329 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

[marshalleck]

So I guess the idea is that mass effect fields make Sovereign's remains completely impossible to analyze, since that's usually how everything else is explained.

[Sapienti]

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

I thought I touched on that in this thread. But the council concluded that the Reaper was built by the Geth after everything was over and done with. First they say "Saren convinced the Geth the Reaper is a god so they follow him" later they decide the Reaper is Geth made so they then change their tune to "Well if the Geth built the Reaper who was playing who?"

[mundus66]

Actually, i always got the impression that they just wanna deny it cause its convenient. Obviously Udina might not believe in the reapers since he is obviously just a power hungry fool.

But i felt that the rest of the council don't wanna start mass panic and they are just trying to ignore that Shepard is back, which is why they don't help him (obviously him working for Cerberus has to do with it too).

But seriously though, someone on the Citadel must have seen that the debris from Sovereign is more advanced than Geth technology, but is keeping it secret from the public.

[SilentSooYun]

I look at it like this:

1) A Reaper corpse, dead for 37 million years, managed to indoctrinate an entire Cerberus science team.

2) The Council holds seat in the control room of a massive Reaper construct that now plays home to half an exploded Reaper thanks to Our Stalwart Hero.



...or they could just be stupid.

[BobbyTheI]

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

Depends on how you read the word "convince."

The Geth are, in the end, a race of robots.  "Convincing" them, as even Legion himself admits, is basically just "changing a bit from 0 to 1."  Basically the Council's belief in what happened is sorta close to what actually happened, except that instead of Sovereign changing that bit, it was Saren.

Geth build Reaper.  Saren puts himself in charge of geth and reprogram them to believe the ship they themselves built is a god.  Geth, being just a race of dumb robots, agree.  (Remember that, until we meet Legion, most people believe geth weren't even intelligent enough to TALK.)

Iffy but, in the end, none of my theories are meant to be totally concrete.  All I'm saying that they're plausible enough that a Council, desperate not to believe that extermination of the entire cosmos is just around the corner, want to find ANY reason not to believe the truth.  I'm not saying the Council aren't WRONG; I'm just saying I can see the ways they can rationalize to themselves that they're RIGHT.

[ckriley]

Sapienti wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

I thought I touched on that in this thread. But the council concluded that the Reaper was built by the Geth after everything was over and done with. First they say "Saren convinced the Geth the Reaper is a god so they follow him" later they decide the Reaper is Geth made so they then change their tune to "Well if the Geth built the Reaper who was playing who?"

That really makes no sense because they clearly say in the same conversation that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper in the same way they convinced Shepard.  Then the say that Sovereign was built by the Geth, and that it 's all Geth technology.  Again, in the same meeting. 

[GnusmasTHX]

BobbyTheI wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Weskerr wrote...

I said it, and I'll say it again...

Has anyone aside of Shepard, Saren and Liara ever seen the visions? No.
Have we ever brought a real proof to them? No.

What have they got?

You mean aside from the giant Reaper that attacked the Citadel, destroyed most of the Council and Alliance fleets, killed thousands and thousands of people, and nearly took over the very heart of the galaxy, that every single person on the Citadel was witness to?

Aside from that, not much.

"Holy cow, that giant tank just stormed into the battlefield, killed our entire army, and is plowing through buildings like they're cardboard.  With that evidence, I can only conclude that the tank is a member of a sentient race of tanks that is out to kill all humanity.  It's the only logical conclusion!"

Thing is you were told it would come, from a guy who found it was coming from thousands of year old artifacts and ruins.

I mean the sentient part is irrelevant. All the Council needs to believe is that there are more coming.

It also happens that that Tank happened to somehow unite with a sky scraper that should predate the Tanks creation, yet somehow matches it perfectly, and in fact complements it in some way. The Tank then begins glowing red, and sending tubes into the sky scraper, doing God knows what with it.

Entirely normal behavior for a Tank, though. Doesn't warrant further investigation.

Sometimes I take TWO Dreadnaughts and plop them on top of thousand of year old towers and have them do weird things.

Yes, and because bananas are shaped like our hands, then obviously God exists.

(No, really, people have made that argument.)

If the Council doesn't believe that the Reapers are sentient aliens and are, instead, giant ships, then who is in control of the ships?  The Geth.  What are the Council having Shepard do?  Fight the Geth.

So, the ship seemed almost designed to attack the Citadel specifically?  Well, obviously the Geth have more information about us than we realize.  Better REALLY go after them.  Since they're not sentient, after all, and just ships.

