255 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Most games I've been in ran that way too, unless either the setting had cheap and easy resurrection or the game system wasn't particularly lethal in the first place.

D&D's kind of a problem, since the system's always been quite lethal -- more lethal than actual combat, even, since incapacitation is much rarer than outright death. 3.0 crit rules actually made this aspect even worse by putting so much variability into damage rolls. OTOH, at least you don't lose a point of CON for being raised anymore.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 février 2010 - 11:09 .

[Realmzmaster]

I was not just talking about BG1 or 2. I said Bioware and Black Isles games which included Icewind dale I & II and others. BG ! & BG 2 are story driven games where the main character is the bhaalspawn how does that account for the other games?

Simple it was a design decision. All of it is a design decision. Which does not change the basic fact that this is not D & D on which previous Bioware and Black Isle games were based.

Bioware does not have to have permadeath in its new IP. It does not have to ape D & D.



Also your chess analogy is incorrect. Checkmate is an alteration of the Persian word Shah Mat which means the King is ambushed or defeated. It is a misconception that it means the King is dead. That comes from the Arabic word Mata which means dead. Since chess spread from the Islamic world to Europe, the Europeans mangled the use of the word.

For military and political reasons it was far more important to capture a king than kill him. Also the king is never truly captured, the game ends because the king no longer has any legal defensive moves.

[Vengeful Nature]

Skimmed through your post, TC, and, whilst it is very long, I agree with the sentiment. You've also endeared me with your freakish memory of BG2, which I share. :happy:

I'd be tempted to say "just play it on easy", but that's probably been trod over before and would do the gist of your post a disservice. If it helps, there is no expectation or reward for playing it on higher difficulties. Like it or not, though, a certain level of stat-tweaking is expected in this sort of RPG, with the difficulty only really demanding the extent to which you do it. BG definately had it, and even expected you to get the general gist, at the very least, of it's ruleset.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 18 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[Red Frostraven]

Also your chess analogy is incorrect. Checkmate is an alteration of the Persian word Shah Mat which means the King is ambushed or defeated. It is a misconception that it means the King is dead. That comes from the Arabic word Mata which means dead. Since chess spread from the Islamic world to Europe, the Europeans mangled the use of the word.
For military and political reasons it was far more important to capture a king than kill him. Also the king is never truly captured, the game ends because the king no longer has any legal defensive moves.

My chess analogy is indeed correct in the context in which it was intended, because the point was: You don't get your OTHER pieces back untill you "reload" or start anew, and when your main character is defeated, but not dead -- the game ends.
There's no rules for getting your pieces back. (Excepting of course, the optional rule of pawns being capable of becoming queens. But that doesn't give you your queen back, it only makes a pawn a queen.)

Make a mistake, or lose a character, and it's there to haunt you for the rest of the plot.

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Skimmed through your post, TC,
and, whilst it is very long, I agree with the sentiment. You've also
endeared me with your freakish memory of BG2, which I share. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]

Like it or not, though, a certain level of stat-tweaking
is expected in this sort of RPG, with the difficulty only really
demanding the extent to which you do it. BG definately had it, and even
expected you to get the general gist, at the very least, of it's
ruleset.

I've even downloaded the main theme to my "music without lyrics" playlist.


It's effing EPIC!
Just LISTEN to that, and remember Imoen, that little brat who turned out quite OK in the end... Jaheira, and her loss... The betrayal of Yoshimo... Irenicus, who was in fact tricked by his sister in youth, driven by ambitions, later tortured by his kind for his crime, and he only did it all because he was AFRAID TO DIE ONE DAY!!

I've come more to terms with this game beeing a spiritual successor of Diablo II when it comes to combat, with the plot depth of Oblivion, and some of the feel and severity of the story from Baldur's Gate.

...
I just wanted to roleplay, and not feel like my character is an effing newt for actually putting four points into willpower because it fit his character to be tireless and regenerate stamina faster.
I will prevail this one time through, and then I WILL play the game as intended:
Min-maxing a mage and soloing the game on nightmare difficulty, trying to beat the game in less than 10 hours.

