past 20 minutes.

Well I did gain something useful from our exchange. I now know that my concept of grimdark differs from your own.

Honestly, I thought the chat with the Council was comical more than anything, especially the turian Councilor with his obstinate behavior and ridiculous short-sightedness. It seemed to me like Bioware were intentionally sort of aping the player reactions to him on the forums. That's why I found it so difficult to believe that anyone could think there's anything grim or dark about it.

[Sapienti]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Lol

[Nozybidaj]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Yes because Soveriegn is obviously just your run of the mill frigate just like every other known ship in the galalxy.  There wouldn't have been anything special or unique about him like for example a giant human skeleton made from hundreds of thousands of liquified people inside of it.

[Thromun]

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...
... like doesn't Shepard have a Polaroid camera or something? Sensor logs on the normandy? Carbon-dating on the wreckage of Sovereign?

There is an even easier solution: Just let the Asari councilor do that mind merging thing with Shepard and she can see it for herself.
Shepard already had countless Asari messing with his head in ME1. One more "embrace eternity" won't hurt

[GnusmasTHX]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Thing is you were told it would come, from a guy who found it was coming from thousands of year old artifacts and ruins.

I mean the sentient part is irrelevant. All the Council needs to believe is that there are more coming.

It also happens that that Tank happened to somehow unite with a sky scraper that should predate the Tanks creation, yet somehow matches it perfectly, and in fact complements it in some way. The Tank then begins glowing red, and sending tubes into the sky scraper, doing God knows what with it.

Entirely normal behavior for a Tank, though. Doesn't warrant further investigation.

Sometimes I take TWO Dreadnaughts and plop them on top of millions  of year old towers and have them do weird things. But its weird because these millions of year old towers somehow accept the dreadnaughts that look like nothing ever before, and should only be at most 300 or so years old.

Oh and I forgot to mention, that tank seems completely uninterested in shooting and destroying ANYTHING until it combines with a million year old skyscraper.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[BobbyTheI]

Nozybidaj wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Yes because Soveriegn is obviously just your run of the mill frigate just like every other known ship in the galalxy.  There wouldn't have been anything special or unique about him like for example a giant human skeleton made from hundreds of thousands of liquified people inside of it.

"Yes, but... it's a really BIG TANK!  I mean, I've NEVER seen a tank like that!  No nation on earth has ever made a tank like that!  How could you NOT conclude it's alive and out to kill us?"

(And, um, what giant human skeleton?  You mean the one inside the Collector base, that was nowhere near the Citadel?)

[Nozybidaj]

BobbyTheI wrote...

"Yes, but... it's a really BIG TANK!  I mean, I've NEVER seen a tank like that!  No nation on earth has ever made a tank like that!  How could you NOT conclude it's alive and out to kill us?"

(And, um, what giant human skeleton?  You mean the one inside the Collector base, that was nowhere near the Citadel?)

Now you are just being deliberatly contrary with no argument.  As I clearly said, as an example.  We don't know what race Sovereign was made from, but if the human terminator we saw is how they make reapers than it is logical to assume that Sovereign was made the same way and that its remains would have been a part of the wreckage.

[Gemini1179]

Yep, the comical ignorance of the council was something I noted in ME1. I'm hoping there's a Paragon option in the third game where you're like: "Ok, you can't see the Reapers out the window, so you stay here and do your "Council" stuff while I evacuate the Citadel."

[Weskerr]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

@ Nozybijad - It was probably unintentional on your part, but you attributed Korraz's words to me. I simply quoted his post and said I agree with it

Modifié par Weskerr, 13 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[BobbyTheI]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Thing is you were told it would come, from a guy who found it was coming from thousands of year old artifacts and ruins.

I mean the sentient part is irrelevant. All the Council needs to believe is that there are more coming.

It also happens that that Tank happened to somehow unite with a sky scraper that should predate the Tanks creation, yet somehow matches it perfectly, and in fact complements it in some way. The Tank then begins glowing red, and sending tubes into the sky scraper, doing God knows what with it.

Entirely normal behavior for a Tank, though. Doesn't warrant further investigation.

Sometimes I take TWO Dreadnaughts and plop them on top of thousand of year old towers and have them do weird things.

Yes, and because bananas are shaped like our hands, then obviously God exists.

(No, really, people have made that argument.)

If the Council doesn't believe that the Reapers are sentient aliens and are, instead, giant ships, then who is in control of the ships?  The Geth.  What are the Council having Shepard do?  Fight the Geth.

So, the ship seemed almost designed to attack the Citadel specifically?  Well, obviously the Geth have more information about us than we realize.  Better REALLY go after them.  Since they're not sentient, after all, and just ships.

[Gemini1179]

Thromun wrote...

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...
... like doesn't Shepard have a Polaroid camera or something? Sensor logs on the normandy? Carbon-dating on the wreckage of Sovereign?

There is an even easier solution: Just let the Asari councilor do that mind merging thing with Shepard and she can see it for herself.
Shepard already had countless Asari messing with his head in ME1. One more "embrace eternity" won't hurt

QFT.

Although, it never really made sense to me in ME1 why the Council thought a completely meaningless backwater dock worker mentioning Saren's name was NOT unusual...