No.. The fact that they're machines means they don't need a controller. They could be fulfilling their basic function.
It's also hard to believe that the geth know anything about the Citadel at all or at least more than the people that actually live  and study it, especially making it execute functions previously unseen and unexecuted since 50, 000 years ago.
And for what purpose?
According to the Council, Saren attacked the Citadel to eliminate the Council and gain a seat of power, yet Sovereign completely ignores the main fight and  Destiny Ascension / Council, attaches itself to the Citadel which is already under Saren's control, and locks himself inside... 
And no one wonders why they'd bench their ultimate-destruction weapon so it could fondle a giant phallus?

No one notices:

1. It's monstrous power, unlike anything else. (Indicative of it not being a geth creation.)
2. The fact that it completely ignores the fight/Destiny Ascension. (Not going after the Council.)
3. That it can somehow merge, naturally, with the Citadel Tower. (That they're related.)

At the very least 2 and 3 would raise some eyebrows, but nah.

[Conway044]

camcon2100 wrote...

Ok so at the end of ME1 the council is thanking you for saving them from the reapers. Now all of the sudden they dont exist. Could anyone explain what the hell happend???

I can't really help you because the council was turned into star dust at the end of my game . 
They were brain dead in the first game, so it seems unlikely they would suddenly get smarter in the sequel.  Especially not the Turian.

[ckriley]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

Depends on how you read the word "convince."

The Geth are, in the end, a race of robots.  "Convincing" them, as even Legion himself admits, is basically just "changing a bit from 0 to 1."  Basically the Council's belief in what happened is sorta close to what actually happened, except that instead of Sovereign changing that bit, it was Saren.

Geth build Reaper.  Saren puts himself in charge of geth and reprogram them to believe the ship they themselves built is a god.  Geth, being just a race of dumb robots, agree.  (Remember that, until we meet Legion, most people believe geth weren't even intelligent enough to TALK.)

Iffy but, in the end, none of my theories are meant to be totally concrete.  All I'm saying that they're plausible enough that a Council, desperate not to believe that extermination of the entire cosmos is just around the corner, want to find ANY reason not to believe the truth.  I'm not saying the Council aren't WRONG; I'm just saying I can see the ways they can rationalize to themselves that they're RIGHT.

What you just said is no different than a certain former president saying, "Well, it depends on what the definition of the word "is" is."

Kind of looks like you and others here are grasping for straws.

[Sapienti]

ckriley wrote...

Sapienti wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

I thought I touched on that in this thread. But the council concluded that the Reaper was built by the Geth after everything was over and done with. First they say "Saren convinced the Geth the Reaper is a god so they follow him" later they decide the Reaper is Geth made so they then change their tune to "Well if the Geth built the Reaper who was playing who?"

That really makes no sense because they clearly say in the same conversation that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper in the same way they convinced Shepard.  Then the say that Sovereign was built by the Geth, and that it 's all Geth technology.  Again, in the same meeting. 

But the conclusions are reached at different points in time. Speaking english there is no marker for far past and recent past in our language so you have to take out those meanings from the context. Plus he doesn't say "Saren coonvinced the Geth" just that he recruited them. They don't know how or why.  All they say is "He convinced the Geth the Reapers are real". Not "He convinced the Geth their ship was a Reaper". Lol. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. I don't think something so obvious would have slipped through.

[BobbyTheI]

ckriley wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

Depends on how you read the word "convince."

The Geth are, in the end, a race of robots.  "Convincing" them, as even Legion himself admits, is basically just "changing a bit from 0 to 1."  Basically the Council's belief in what happened is sorta close to what actually happened, except that instead of Sovereign changing that bit, it was Saren.

Geth build Reaper.  Saren puts himself in charge of geth and reprogram them to believe the ship they themselves built is a god.  Geth, being just a race of dumb robots, agree.  (Remember that, until we meet Legion, most people believe geth weren't even intelligent enough to TALK.)

Iffy but, in the end, none of my theories are meant to be totally concrete.  All I'm saying that they're plausible enough that a Council, desperate not to believe that extermination of the entire cosmos is just around the corner, want to find ANY reason not to believe the truth.  I'm not saying the Council aren't WRONG; I'm just saying I can see the ways they can rationalize to themselves that they're RIGHT.

What you just said is no different than a certain former president saying, "Well, it depends on what the definition of the word "is" is."

Kind of looks like you and others here are grasping for straws.

Yes, EXACTLY LIKE THE COUNCIL IS, WHICH IS ENTIRELY MY POINT!

I'm not entirely sure how what you said contradicts me, though. (I can make reference to random events from the past too; it doesn't change anything.)  As Legion said, geth do not have independent thought.  They have programming.  Change their programming, and they think differently.  That was the whole purpose of the Legion loyalty quest: to decide whether to change that programming back.  

Sovereign (and Saren, in the Council's imaginary scenario) didn't have to stand up and make a speech to the Geth saying, "Hey, you dumb robots!  That big thing hovering above your planet?  Yeah, that's a god."  He just changed some code. and the robots fall in line.  Geth don't have self-reflection, they don't sit back and think, "Wow, maybe we SHOULDN'T be worshipping that big squid thing."  They just do what the code says.

It's all fan ******, yes.  Is it something that could have filled in more within the game itself?  Yes.  But I have yet to see anybody present anything that makes it absolutely, incontrovertible that would convince the Council that big ship that nearly destroyed the Citadel was anything more than a big ship.

[GnusmasTHX]

Sapienti wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Sapienti wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

I thought I touched on that in this thread. But the council concluded that the Reaper was built by the Geth after everything was over and done with. First they say "Saren convinced the Geth the Reaper is a god so they follow him" later they decide the Reaper is Geth made so they then change their tune to "Well if the Geth built the Reaper who was playing who?"

That really makes no sense because they clearly say in the same conversation that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper in the same way they convinced Shepard.  Then the say that Sovereign was built by the Geth, and that it 's all Geth technology.  Again, in the same meeting. 

But the conclusions are reached at different points in time. Speaking english there is no marker for far past and recent past in our language so you have to take out those meanings from the context. Plus he doesn't say "Saren coonvinced the Geth" just that he recruited them. They don't know how or why.  All they say is "He convinced the Geth the Reapers are real". Not "He convinced the Geth their ship was a Reaper". Lol. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. I don't think something so obvious would have slipped through.

Actually they tell you that Saren convinced them by being a charismatic leader (or something along those lines)... As if that would really matter to robots with barely animal intelligence.

But apparently you find out that it was a math error.

Lesson here is that the Council is always wrong.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 03:39 .

[Sapienti]

GnusmasTHX wrote...


No.. The fact that they're machines means they don't need a controller. They could be fulfilling their basic function.
It's also hard to believe that the geth know anything about the Citadel at all or at least more than the people that actually live  and study it, especially making it execute functions previously unseen and unexecuted since 50, 000 years ago.
And for what purpose?
According to the Council, Saren attacked the Citadel to eliminate the Council and gain a seat of power, yet Sovereign completely ignores the main fight and  Destiny Ascension / Council, attaches itself to the Citadel which is already under Saren's control, and locks himself inside... 
And no one wonders why they'd bench their ultimate-destruction weapon so it could fondle a giant phallus?

No one notices:

1. It's monstrous power, unlike anything else. (Indicative of it not being a geth creation.)
2. The fact that it completely ignores the fight/Destiny Ascension. (Not going after the Council.)
3. That it can somehow merge, naturally, with the Citadel Tower. (That they're related.)

At the very least 2 and 3 would raise some eyebrows, but nah.

They may not have even noticed 3. And its hard for US to believe the Geth are capable of that. But who's to say what the council finds hard to believe. I found this to refresh memories and give us something else to pick apart/debate about:  

These are all points that you bring up in your argument about the Reapers being real but they're not evidence. Its like getting caught in the legal system trying to convince someone the guy did it when:
You know he had an argument with the victim that night.
You know that he beat the victim before
You know that he has a violent past
But you can't put him at the scene.

And yea I agree, the council seems to always be wrong. I know they were supposed to ****** people off, but I wonder if Bioware is sitting back reading some of these posts and going "Wow...what have we unleashed?"

Modifié par Sapienti, 13 février 2010 - 03:44 .

[ckriley]

Sapienti wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Sapienti wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

ckriley wrote...

Except that the council claimed that the Reaper was built by the Geth while out the other end of their mouths saying that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Perfectly logical.

/sarcasm

Hah, I didn't pick up on that before but you are right. Good catch.

I thought I touched on that in this thread. But the council concluded that the Reaper was built by the Geth after everything was over and done with. First they say "Saren convinced the Geth the Reaper is a god so they follow him" later they decide the Reaper is Geth made so they then change their tune to "Well if the Geth built the Reaper who was playing who?"

That really makes no sense because they clearly say in the same conversation that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper in the same way they convinced Shepard.  Then the say that Sovereign was built by the Geth, and that it 's all Geth technology.  Again, in the same meeting. 

But the conclusions are reached at different points in time. Speaking english there is no marker for far past and recent past in our language so you have to take out those meanings from the context. Plus he doesn't say "Saren coonvinced the Geth" just that he recruited them. They don't know how or why.  All they say is "He convinced the Geth the Reapers are real". Not "He convinced the Geth their ship was a Reaper". Lol. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. I don't think something so obvious would have slipped through.