... That's bitterness speaking for me in the last paragraph there, but I swear: I will complete the game in 10 hours, solo, with a mage, in nightmare -- if only to prove my point.
I hope it's impossible, but fear it might be very much possible.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 18 février 2010 - 01:03 .

[Destrier77]

Why are you doing that? I missed what it would prove.

[soteria]

My chess analogy is indeed correct in the context in which it was intended, because the point was: You don't get your OTHER pieces back untill you "reload" or start anew, and when your main character is defeated, but not dead -- the game ends.

There's no rules for getting your pieces back. (Excepting of course, the optional rule of pawns being capable of becoming queens. But that doesn't give you your queen back, it only makes a pawn a queen.)

It's actually a very common rule. And Chess =/= an RPG, so what does it matter if you get "your" queen back or a queen that is functionally and technically identical to your original queen? Chess pieces are not killed. They are captured, or "taken." You misunderstand the terminology. No one says, "He killed my pawn," they say, "He took my pawn." Bad example for your case.

[Realmzmaster]

Pieces in chess (Western, Japanese (shogi and go) or Chinese (Xiangqi) are captured not killed. Example in shogi a captured piece can return to the board as a move for the capturing player. It is called a drop. So captured pieces on either side can re-enter the game. One of the reason why all chess pieces are considered captured and not killed.
Another example, western chess. If the pawn is promoted it is replaced with a captured piece from the opposing player if the player has captured the requested piece. If not then and only then does an extra piece (of the requested type) come into the game. It is a substitution the captured piece gets returned in exchange for the pawn. The pawn can be promoted to any other piece except the king. It cannot remain a pawn.

Also in go territory is captured. All thstones captured are returned to the board to facilitate the point count. The point is the pieces are not killed, but captured.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 18 février 2010 - 06:04 .

[Fluffykeith]

I may be being dense, but I don't get this "min-max" idea that putting points into Willpower is a waste...at least I don't get it in respect to 2hander warriors. When I was playing mine it seemed very evident that I'd need willpower (and thus stamina) to be able to make effective and fun use of the abilities. So I put at least a point into willpower almost every level. I think that if I hadn't the character would have been lot less fun and less utility effective.



And it made sense from an RP perspective too. It certainly didn't feel "nerfed" or "newt" or whatever.

[marais]

so much teal deer!



i couldn't get past the second paragraph.

[Mlai00]

So you found losing companions merely annoying and arbitary, and never felt a sense of loss when your romance character dies and you continue without that person, and without the gear?
How did your PnP players take it when one of their characters died?
I've always respected death in games, as a natural foundation changing hazard rather than something arbitary and annoying: Permanent death is more NATURAL (even in most fantasy settings) than temporary "whoops I died " death systems.

So when you play a RPG, once you die the first time you should just uninstall the game and sell it on eBay.

Edit:  My mistake.  I actually meant -- So when you play a RPG, once you die the first time, you should delete all your saved games, and start a fresh game from the very beginning.

Heh, I'll bet this guy does it, too.

Edit #2: Unless... the game has a pre-made main player-character, such as Mass Effect.  In that case, you must uninstall the game and sell it off, LOL.

Modifié par Mlai00, 18 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[Red Frostraven]

Fluffykeith wrote...

I may be being dense, but I don't get this "min-max" idea that putting points into Willpower is a waste...

You do get a lot of stamina per level, too..

+5 stamina per level to be precise.
+5 stamina per point in willpower

With a willpower starting at 10, at level 10 -- you have 100 stamina; 50 from levels, 50 from base willpower.

At level 11, if you get 11 willpower, you'll have 110 stamina instead of 105 with 10 willpower.
At level 11, if you get 15 willpower, you'll have 130 stamina instead of 105 with 10 willpower
At level 20, if you get 20 willpower, you'll have 200 stamina instead of 150 with 10 willpower.

... Then comes the issue with three free points of willpower on the way... decreasing the split between base and light investment, not to mention armor that boost stamina by 25: effectively giving 5 points in willpower...

