255 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Herr Uhl wrote...
You ever been stabbed by a pen? It hurts.

Have you ever been beheaded by a sharpened keyboard? If not, you don't know pain!

[mousestalker]

This is an RPG, if I want to go through the game with all my companions in their underwear and you want the entire party to max their strength and wear massive armour, we can both do that. Someone else min-maxing does not effect my game play in the slightest. The only thought that crosses my mind when someone comes onto the forums and boasts about their builds is how cruel classmates must have been to them.



I do not care if I get my temporary companions gear to my inventory, Daveth and Jory always go through the Joining in their underwear when I play. It's my game and it always makes me laugh. You may go ahead and mod in the Ultimate Sword of Uberness, I just want a mod that gives Alistair a clown nose.

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
You ever been stabbed by a pen? It hurts.

Have you ever been beheaded by a sharpened keyboard? If not, you don't know pain!

I don't think that even antibiotics would cure that.

Edit: And an unsharpened one would be more painful.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 13 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[Sarielle]

Red Frostraven wrote...


Who said I didn't use stealth?

Did I? Can you quote me on that?
I
Wait... You don't KNOW what roleplaying IS do you?

To be fair, jumping down somebody's throat for missing ONE skill in a billion word, rambling post is a bit over-the-top, wouldn't you agree?

Also...I'd argue RP means different things to different people. You're well on the way to looking hypocritical, if I may say so.

[RangerSG]

First, you could not beat Baldur's Gate on any difficulty level with any build without some serious metagaming. That's just a point of fact. And metagaming does include "I've seen this encounter 15 times before. I know the enemy will spawn....now and....here! BAM!" (Encounter ended by player's OOC knowledge of the dungeon and enemy strength.) So there's an element of this post that falls in the "excessive nostalgia" category.

Second, there's a difference between playing a party w/ PC+3 vs PC+5. In the larger party, you can get away with a "flavor" character who rarely contributes much beyond special activities. Heck, in BG many PCs were built on this (Garrick, Quayle, Haer'Dalis, even the great and mighty Minsc to a degree). In a PC+3 party, everyone better do a role at least 'somewhat' well, or you risk party wipe on a regular basis. So yes, that means you have to be somewhat more efficient in PC building.

That said, there's enough room for you to make oddball choices still...and *all* my PCs take coercion for at least 2 ranks, usually 4. I've never seen those ranks make a serious difference in my playability. Rogue archers with minimum stealth *are* playable in DA (see Leliana). But you can't have two of them, especially since some traps are, if not outright lethal, incapacitating enough to cause a mess in places. And you can't give up "all" functionality. (See point 2 for the reason.)

Finally, difficulty level does matter. Most powerbuild guides you see here are based on the assumption you'll play on Nightmare. You can get away with a lot more suboptimal build at lower difficulty levels. And at easy, the game almost beats itself. If an encounter is too hard for your suboptimal build, lower the difficulty. No one is going to know what you play the game at unless you advertise it here.

Modifié par RangerSG, 13 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[mousestalker]

Sarielle wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...


Who said I didn't use stealth?

Did I? Can you quote me on that?
I
Wait... You don't KNOW what roleplaying IS do you?

To be fair, jumping down somebody's throat for missing ONE skill in a billion word, rambling post is a bit over-the-top, wouldn't you agree?

Also...I'd argue RP means different things to different people. You're well on the way to looking hypocritical, if I may say so.

For example I'm roleplaying being a human forum poster right now.

I'm really a giant space hamster....

[Sarielle]

mousestalker wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...


Who said I didn't use stealth?

Did I? Can you quote me on that?
I
Wait... You don't KNOW what roleplaying IS do you?

To be fair, jumping down somebody's throat for missing ONE skill in a billion word, rambling post is a bit over-the-top, wouldn't you agree?

Also...I'd argue RP means different things to different people. You're well on the way to looking hypocritical, if I may say so.

For example I'm roleplaying being a human forum poster right now.

I'm really a giant space hamster....

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!!1!

[wowpwnslol]

Short answer: when the game is balanced around retards, it becomes too easy and people don't want to play it.

[sami jo]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Who said I didn't use stealth?

Did I? Can you quote me on that?
I dont defeat enemies with deception, is all.

Choosing a rogue for roleplaying reasons is NEVER artificial.

You are a marine.
Good for you.

I was an combat engineer.
You chose NOT to roleplay something similar to your role in the real life, I chose to have ONE roleplaying character that is similar to myself in real life.

You accuse ME, who played tabletop games since AD&D, for thinking too much into the roles?

You refuse to use traps and poisons, two of the classic rogue tools.
You're not backstabbing or stealthing because you see it as unethical,
which are two more classic rogue tools. I'm just guessing you're not
doing any stealing either, with little to no cunning and the ethical
problem with backstabbing.

...
classical rogue tools.
classical, as in: From WHERE?

Warriors represent trained warriors.
Rogues represent those not trained for combat.
My character wasn't trained for combat, he was trained to defend himself if necessary and have advanced to become a hybrid fighter-rogue.
...
...
...
...

Wait... You don't KNOW what roleplaying IS do you?

Tell me, which class is this guy:

Artema the Frostraven
Trained in ranged combat and martial arts, but not in head to head combat.
He's a tactician, engineer and disabler of traps and opener of doors.
He is rarely seen, specializing in non-combat stealth and dexterity, but a life of fighting has taught him and trained him to be strong, and experience with backstabbing friends have taught him to wear chainmail, and he doesn't tolerate lying people nor dishonesty.

In combat, he specializes in disabling enemies, and always fight from the front. He doesn't have any issues with slicing throaths or executing enemies face to face, but will never stab anyone in the back nor kill anyone who have surrendered; he will cut off their swordhand thumb and index finger from dangerous swordsmen before releasing them or sending them to court..
He will never attack someone first, and will never lie.
He is heavily persuasive and highly cunning (20 cunning; 15 native intelligence in D&D), and favor combating through words over fighting with steel.
He will steal if that prevents violence and if the opposition hasn't been reasonable.
He will turn down rewards where he see fit, and will not take rewards for killing others or where others died or were found dead.

In combat, he uses a shortbow at a range, but switches to swords and stands in the front line, favoring disabling strikes over lethal blows, speed over strength, dirty fighting over clean fighting.
As a marine, you should know: Dirty fighting is better than dirt napping.
He doesn't scream, he doesn't swear. (unlike me when I'm kickboxing  )
In Dragon Age, he is a bard to simulate his viper-forked tongue.

A warrior will not suffice.
He is not me, he shares my ethics, and trades on my crafts: He is a ROLEPLAYING character.

So what on earth is your issue with the rogue skills in this game, aside from the fact that you can't seem to use them effectively in combat?  Assassins/spies who will use dirty fighting but not back stab or stealth in combat?  Do you realize how contradictory that is? 

You don't need to use either to be successful as a rogue, even as a melee rogue, but you do need to use your head a little if you aren't going to.  Rogues are not designed to be tanks in this game, or any other that I have played.  They cannot soak up that sort of damage.  Disabling blows to let the wounded opponent slink off to fight another day would be lunacy against the darkspawn, or do you expect them to see the error of their tainted ways and go join the Chantry?  You have the option to let human opponents go without killing them at multiple times in the game.  This is not D&D, and clearly your D&D and mine don't have much in common, or did you forget about all those other alignments?  Your rogue NPC's in this game are a bard (read spy) and an assassin.  What rationale would they have for not stabbing an opponent in the back? 

[Red Frostraven]

mousestalker wrote...

This is an RPG, if I want to go through the game with all my companions in their underwear and you want the entire party to max their strength and wear massive armour, we can both do that. Someone else min-maxing does not effect my game play in the slightest. The only thought that crosses my mind when someone comes onto the forums and boasts about their builds is how cruel classmates must have been to them.

I do not care if I get my temporary companions gear to my inventory, Daveth and Jory always go through the Joining in their underwear when I play. It's my game and it always makes me laugh. You may go ahead and mod in the Ultimate Sword of Uberness, I just want a mod that gives Alistair a clown nose.

Who was that a response to?