I'm going to go back to an earlier save game right now and replay that part.  I'm pretty sure they say he convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a Reaper and that's how he was able to get the Geth to support him.

Roughly 30 seconds later they say Sovereign was built by the Geth.

[GnusmasTHX]

Yeah... That video just says that Saren had to convince the geth that the REAPERS were real, but also had them build one... Sovereign.

And I'm not going for direct evidence, I'm going for inconsistencies that make room for different interpretations of events.

The fact that Sovereign doesn't even directly engage the Citadel fleet is the largest one. If not to fight, what was its purpose?

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 03:48 .

[Sapienti]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Yeah... That video just says that Saren had to convince the geth that the Reapers were real, but also had them build one...

And I'm not going for direct evidence, I'm going for inconsistencies that make room for different interpretations of events.

The fact that Sovereign doesn't even directly engage the Citadel fleet is the largest one. If not to fight, what was its purpose?

Well the council could see it as "A Geth built ship and not a Reaper" or some other kind of BS lol. I wouldn't be surprised if these very points were brought up in a more substantial manner in ME3.

[GnusmasTHX]

Sapienti wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Yeah... That video just says that Saren had to convince the geth that the Reapers were real, but also had them build one...

And I'm not going for direct evidence, I'm going for inconsistencies that make room for different interpretations of events.

The fact that Sovereign doesn't even directly engage the Citadel fleet is the largest one. If not to fight, what was its purpose?

Well the council could see it as "A Geth built ship and not a Reaper" or some other kind of BS lol. I wouldn't be surprised if these very points were brought up in a more substantial manner in ME3.

They need to be spread bare-ass on my lap and get a spanking for their ig'nance.

[BattleVisor]

The turians recovered enough salvage to invent the new Thanix cannon. Which we used to bust open that collector ship.

[GnusmasTHX]

And Cerberus enough to make some of EDI, and quite possibly the core.

[Sapienti]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Sapienti wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Yeah... That video just says that Saren had to convince the geth that the Reapers were real, but also had them build one...

And I'm not going for direct evidence, I'm going for inconsistencies that make room for different interpretations of events.

The fact that Sovereign doesn't even directly engage the Citadel fleet is the largest one. If not to fight, what was its purpose?

Well the council could see it as "A Geth built ship and not a Reaper" or some other kind of BS lol. I wouldn't be surprised if these very points were brought up in a more substantial manner in ME3.

They need to be spread bare-ass on my lap and get a spanking for their ig'nance.

Yea...and the Asari should get twice the punishment.

[Destructo-Bot]

Thomas_R_Roy wrote... lots of stuff....

I like your posts. You've got a bit more tact than Stanley Woo at least

But I wanted to thank all of the Bioware members who particpate on the forum anyway, tact or no

[GnusmasTHX]

Sapienti wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Sapienti wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Yeah... That video just says that Saren had to convince the geth that the Reapers were real, but also had them build one...

And I'm not going for direct evidence, I'm going for inconsistencies that make room for different interpretations of events.

The fact that Sovereign doesn't even directly engage the Citadel fleet is the largest one. If not to fight, what was its purpose?

Well the council could see it as "A Geth built ship and not a Reaper" or some other kind of BS lol. I wouldn't be surprised if these very points were brought up in a more substantial manner in ME3.

They need to be spread bare-ass on my lap and get a spanking for their ig'nance.

Yea...and the Asari should get twice the punishment.

She is the oldest. Naughty girl should know better....

[Gemini1179]

All these arguments aside, could YOU, being on the council, REALLY take the chance that Shepard is wrong? You don't even have to announce to the species in Citadel space that the Reapers are real and are coming, you simply start putting forth procedures to build up defenses throughout the galaxy, under the guise of thwarting another Geth attack if need be.



In the end, I'm siding with "plot device".



Also, since just about everyone at BioWare says that this is their "Empire Strikes Back", the hero needed to be put in a bad place with few allies where no clear resolution would be the result.

[GnusmasTHX]

Gemini1179 wrote...

All these arguments aside, could YOU, being on the council, REALLY take the chance that Shepard is wrong? You don't even have to announce to the species in Citadel space that the Reapers are real and are coming, you simply start putting forth procedures to build up defenses throughout the galaxy, under the guise of thwarting another Geth attack if need be.

In the end, I'm siding with "plot device".

Also, since just about everyone at BioWare says that this is their "Empire Strikes Back", the hero needed to be put in a bad place with few allies where no clear resolution would be the result.

In that case Kaiden or Ashley should've been captured and kept in stasis by a remnant group of Collector's, only to be found on the players "homeworld" or place of birth.