Compare that to each point in dexterity:
Adds 1 defense
Adds 0.5 physical resistance
Adds 0.5 attack
Adds 1 to ranged combat modifier

Willpower adds 0.5 to mental resistance, to be sure, but... come on!
+1 defense, 0.5 physical resistance, 0.5 attack, +1 to ranged attacks, added damage for piercing weapons
versus
+5 stamina, 0.5 mental resistance?

Now consider the items needed to mitigate a 5 point investment in either direction:
You need 5 points of dexterity in one item slot to make up for picking 5 willpower, or you need 25 stamina to make up for taking 5 points of dexterity.

+25 stamina items are rather common compared to +5 dexterity items.

Finally:
Compare willpower to other non-main warrior stats:

+13 willpower (including 3 points from a certain place)
+65 stamina, +13 mental resistance

+13 dexterity (including 3 points from a certain place)
+13 defense, +13 ranged attack, +6.5 physical resistance, +6.5 attack, increases damage from piercing weapons

+13 constitution (including 3 points from a certain place)
+65 health, +6.5 physical resistance

All of Wade's superior armor sets add 25 stamina.
Very many helms add up to 25 mental resistance.

That, and the amount of stamina you have does not increase stamina regeneration.

Had willpower increased stamina regeneration, it WOULD have been worthwile, allowing you to use your talents more often.

Currently, you need 8 points invested in willpower to be able to activate any ONE 40 stamina cost talent ONCE more in combat.
...
... Not every talent with a 40 stamina cost once more in combat, but one single talent with a 40 stamina cost, one time, in combat.
To use more talents, stamina regeneration is the way to go.
Naturally, a warrior regenerates 1 stamina every 2 seconds, 1.5 stamina with the combat training skill rank 2.
In a combat lasting for 1 minute, +2 combat stamina regeneration yields an additional 40 stamina every 40 seconds.

Some items add +2 combat stamina regeneration, and that enchantment is better throughout a combat lasting for more than 40 seconds than an +8 willpower enchantment would have been on that item.

That is HARSH.

(At least compared to having 8 defense throughout the entire combat and +4 to all attack rolls)

Sure. If you want to use a heapload of sustained skills, you can take willpower early on.
But later on, that willpower will be useless, when you can sustain all your sustained talents WHILE beeing capable of using every activated talent once.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 18 février 2010 - 01:16 .

[Mlai00]

For a guy who decries min-maxing, you've really looked into all of this.

I just put points in whatever seems to make sense for the chara, and if it feels good in combat, I go with it.

Does that mean I roleplay more hardcore than you?

[Red Frostraven]

Mlai00 wrote...

For a guy who decries min-maxing, you've really looked into all of this.
I just put points in whatever seems to make sense for the chara, and if it feels good in combat, I go with it.
Does that mean I roleplay more hardcore than you?

I am a powergamer, minmaxer. But I also play soccer. I roleplay, too.
But I keep each type of game separate. I don't play soccer when I powergame, I don't play soccer when I roleplay, I don't powergame when I roleplay.

I have ONE roleplaying character where I've put 10 points into cunning, despite the character not benefitting at all from that investment, because he had high intelligence in D&D.

[Fluffykeith]

Interesting breakdown of the stats there. Thanks.



However it makes me wonder if I was doing something wrong, because in the late stages of the game I was wearing the heavy dragonscale and zapping off several War Crys, at least one 2handed sweep, several of the rebuff attacks, and one each of the power attacks, with 2 active sustainables and a Holy Smite if there was a Mage. Every fight.

And I sure as hell didn't FEEL weak...

[Red Frostraven]

Fluffykeith wrote...

Interesting breakdown of the stats there. Thanks.

However it makes me wonder if I was doing something wrong, because in the late stages of the game I was wearing the heavy dragonscale and zapping off several War Crys, at least one 2handed sweep, several of the rebuff attacks, and one each of the power attacks, with 2 active sustainables and a Holy Smite if there was a Mage. Every fight.
And I sure as hell didn't FEEL weak...

By all means.
In most encounters, you reap and ravage within 40 seconds.
But fact remains, 8 willpower only allows ONE more use of a 40 stamina talent.
With 25 fatigue, that 40 stamina cost becomes 50 stamina -- and you need 10 willpower to use it once more.

But I suspect you have that talent which causes you to get stamina after each kill... which further helps mitigate the need for stamina.

The 5 stamina per level will subdue you into believing that the willpower investment helps more than they actually do.

With my roleplaying character, I remember a time at level 8 when I couldn't activate Momentum and use Riposte.
At level 14, I can activate Momentum, then use riposte AND another talent like dual weapon sweep.
6 levels, plus 3 points of willpower from you-know-where, made a heapload of difference.

If you NEVER run out of stamina, but constantly have enough to use any talent that has cooled down, you have a perfect amount of willpower for that level, assuming you have all the sustained talents you want active activated.

I'm exaggerating the consequences of taking willpower a bit, it's not ineffective, it's simply not as effective as some of the options like dexterity.
Willpower is more important for fighters than magic, and for high defense characters willpower is more important than constitution (Sustained talents galore leads to more defense which leads to less loss of health -- or to more enemies killed which leads to less possibilities of getting hit).

...
...
...
I'm merely underwhelmed by magic and willpower for fighters.
Why oh why doesn't magic add magic resistance to non-mages?!?!?

Not to mention willpower for mages, who have the cheating lyrium pots AND mana regeneration items.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 18 février 2010 - 03:00 .

[DragonDefender]

No true roleplaying is usually done through two mediums one is live action and the other is pencil and paper ( and internet pen and paper included for this discussion). True roleplaying has no business in video games, it would be nearly impossible to create as many varied responses to any given situation that is required to carry out true roleplaying.

[Red Frostraven]

I know this. When discussing roleplaying in computergames I do mean in a cRPG setting, comparing the game to:
The Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls, Fallout.
Those are just some examples of cRPGs that are more or less successful in providing a very good RPG experience, despite the limitations of a computer program.

There's these little things that are missing.
Too many enemies just HAVE to fight to their deaths before they surrender, and get revived by their "on death" scripts, rather than there beeing a chance of them actually dying from a critical hit, or them surrendering if they get hit up to 50% of their health.

The game is very good, and a very good roleplaying game -- but there's also a lot of design DECISIONS that seem to be targeting the action-game market: Death doesn't matter at all, people just get up -- even many friendly NPCs get up after death, instead of you losing the quest.
(Not the main quest with vital NPC, subquests with nonvital NPCs that could have died without breaking the plot.)

Edit...
I was a bit unfair, using the only example of roleplaying that Dragon Age did well: Many enemies DID surrender. But while many did, an awful lot fought before doing so.
...
...
...
It wasn't unfair. The whole "going down fighting, before we talk about it over a hot cup of coco if you win" got pretty old about the fifth time it was used.

It's nice for the story for enemies to parlay, but... when I have 4 skillpoints in coercion, I want to AVOID a fight, not to talk my party out of having to deal 1 damage to the enemy and killing him AFTER the fight is over.

Dragon Age was BOTH good and cheesy when it came to surrender and parley.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 19 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Posting on a forum is a type of communication. Sprawling, badly formatted, illogical posts that veer away from your point into personal antidotes (I’m sorry you started taking medication after your friend died in Kosovo, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the game) don’t help your case at all.

You’d be better to sit down. Write out what you want, a few reasons as to why this is a good thing, and then engage in dialogue when people come to question/support/criticize your idea.

 
Your point loses it's bite when you say antidotes but really meant anecdotes. It's like deflating the LZ 129 Hindenburg in mid-air.  Not many caught that, others let it go but your first post after the originals set the tone for the whole thread (which already had a bad tone).  An antidote counteracts a poison. An anecdote is a short, free-standing tale narrating an interesting or amusing biographical incident. I don't think anything that happened to this guy in Kosovo was amusing or short. Therefore anecdote (much less antidote) makes no sense for the description of his meanderings.

Modifié par AnnaBananaBamBamBoo, 18 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[soteria]

Your point loses it's bite when you say antidotes but really meant anecdotes. It's like deflating the LZ 129 Hindenburg in mid-air. Not many caught that, others let it go but your first post after the originals set the tone for the whole thread (which already had a bad tone). An antidote counteracts a poison. An anecdote is a short, free-standing tale narrating an interesting or amusing biographical incident. I don't think anything that happened to this guy in Kosovo was amusing or short. Therefore anecdote (much less antidote) makes no sense for the description of his meanderings.

No, the OP set the tone for the thread, and did a good job of maintaining it with rambling, semi-coherent and overly long posts. You should have seen the OP before he edited it. Also, your definition for anecdote is off. In common usage, an anecdote does not have to be amusing, and according to merriam-webster's it can be interesting, amusing, OR biographical. So there. 

Amusing would be the most common definition, but it's not exclusive.

Modifié par soteria, 18 février 2010 - 10:06 .

[Fluffykeith]

Not wanting to be too nit-picky, but isn't it a wee bit rich to be acting all superior about the OPs rambling posts...by taking to thread off in a random tangent about the dictionary definition if "anecdote"?

[DragonDefender]

Red Frostraven wrote...

I know this. When discussing roleplaying in computergames I do mean in a cRPG setting, comparing the game to:
The Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls, Fallout.
Those are just some examples of cRPGs that are more or less successful in providing a very good RPG experience, despite the limitations of a computer program.

There's these little things that are missing.
Too many enemies just HAVE to fight to their deaths before they surrender, and get revived by their "on death" scripts, rather than there beeing a chance of them actually dying from a critical hit, or them surrendering if they get hit up to 50% of their health.

The game is very good, and a very good roleplaying game -- but there's also a lot of design DECISIONS that seem to be targeting the action-game market: Death doesn't matter at all, people just get up -- even many friendly NPCs get up after death, instead of you losing the quest.
(Not the main quest with vital NPC, subquests with nonvital NPCs that could have died without breaking the plot.)

 I see what you mean now. Unfortuntely in todays world most people attention spans are about the life span of a gad fly (24 hrs) i.e. not really all that long. If there were was not as much action in the story  telling then the people would play it once and not come back to the title. ( its like giving someone meth and telling them to sit still).

 I can say I agree with you I would love to see some classic RP stuff in these games, but we are just a very small niche market atm.

[Red Frostraven]

Random bioware official about all DLC content beeing stripped away from  Awakening
Dragon Age: Origins DLC (from DAO or other prior DLC) is not available in Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening as we've already said.

While
I know some fans are not happy with this, the main reason is, due to
the advanced level of Awakening, the items you want to bring in would
be rapidly less effective than the materials you start with or find
early on in the game. Yes, in DA:O Starfang (or similar) are very
powerful, but since you can reach level 30+ in Awakening, they would be
ineffectual.

Trust me, there are heaps of cool new armors,
weapons, spells, etc that you will want to use in Awakening that you
will quickly learn to appreciate even more than your DLC items from
DAO. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png


../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png

This.

I will lose my KING's ITEMS, my MENTOR'S SWORD, the LAST survivor from the onslaught's sword and shield...
But despite losing those very, very heavy roleplaying items, I will get BETTER loot quite fast!

Another blatant evidence that powergamers are in the driver's seat, and the roleplayers are in it for the ride.
Problem is, the bridge is out, and the powergamer believes he can make the jump.

...
Besides, this is obviously a LIE, which I find quite disturbing!!
They took away the effing most story related items in the GAME; Cailen's armaments, Duncan's sword... and tell us they took them away because the items in Awakening are so much better?

...
...
...
...

I would have said something along the lines of: "I can't find the words" -- but I literally can't, because... I can't.

...
Ok... I'll try..:
How about my character wanting to keep Cailan's armor for freaking ROLEPLAYING reasons, filling up one of the 100 item slots my character has available?

...
I don't care that it's ineffective, it's the effing dead king's armor!!


AND I'm QUITE sure that my character would PREFER to start with a somewhat decent set of items, than to start effing NAKED because he only wears DLC from sword, helmet, ring, belt, armor, gloves and boots, and he even got the effing shield on the freaking switch!

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 19 février 2010 - 01:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

So they remove the DLC items for story purposes. Not the first time, except going from BG1 to BG2 they were subtler about it. If you carried over a character from BG1 to BG2, your character lost all previous items because he was kidnapped and imprisoned. Nice way to strip characters with overpowered items.Same mechanic has been used in other crpgs and their expansions. Here they simply tell you upfront.

I think it would have been better if they weave it into the story. If you decide to import your character. Your character is required to relinquish the King's armor because it is the property of the state. Or you were attack by a band of blood mages looking for revenge in the forest while out recruiting for new wardens, stripped of all items and left for dead. You are still alive, but have to find equipment to surivive. Or better yet track down the blood mages to regain your lost items.

Otherwise you will start as the warden commander from Orlais with the equipment you own. It would then be part of the overall story.

[Rendar666]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually, you can beat the game without a mage, but you must have one of your companions or PC take points in herbalism. Unless you plan on beating the game using only the potions you can buy or find. Beating the game without a mage is tough. but doable. I like to beat the game with my tank and ranger party. Instead of a 4 member group you can have a 7 member group (5 on the consoles). You have your PC take ranger at level 7. Lelianna and Zervan take ranger at level 14.
There are also other ways to beat the game without a mage.
The problem is OP wants the game to fit his character instead of creating a character that flows with the game story. An old D & D character should work quite well in old D & D settings (Forgotten realms,etc). DA:O is not D & D.
The other fact is that CRPGs are not p n p. No CRPG is going to be able to account for everything a DM can.
All CRPGs pay homage to the granddaddy of RPGs, but do not have to copy it. (T & T, Fantasy Trip, Runequesi, GURPS come to mind.) Would the exact same character work the same in each of these RPGS. I doubt it without some or many modifications.
DA:O is not D & D. DA:O is build as the spiritual successor to BG2, not a clone. It differs by the very fact it is not based on the D & D ruleset. It is Bioware's own intellectual property. Whether you agree or not is a moot point.

W/E. I'm just going to call the OP an annoying masochist who needs to gtfo and stop complaining.... And yes, I cam compare DA:O to D&D in the respect that if you don't have a true HEALER class you will get effed a lot. You can't survive every encounter just drinking potions in DA:O or D&D because it takes time to drink potions (time you don't have when battling overwhelming amounts of darkspawn and the occational dragon)... Playing without a mage and only using potions is, well, is pretty much retarded. Argue if you want, it's, imho, the truth.

Also, to those talking about role playing: In Dungeons and Dragons, any role playing game to be honest, where you are tasked with fighting overwhelming odds you take help where you can get it. If, say, you need to fight an army of two hundred orcs and a mage, who doesn't seem like the nicest person offers to help, honestly, will you refuse their help because you are good? No, you realize that without their help you will die. When it comes down to it, the OP is playing based on his own personal thoughts of Morrigan. I didn' think once through my time playing with her that she would betray me. Not once. But, once again, the OP has his choice but he's got to live with it.

BTW, in D&D I've got this badass dark elf who has two long swords +5 holy, flaming, icy, frost burst, flame burst and trip and disarm specialist. He can do upwards of 130-145 damage average a round with his full attack.... And he's level 20 and he's got like 6 level 18-20 level friends of varying alignments. He even traveled with my other level 26 Rakshasa Battle Mage, who has an army 7,000 strong, in Ravenloft. Beause you needed to know.

Modifié par Rendar666, 23 février 2010 - 06:03 .

[Vb Dude]

ouch, wall of text...these problems don't seem much of an issue since I'm having too much fun playing on NORMAL or ever CASUAL mode.

Try doing that before posting a ridiculously long rant. Send that to BioWare instead of eye-raping everyone who attempts to read it....luckily I'm immune to eye-rape but how would you like it if:
someonepostedaridiculouslylongrantthatsbasicallyjustawalloftextwithoddlyhiglightedwords wherethereisapossibilityofsummingup allofyourpointsintoonneatlyarrangedparagraph. FurthermoreIwouldrevisegrammar sinceyoudonotseemtomakesenseatsomeparts andyougoonpointlesstripsintoyour"previousgamesI haveplayed"wonderlandwhichseemstobeprettyirrelevanttothetopicafteryouhave reapeateditaboutfiftytimes.

Good day.

Modifié par Vb Dude, 25 février 2010 - 02:34 .