In my first post I was implying that people here EXPECT you to NOT roleplay, but min-max:
When you ask for advice, you get told that you're doing things wrong.

When you say you find the game a tad hard, you get told to push the difficulty down a notch.

When you say you find a talent bad, you get told to select another talent.

...
I've not seen ONE roleplayer answer so far, only players.

AND what the heck is up with discussing the fact that after serving the country, I suffer from anxiety attacks that have required proscribed drugs?
THAT has nothing to do with the game, that is a REASON behind the roleplaying rules of one of my characters, used as an example for WHY it is bad to ask people to remake their characters in a ROLEPLAYING GAME.

Sweet jeebus, I'm feeling like the last samurai here... Doesn't ANYONE believe in honor or taking what you've got and making the best out of it, anymore?
I've basicly stated that my rogue, Artema, is having a bloody hard time because the non-metagaming game doesn't have much viable weapons nor armor.
THEN told you WHY the rules are important to me, for this ONE particular character.

What do people answer?

1: Long post, didn't read it
2: Antidotes
3: You rogue isn't a rogue, he would be much more EFFECTIVE if he was a fighter, and why do I gimp my ROGUE by making him a rogue when I can make a mage and pretend he's a rogue?
Because I can just pretend to be playing this game in the first place, if all I do is pretending?

4: Real life problems?
What the heck? When did COMMON trauma that's present in HALF of all soldiers a problem?
It's a problem that makes it impossible for me to SERVE as a soldier.
AND what the bloody heck does that have to do with this game?

I REPEAT MYSELF:
ONE of my CHARACTERS doesn't use traps.
NOT BECAUSE a friend died from a mine, BUT BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE FREAKING TRAPS, and this character is the one that's got the ethics most similar to my own ethos!!

TWO of my regular main characters DO use traps; The warrior and the mage, just NOT the rogue -- who was in deep trouble yesterday, versus a heapload of revenants with skeletal backup, at level 10 -- dealing 40 damage per hit versus my characters, while taking 3 damage per hit from the best weapons my characters had managed to find and buy at that point.

I could mention that I play "hardcore" as well: If I don't manage a combat, I restart the game from the start: 
I won't make a mistake and then rectify the mistake by chickening out from my poor decision.

I urge EVERYONE to read point #7: Reading Comprehension.
NONE of you who have replied so far have proven that you have any what so ever.

5: Tone of my post.
My tone was determined by the deterimental advice the metagaming community here offered me to my simple request: 
Only stupid people don't min-max was the FIRST response I got when I joined the community for a ROLEplaying game.
That kind of didn't float my warship, at all.

And while I'm sure you kids ALL would LOVE to hear about anxiety attacks, I'm here to discuss the game and how the "roleplaying" part in "roleplaying game" (RPG) seems to not have answered it's phone for 4 months, without cancelling the milk...
And you're all treating me like citizen Kain for pointing that fact out?!

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 13 février 2010 - 02:36 .

[soteria]

Who said I didn't use stealth?



Did I? Can you quote me on that?

I dont defeat enemies with deception, is all.

Yes, indeed I can.

Why can't my rogue use archery instead of stealth?

Only because archery is underpowered and stealth overpowered.



...



With my archer strength dual wielder bard rogue, without poison nor stealth,

I dealt 2-3 damage per hit with the best weapons for all characters,

and couldn't kill the FIRST revenant because there weren't any weapons

available that COULD damage the critter.



Sure.

I SHOULDN'T play as an archer dual wielding strength rogue -- but WHY not?

WHY should NOT archery be as viable as stealth?

From your OP, multiple statements that you weren't using stealth on this character.

You are a marine.

Good for you.



I was an combat engineer.

You chose NOT to roleplay something similar to your role in the real life, I chose to have ONE roleplaying character that is similar to myself in real life.

It's not that I avoid RPing something similar to what I do or am in real life. It's that I can RP myself as any class--wielding daggers, a bow, a 2h axe or primal magic is different enough from my real experiences that I don't try to build an analogue.

You accuse ME, who played tabletop games since AD&D, for thinking too much into the roles?

Yep. YOU, who have been playing D&D so long you've gotten stuck on the roles as defined by that intellectual property.

...

classical rogue tools.

classical, as in: From WHERE?

Pretty much every RPG I've ever played applied at least half of those tropes to rogues or thieves or whatever they called them. Can you give me exceptions?

Warriors represent trained warriors.

Rogues represent those not trained for combat.

My character wasn't trained for combat, he was trained to defend himself if necessary and have advanced to become a hybrid fighter-rogue.

Unless you take the Combat Training skill, in which case you ARE trained for combat, be you a rogue or warrior. Since you have to take at least a few ranks in that to pick up archery and dual-wield skills, I'm guessing you did.

Tell me, which class is this guy:



Artema the Frostraven...

Sure, that would have to be a rogue in DA:O. Your cunning score is too low for your character, though--20 cunning is not high at all, and does not fit your character concept. Additionally, with such low cunning, you will NOT be able to unlock/disable all the traps/locks you want to even with maxed skills.



I think it's strange that your character thinks "dirty fighting" and disabling strikes is OK, but employing a tactical advantage to strike someone from the rear is bad. It seems unethical to endanger my friends by taking the time to work my way around to someone's front side, rather than taking action from whatever position I find myself in.



Your character is actually pretty similar in terms of attribute breakdown to my first one. There's no reason your character can't be effective. It's a somewhat weak build, but I still finished the game on Hard with that character. For you, I'd ignore most of the archery talents, except for taking maybe Pinning and Crippling Shot.



If you're having trouble with any particular fights, I refer you to my signature.

[soteria]

In my first post I was implying that people here EXPECT you to NOT roleplay, but min-max:

When you ask for advice, you get told that you're doing things wrong.



When you say you find the game a tad hard, you get told to push the difficulty down a notch.



When you say you find a talent bad, you get told to select another talent.



...

I've not seen ONE roleplayer answer so far, only players.

If you ask for advice, and you're told, "You're doing it wrong: try *this*," and then you get upset... wow. Why'd you ask for advice if you weren't willing to listen? You were told to choose different talents, and you said, "No." You were told to use different companions, and you said, "No." You were told, "Well, if you're having trouble, and you aren't willing to change what you're doing, then drop the difficulty." And you say "No." What do you want? Sympathy? Look elsewhere.



I can't give RP advice. I can only give gameplay advice, for any game. I won't give anyone advice on how to roleplay their characters.

[AlanC9]

Red Frostraven, when everyone misunderstands a post you made, you just might want to re-examine your communication style. When one person doesn't get it, it's him, but when everyone doesn't get it, it's probably you.

[mousestalker]

Red Frostraven wrote...

{much editing}
And while I'm sure you kids ALL would LOVE to hear about anxiety attacks, I'm here to discuss the game and how the "roleplaying" part in "roleplaying game" (RPG) seems to not have answered it's phone for 4 months, without cancelling the milk...
And you're all treating me like citizen Kain for pointing that fact out?!

1. Dude, every post is not about you.

2. I like you, you're sassy.

[Sarielle]

@Soteria: Funny calling that one, lol. As much as I work with copy, even I didn't have the fortitude to slog through all that text again. xD


@OP:I'm kinda disappointed. I thought you were genuinely upset that you couldn't get through with your RP build, and that with a little patience, we could get you rolling with it again.

Turns out, it's just out of control attention whoring.

Red Frostraven wrote...

I urge EVERYONE to read point #7: Reading Comprehension.
NONE of you who have replied so far have proven that you have any what so ever.

I'm VERY VERY sorry that the multiple offers to help you manage encounters better with your RP character were not on topic.

It might be a tad easier to have reading comprehension if you bothered to be coherent and on-topic, yourself.

5: Tone of my post.
My tone was determined by the deterimental advice the metagaming community here offered me to my simple request: 
Only stupid people don't min-max was the FIRST response I got when I joined the community for a ROLEplaying game.
That kind of didn't float my warship, at all.

And most people's introduction to you has been off-topic hyberbole and refusing to acknowledge proffered help.

-edited because I really, really hate how these forums break up lines when you copy and paste-

Modifié par Sarielle, 13 février 2010 - 03:00 .

[ransompendragon]

Sir,

I read your entire first post.
I did skim some of the rest of the thread. I cannot honestly say I understand all of your frustrations but I do understand some of them. (Nor do I understand the need of people to reply with TLDR - like DPS, I had to go look it up, LOL).

My general impression of the DAO forums is that they are, indeed, pretty harsh. The whole "tone" is. I don't know why that is, but that's my feeling. A few of those who replied in this thread actually seem to me (from other threads) to be players who are roleplayers who would honestly be willing to discuss different parts of the game without insisting that there are only one or two "right" ways to play it.

I also had some frustration with my first playthrough as dwarf-noble who started out with sword and sheild but switched to 2 handed and tried to stay on the "good" path - whatever that is. I found certain battles nearly impossible and others simply tedious because I wanted to advance the story. I think of myself as a role-player and there is no way I can honestly tell anyone else they are or are not.  So far my second play through is going a little more smoothly. (I play on normal and highly doubt I ever will play on any other setting--except easy of course).

Also, I understand being attached to one's alter-ego because I am. I have played the same warrior/paladin from MUD games through Baldur's Gate and other games as well.

I guess I am really replying, since I don't think you are actively seeking advice (and honestly I don't have much), because I am sorry that this place is such a drag that it has upset you so much. I don't think the answers "its just a game" are all that helpful - it is kind of like roleplaying - who can tell you if you are or are not doing it and whether your reasons for being upset are valid or not?

Hopefully you will make it to the end of DA with an outcome that is true to your character and to yourself. I think good roleplaying games are rare (that's why we still play Baldur's Gate, isn't it?) I think DA is a good game and I fear that the world has already been taken over by consoles so I am just going to not worry about it.

Maker guide your path

Ransom Pendragon (formerly known as the Lord of Slack)

[sami jo]

I think we all understood. He is ticked that no one agrees with his rant about the combat and autosaves. He said in another thread that he would keep bringing it up until someone agreed with him. He is correct. There is no way to not have to repeat large chunks of the game due to party slaughter playing a non-combat bordering on pacifist rogue PC with no mage support because Morrigan is morally repellent without deliberately saving the game now and then on any difficulty level he chooses. I'd think he would understand that in real life, one would not send such characters to fight on the front lines of a war in which one is vastly outnumbered and expect it to work well. Our little Grey Warden band is the real world equivalent of special forces teams, not a formal fencing competition. Darkspawn are not honorable and do not respect his very moral decision to look at them when he kills them instead of killing them from behind. He doesn't want to listen to any suggestions about how to make such a build work. He wants us to agree that he should be able to make idiot decisions about combat and not saving and be pissed that he has to replay large chunks of the game when he does so.



How dare DA:O not be just like his D&D games and what are we doing suggesting that perhaps it would be easier if he changed a few things and stopped being rude. After all, we are all evil metagamers for not agreeing with him.

[Red Frostraven]

-

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 16 juin 2016 - 12:29 .

[Imrahil_]

DomiiMai wrote...

To be honest.. I didn't even rea...

I stopped reading your post here.  I figured you were anxiously awaiting that information, so I posted it.

[MishenNikara]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Rogues represent those not trained for combat.
My character wasn't trained for combat, he was trained to defend himself if necessary and have advanced to become a hybrid fighter-rogue.

Yes... a class that can figure out the best ways to place themselves for maximum damage (backstabbing), usually can cause some of the highest DPR, typically have proficiency in a decent amount of weapons, and learn to avoid being hit altogether vs learning to mitigate it through heavy armor is tottaly not meant for combat.  They combat just fine, just alot less honorably.

Hell the assassin and duelist builds in game revolve around direct combat, rangers combat through a buddy, and bard in buffing themselves and everyone else for said combat.

[Sarielle]

Red Frostraven wrote...
I'm oldschool, not kindergarten

If you hadn't beat us over the head with the fact that you're in the military, I would not have been surprised to discover the latter.

Just in case,

PLAY ON EASY. It's there for the unoptimized builds edit: and people who just really don't "get" this game yet, and no more "metagaming" than switching to hard.

Modifié par Sarielle, 13 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Imrahil_]

OP: I hear what you're saying, & largely agree, but I think we're doomed, more or less. Dragon Age does not, currently at least, allow you to role-play any role you want. I remember reading stories on Baldur's Gate forums about someone who made it through the game with a "coward" character. He would always run away & let Keldorn, Jaheira, whoever else it was, save him. It was hilarious, but more importantly, possible.

I remember reading stories about people playing with all Gnomes & Dwarves, or an all-Mage party (which was as hard in BG as it is easy in DA). I played through as a total pacifist once to just to see how much combat could be avoided.

You can't do that in Dragon Age. So in that sense, I know what you mean. Dragon Age is not really a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, as much as they wish it was, IMO. It's just the next stop-gap game until the real successor comes along.

Still, with that said, if you want to enjoy DA, you'll need to accept that you need to min-max to a large extent. You can't really have "fun" parties, because with only 4 members, everyone has to not just pull their weight, but almost be essential.

Hopefully the expansion will move DA closer to a game where you can play any role & survive (but not thrive - an intentionally sub-optimal character *should* have to avoid Revenants, for example).

Modifié par Imrahil_, 13 février 2010 - 03:37 .

[Sarielle]

Imrahil_ wrote...
Still, with that said, if you want to enjoy DA, you'll need to accept that you need to min-max to a large extent. You can't really have "fun" parties, because with only 4 members, everyone has to not just pull their weight, but almost be essential.

You can. On easy.

EDIT: And honestly, on normal too, once you start to learn the game a bit better. I often run all melees, no-mage parties, and I'm a mediocre player at best.

Modifié par Sarielle, 13 février 2010 - 03:36 .

[soteria]

@Soteria: Funny calling that one, lol. As much as I work with copy, even I didn't have the fortitude to slog through all that text again. xD

Well, it was slog through the text or admit I was wrong--I chose the easier option. And there's this. Also, I'll take this time to say that this thread has delivered. MUCH more entertaining than the other one, which I stayed away from.

I could escape the situation by metagaming, and NOT going into the situation AFTER I realized that it was too hard: But now that I'm there, I want to complete it, for the sake of roleplaying.

I do the same thing, but you can hardly blame anyone but yourself for beating your head against a brick wall.

Noone told me any ways to SOLVE the problems, which I attributed and located to monster balance:

Only two-handed weapons and mages can deal damage to the revenants I faced, and I know that from experience with my mage who merely petrified and imprisoned them till they died of boredom, while sten dealt 30 damage per hit.

Archers do quite well against revenants, as long as you put someone up close to take the damage (and only one person).

Solutions I would suggest to a roleplayer in this situation:

-Look at the damage penetration values for all the weapons and the armor of the enemy, and try to match weapons with enemies better.

-Have you got acids or bombs anyone in your party can use?

-You can try luring the revenant to attack a party member whom he can't readily hit, while your other characters swing away, or otherwise force him to select targets among teammates in a manner that favors you: 4 against one.

-Are there skeleton archers or mages present, it would be wise to take out them first.



See? No metagaming, and I solved my own problem quite easily, through studying the situation at hand.

...I wouldn't have called any of that RP. Whatever. Besides, you never asked for help on a specific fight, as far as I've seen. You've spent most of this thread complaining about being mistreated by all the mean forum people, although I and others certainly have directed you to where you can get advice on specific fights. You should also remember that you are posting in the no-spoilers section, so complaining that people aren't posting spoilers seems moronic, to be quite blunt.

[mousestalker]

Sarielle wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
Still, with that said, if you want to enjoy DA, you'll need to accept that you need to min-max to a large extent. You can't really have "fun" parties, because with only 4 members, everyone has to not just pull their weight, but almost be essential.

You can. On easy.

EDIT: And honestly, on normal too, once you start to learn the game a bit better. I often run all melees, no-mage parties, and I'm a mediocre player at best.

I choose my companions on the basis of witty banter combinations. I'm not l33+ by any stretch of the mind. I play on normal, typically and try not to metagame (except for not helping B______ _______. Talking to him never ends well.)