[Nozybidaj]

Weskerr wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

@ Nozybijad - It was probably unintentional on your part, but you attributed Korraz's words to me. I simply quoted his post and said I agree with it

My apologies.

[ckriley]

Wraith_3 wrote...

I think the Council is the equivalent of the U.N. The U.N. looks the other way on lots of things so they don't have to act. They wouldn't call what was happening in Africa genocide so they wouldn't have to stop it. Now they are ignoring the fact that Iran is trying to get nukes. They don't do their jobs and then someone has to step in and clean up the crap storm that could have been stopped. So I thought it was pretty realistic.

The parallels between the council and the UN were clear in the first game.  In fact, the first time I played ME1, I thought there was going to be a controversy.  Anderson's tirade about how the council always wants humanity to fix problems and clean up messes, but then always ignores them when they ask for aid on something was ripped straight from American politics.

It was pretty on the nose.

[Sapienti]

BobbyTheI wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Thing is you were told it would come, from a guy who found it was coming from thousands of year old artifacts and ruins.

I mean the sentient part is irrelevant. All the Council needs to believe is that there are more coming.

It also happens that that Tank happened to somehow unite with a sky scraper that should predate the Tanks creation, yet somehow matches it perfectly, and in fact complements it in some way. The Tank then begins glowing red, and sending tubes into the sky scraper, doing God knows what with it.

Entirely normal behavior for a Tank, though. Doesn't warrant further investigation.

Sometimes I take TWO Dreadnaughts and plop them on top of thousand of year old towers and have them do weird things.

Yes, and because bananas are shaped like our hands, then obviously God exists.

(No, really, people have made that argument.)

If the Council doesn't believe that the Reapers are sentient aliens and are, instead, giant ships, then who is in control of the ships?  The Geth.  What are the Council having Shepard do?  Fight the Geth.

So, the ship seemed almost designed to attack the Citadel specifically?  Well, obviously the Geth have more information about us than we realize.  Better REALLY go after them.  Since they're not sentient, after all, and just ships.

From their standpoint that argument makes perfect sense. Whether they were told beforehand or not wouldn't matter. To them all Shepard got right was the attack. And the rest was just skewed one way or another.

And who knows what were among his remains. The core could have been completely destroyed.

[BobbyTheI]

Thromun wrote...

Thomas_R_Roy wrote...
... like doesn't Shepard have a Polaroid camera or something? Sensor logs on the normandy? Carbon-dating on the wreckage of Sovereign?

There is an even easier solution: Just let the Asari councilor do that mind merging thing with Shepard and she can see it for herself.
Shepard already had countless Asari messing with his head in ME1. One more "embrace eternity" won't hurt

Problem with that is, how do they even KNOW that the beacons are absolutely true recountings of history?  For all anyone else knows, the beacons are just high-tech movie theaters, and Shepard has been given a chance to watch "Reapers 2: This Time It's Personal!"

Yeah, Saren went to a lot of trouble to destroy one, but the Council has already gone on record believing Saren is crazy, and that he would do things just to screw with people's minds, i.e. pretending some Prothean entertainment device is a really important MacGuffin.

[Computron2000]

Nozybidaj wrote...
Now you are just being deliberatly contrary with no argument.  As I clearly said, as an example.  We don't know what race Sovereign was made from, but if the human terminator we saw is how they make reapers than it is logical to assume that Sovereign was made the same way and that its remains would have been a part of the wreckage.

You missed out the part where it was said that Sovereign's wreck was scattered across the entire station (canon). Even the Council could not recover much of it.

Now lets say Sovereign was 10% filled with yucky colored goo. He got blown up. 3% of the goo immediate vaporised. 7% of the goo scattered onto the station, mixed with dead turians, humans, asari, salarian, etc, wreckage station wide.

The keepers immediately went into recovery mode, cleaning up the mess (canon). The goo could also very easily dried up (aka blood drying) causing cellular breakdown. Now how are you going to find a viable DNA sample of the goo?

[ckriley]

BobbyTheI wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Thing is you were told it would come, from a guy who found it was coming from thousands of year old artifacts and ruins.

I mean the sentient part is irrelevant. All the Council needs to believe is that there are more coming.

It also happens that that Tank happened to somehow unite with a sky scraper that should predate the Tanks creation, yet somehow matches it perfectly, and in fact complements it in some way. The Tank then begins glowing red, and sending tubes into the sky scraper, doing God knows what with it.

Entirely normal behavior for a Tank, though. Doesn't warrant further investigation.

Sometimes I take TWO Dreadnaughts and plop them on top of thousand of year old towers and have them do weird things.

Yes, and because bananas are shaped like our hands, then obviously God exists.

(No, really, people have made that argument.)

If the Council doesn't believe that the Reapers are sentient aliens and are, instead, giant ships, then who is in control of the ships?  The Geth.  What are the Council having Shepard do?  Fight the Geth.

So, the ship seemed almost designed to attack the Citadel specifically?  Well, obviously the Geth have more information about us than we realize.  Better REALLY go after them.  Since they're not sentient, after all, and just ships.

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm