255 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

My general impression of the DAO forums is that they are, indeed, pretty harsh. The whole "tone" is. I don't know why that is, but that's my feeling. A few of those who replied in this thread actually seem to me (from other threads) to be players who are roleplayers who would honestly be willing to discuss different parts of the game without insisting that there are only one or two "right" ways to play it.

These forums are actually pretty polite. The general forums are the worst here, but the gameplay and character builds forums are really very civil... until you make a post like the OP. Asking for help = Good. Ranting = Bad.

[Imrahil_]

Sarielle wrote...
You can. On easy.

EDIT: And honestly, on normal too, once you start to learn the game a bit better. I often run all melees, no-mage parties, and I'm a mediocre player at best.

Fair enough, I suppose - I mean, I do that, too.  But it's only because I metagame.  I know what's coming.  If I could erase my knowledge of the game, I don't think I could pull it off with a party consisting of a Str-based Rogue, Leliana, Dog, & Oghren, for example.

The only way I get by with a party like that is setting Traps around spawn points, luring one enemy away from the group ( I mean, really? his buddies just stand there while I pelt him with arrows?), & drinking enough Health potions to make a High Dragon puke.

Granted you probably shouldn't be able to talk your way out of a fight with Darkspawn, it's just that there's no incentive to try even if you could.  I enjoy Dragon Age, don't get me wrong, I just think the OP has somewhat of a point.

[Darkemorrow]

Red Frostraven wrote...

You CAN'T roleplay properly in Dragon Age because there's so many things that simply WILL NOT WORK.

Yes, you absolutely can. I know because I've done 3 playthroughs as an RPer, not as a min/maxer. You just have to stop being such a crybaby long enough to learn how to play the game.

Or, failing that, put it on Easy mode.

[Sarielle]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Sarielle wrote...
You can. On easy.

EDIT: And honestly, on normal too, once you start to learn the game a bit better. I often run all melees, no-mage parties, and I'm a mediocre player at best.

Fair enough, I suppose - I mean, I do that, too.  But it's only because I metagame.  I know what's coming.  If I could erase my knowledge of the game, I don't think I could pull it off with a party consisting of a Str-based Rogue, Leliana, Dog, & Oghren, for example.

On normal, maybe not -- because I didn't have much magery my first playthrough, and I struggled at several points. That was mostly because I didn't even touch tactics, and it showed. But you could easily run with that party on easy.

[Sarielle]

Darkemorrow wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

You CAN'T roleplay properly in Dragon Age because there's so many things that simply WILL NOT WORK.

Yes, you absolutely can. I know because I've done 3 playthroughs as an RPer, not as a min/maxer. You just have to stop being such a crybaby long enough to learn how to play the game.

Or, failing that, put it on Easy mode.

I think his complaint is that every conceivable option isn't there for every encounter -- though "walking away" is certainly possible in at least one I can think of. But realistically, you're not going to get that in a video game...you gotta turn to PnP for that.

EDIT: gah, I thought I was editing. -kicks forums-

Modifié par Sarielle, 13 février 2010 - 03:56 .

[Darkemorrow]

Sarielle wrote...

Darkemorrow wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

You CAN'T roleplay properly in Dragon Age because there's so many things that simply WILL NOT WORK.

Yes, you absolutely can. I know because I've done 3 playthroughs as an RPer, not as a min/maxer. You just have to stop being such a crybaby long enough to learn how to play the game.

Or, failing that, put it on Easy mode.

I think his complaint is that every conceivable option isn't there for every encounter -- though "walking away" is certainly possible in at least one I can think of. But realistically, you're not going to get that in a video game...you gotta turn to PnP for that.

EDIT: gah, I thought I was editing. -kicks forums-

Well frankly its hard to tell WHAT he wants. Other than attention maybe.

[Sarielle]

Darkemorrow wrote...

Well frankly its hard to tell WHAT he wants. Other than attention maybe.

We have a WINAAAAAAAR.


And damnit, I seemed perversely determined to give it to him.

[Imrahil_]

Darkemorrow wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

You CAN'T roleplay properly in Dragon Age because there's so many things that simply WILL NOT WORK.

Yes, you absolutely can. I know because I've done 3 playthroughs as an RPer, not as a min/maxer. You just have to stop being such a crybaby long enough to learn how to play the game.

Out of curiosity, what roles did you roleplay?

[Sarielle]

Red Frostraven wrote...

I want debate.
If you actually read the first post, and compare it to a newspaper, you'd find that I've written an article on the state of metagaming expectations and tolerance in the latest spiritual follower of the Baldur's Gate series.
Unedited and colored by lack of sleep, but an article none the less.
Or an essay, if you like, seeing that I use myself as an example.

No, it was an editorial. And a very poor one, with no research to back your claims. Hyperbole does not a point make.

There's been tons of evidence to the contrary, and tons of offers of help on ways it can be done. A debate, if that's what you want, is a give and take. It's not somebody stubbornly sticking to a point long after it's been proven incorrect.

-edited for a misspelling-

Modifié par Sarielle, 13 février 2010 - 04:22 .

[hexaligned]

Hi, I have both RP chars, and minmaxed chars. I enjoyed both for different reasons. What now?

[soteria]

I can blame those who placed the brick wall there in the first place AND tied my hands.

AND the people who tell me I can just reload at a point where my hands weren't tied are starting to annoy me: My hands are tied.

Someone said something about adapting:

The situation is: My hands and feet are tied, and there's a brick wall I need to get through, and the weakest point is about 6 feet above ground...



Everyone suggests removing the ropes, BUT the only method of doing so is metagaming: I don't want to do that just yet, I want to play the game as it was intended by the developers FIRST.

If you find yourself running into a brick wall--get a sledge. YOU tied your own hands. Really, what's wrong with the Easy difficulty? You've ignored this suggestion every time someone brought it up. Stupid misplaced pig-headed pride is my guess. You built a character that wasn't meant for combat (intentionally) and then acted surprised when your performance in combat was sub-par. Stop acting like a martyr, reach down and grab a hold of something, and get over it.

I was just looking for like-minded people in this hive-minded place, which amusingly enough has taken the name "social.bioware.com" in stead of the old "forum.bioware.com", when this place has turned less social and exactly MORE like the ancient greek forums.

You're in the forum section of the social site. Seriously. And you act surprised that the forums seem like forums? May I point you to the blog/groups section of the site?

I want debate.

If you actually read the first post, and compare it to a newspaper, you'd find that I've written an article on the state of metagaming expectations and tolerance in the latest spiritual follower of the Baldur's Gate series.

Unedited and colored by lack of sleep, but an article none the less.

Or an essay, if you like, seeing that I use myself as an example.

Wow, that sounds amazingly pretentious, considering how difficult it was to read. By the way, pro formatting tip: you don't need to put a line break after every sentence. Doing so actually makes your posts harder to read.

[LaztRezort]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Out of curiosity, what roles did you roleplay?

I know this wasn't directed at me, and is OT, but I'll answer anyway

Many moons ago (it seems that way, anyway), I posted a thread about RPing in DA:O, and got a few responses.  If you are seriously curious, here is the link [SPOILERS HERE]: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/166334

Since that post, I've played a mix of minmax and RP characters, but never role-played to the extant as the first playthrough.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Darkemorrow wrote...

Well frankly its hard to tell WHAT he wants. Other than attention maybe.

We have a WINAAAAAAAR.


And damnit, I seemed perversely determined to give it to him.

I want debate.
If you actually read the first post, and compare it to a newspaper, you'd find that I've written an article on the state of metagaming expectations and tolerance in the latest spiritual follower of the Baldur's Gate series.
Unedited and colored by lack of sleep, but an article none the less.
Or an essay, if you like, seeing that I use myself as an example.

What kind of newspapers do you read, Insane Ranting Weekly?

Your first post is a mismash of whining, rage, miscomprehension and totally unrelated personal anecdotes as you eventually tell everyone you like to RP.   Also somewhere in there, the fact that you suck at the game has been attributed to Bioware catering to people who you consider metagamers and powergamers (a group which apparently includes everyone but yourself) with no basis in reality whatsoever.

[DraconisCombine]

I have to login and comment.Someone is WRONG!LMAO!(Hilarious link!)Ive got no trouble roleplaying in DAO.You sure your playing DAO and not an MMO?
I just made it past the anvil area on normal and it was tough!As its supposed to be.Meh , ill just use the toolset and alter it back to the way i want it if need be.The same way folks alter the game to make it easier for themselves to play.

[RangerSG]

Imrahil_ wrote...

OP: I hear what you're saying, & largely agree, but I think we're doomed, more or less. Dragon Age does not, currently at least, allow you to role-play any role you want. I remember reading stories on Baldur's Gate forums about someone who made it through the game with a "coward" character. He would always run away & let Keldorn, Jaheira, whoever else it was, save him. It was hilarious, but more importantly, possible.

I remember reading stories about people playing with all Gnomes & Dwarves, or an all-Mage party (which was as hard in BG as it is easy in DA). I played through as a total pacifist once to just to see how much combat could be avoided.

You can't do that in Dragon Age. So in that sense, I know what you mean. Dragon Age is not really a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, as much as they wish it was, IMO. It's just the next stop-gap game until the real successor comes along.

Still, with that said, if you want to enjoy DA, you'll need to accept that you need to min-max to a large extent. You can't really have "fun" parties, because with only 4 members, everyone has to not just pull their weight, but almost be essential.

Hopefully the expansion will move DA closer to a game where you can play any role & survive (but not thrive - an intentionally sub-optimal character *should* have to avoid Revenants, for example).

Again...there's a lot of nostalgia in these. And it's also based a great deal on metagaming encounters. The people who did something like this in the old BG had played it so many times they could tell you the exact spell sequence of every casting adversary in the game by heart.  They were not RPing BG the first or second time with these sorts of characters.

The comparison is simply not valid. And entirely based on nostalgia and selective memory. BG was a great game. But it was NOT a game 'any" character build could beat the first time.

[Darkemorrow]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Darkemorrow wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

You CAN'T roleplay properly in Dragon Age because there's so many things that simply WILL NOT WORK.

Yes, you absolutely can. I know because I've done 3 playthroughs as an RPer, not as a min/maxer. You just have to stop being such a crybaby long enough to learn how to play the game.

Out of curiosity, what roles did you roleplay?

What, you want me to describe my characters to you? It would be kinda hard to sum them all up without writing a fanfic - which I have no inclination to do - but I'll give it a shot.

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EDIT: SPOILER WARNING

(I forgot this was the non-spoiler forums)


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My very first playthrough was my "Mary Sue" playthrough with a male human noble warrior named Alaric. I generally made the decisions on him that I would make IRL, so he was mostly a good guy. I romanced Leliana, saved the mages, rescued Connor without using blood magic, broke the Werewolf curse, sided with Harrowmont, destroyed the Anvil, killed the cultists, saved Arl Eamon.

I always lent money and aid to those in need and turned down rewards. I helped the mage's collective, did quests for the Chantry and the Blackstone Irregulars, but I refused to do illegal jobs for the "Interested Parties" or assasinate anyone for the Crows. I didn't even get Slim Couldry's quests because I didn't take any skill in stealing - nor did I steal from anyone using Leliana either.

I turned myself into Cauthrien after killing Howe and rescuing Anora because I didn't want any more unnecessary bloodshed. During the Landsmeet I dueled Loghain myself, and was about to spare him, but Alistair convinced me I shouldn't. I did, however, make Anora queen, as I hadn't hardened Alistair during his quest and he didn't want the throne - Anora seemed like the more capable ruler, and during that playthrough she hadn't betrayed me so I had no reason to suspect she was anything but honorable. Afterward, I rejected Morrigan's ritual, which seemed reckless at best, downright evil at worst, and during the final battle I offered to sacrifice myself. However, when the time came, Alistair begged me to allow him to be the one to do it, and reluctantly I agreed - something I afterward regretted.

Statwise I didn't min-max Alaric at all - I put more into cunning than necessary to unlock my skills because I wanted him to be smart and perceptive, and I put a lot of points in dexterity as well because I wanted to be able to use a longbow, despite the fact that he specialized in two-handed weapons. I only took one specialization with him - Champion - because none of the others seemed appropiate for what I wanted him to be.

That first playthrough I played most of the way on normal (though I did switch to easy for a few of the tougher fights) and for the most part it was perfectly manageable, despite the fact that my character was far from being well-designed for a 2-hander.

My other two full playthroughs were as a female human mage (who, despite her occasional arrogance and her grudge against the Chantry, was very loyal to the Circle and had a great deal of respect for both Irving and Wynne) and as a Dalish Elf rogue (who gradually learned to overcome her mistrust of humans as she slowly grew into the role of leadership that she never wanted).

Again, neither of these characters was min-maxed. My mage never took a specialization - I wanted her to be a traditional caster, so no Arcane Warrior, no Shapeshifter, no healing, and certainly no forbidden magic. Instead, I made her an Elementalist, maxing out the Primal school as well as the generic anti-magic and mana-manipulation spells of the Spirit school. I avoided the Creation and Entropy schools altogether - I picked her spells based on the concept of what I wanted her to be, rather than what was most powerful.

I roleplayed my Dalish Elf rogue as a wilderness hunter, taking the traps and survival skills, specializing in ranger, and maxing the archery, stealth and lockpicking talents (I figured she should be as good at detecting and disarming traps as we was at making and setting them). Again, I didn't take a second specialization - bard would have been useful, but it didn't fit her character. I put extra points into her strength in order to use the Ancient Elven armor set and to dual-wield a Veridium Dar'Misaan and Dar'Misu as her melee weapons - not because this equipment was ideal stat-wise (far from it) but because it fit the character so perfectly. I managed to do both of these playthroughs just fine on Normal.


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END OF SPOILERS

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So my point is this: the game gives you plenty of options, and it does not punish you for making unorthodox builds for the sake of role-playing (at least not on Easy or Normal mode). So I really do not know what your problem is, OP, other than that you apparently like to complain.

I noticed you never answered my question either... what difficulty have you been playing on that your role-playing build is so hopelessly underpowered?

Modifié par Darkemorrow, 13 février 2010 - 05:45 .

[RangerSG]

I'll also add I have not "min/maxed" a single character in DA either and played at normal difficulty. I always take the full coercion line. I always throw points for RP or talents I think they 'should' have that may or may not be effective. Really, as long as you have 1 or 2 lines that 'are' effective, you're golden.

[AmstradHero]

OP: Aside from the fact that your original post is very convoluted and difficult to read, you seem to just be having a long-winded complaint that you can't be very successful as a rogue who doesn't backstab, use traps, or use poison. Then you seem to be using this as the primary evidence for an inaccurate complaint that the game is designed entirely for metagamers who min-max their characters perfectly.

Firstly, if you're a rogue and you're not going to use any of the "sneaky combat tricks" that rogue would use in combat, then you have to expect to find the game more difficult. I don't there's there should be any apology from developers for that. They can't make the game straightforward, else many gamers would complain that it was too easy.

Secondly, min-maxing is not mandatory in order to complete the game.  I played as a sword and shield warrior human noble and didn't particularly min-max my character. He invested quite a number of points into cunning because he was meant to be persuasive.  I also invested a few points into constitution and willpower here and there, which apparently from a min-maxing perspective is utterly wasteful.  I didn't look up hints on the Internet, or read through the guide that I'd bought (which I wanted that for the art/lore) on my first playthrough and got through despite some troubles at a few points.  I was playing on normal as I usually do for games first time around.  I also ditched Morrigan as soon as I could because my character didn't like her.  So at times I was getting around with NO mage in my party.

I consider myself a roleplayer, not a metagamer.  I make decisions based on the personality of the character I am playing.  Heck, sometimes I deliberately have characters NOT using the best equipment that is available to them because they don't like the look of it, or because it has a history they don't agree with. (Typically this is my good aligned character refusing to use weapon with an evil history.)  Occasionally I've even not sold said equipment for the (substantial) gold it is worth because I don't want it potentially falling into the wrong hands.

Despite all this, Dragon Age was not too difficult, and certainly didn't require metagaming.  I think I used traps once in the entire game - a mabari encounter, and perhaps used poison a couple of times, only ever against a very dangerous spider and the end boss itself.  In essence, I would argue that if you're struggling that badly to get through combat, you need to learn to play the game better, or you need to lower the difficulty level.

[hexaligned]

You don't even need to min max to beat this game on nightmare. My last play through was with a great sword using rogue, and clericy type mage (not AW, just a mage with enough to str to equip heavy armor) that's hardly min maxing.



The ego is a funny thing, might want to step back and consider you just aren't very good at the game, rather than blame the game itself.

[Thanatos45]

I didn't read everything, but I think you're just overreacting. If you want to keep your self to a strict roleplaying set of rules that badly, go play an easier difficulty.



Anyway, I find that I don't have too much trouble getting through the game (hard difficulty) while roleplaying, although I don't take it to extremes.

[Maria Caliban]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Why would a good character take an evil mage with him?

My good character took Morrigan with her because she was obviously not that evil. She and her mother kept the Grey Warden treaties safe, traveled into a darkspawn filled Ostigar to save her and Alistair, nursed the PC back to health, and then she willingly joined my PC to fight an almost impossible battle against the archdemon and the Blight.

My character had no reason to think that Morrigan was evil when they first met.

[Sabriana]

My good character is also essentially a practical character, and she took Duncan's "Everything to beat the Blight" to heart. Therefore, Morrigan's motives don't play into it, as long as my good character can intervene should she get out of hand. Morrigan's approval/disapproval means nothing to my PC, as long as the woman does what she it supposed to do, namely help my PC to beat the menace that is the Blight. Personal feelings for or against a NPC have to be set aside in my PC's opinion, the biggest menace is the Blight that threatens to erradicate all of her homeland.

Metagaming is not a factor, even if the player remembers where and when encounters are triggered. By that logic, no game could be re-played ever, unless you have the ability to shut off your memory of what you encountered the first time around. A good role-player can work with this memory, and has to, because I doubt that the majority of players are able to just 'forget' their previous play-throughs.

My first play-through was completely unspoiled, and yes, hard, but I did manage to get through it. I couldn't even go and get advise on the interwebs, because my connection was broken for about one whole month.

That is how I played my first PC, and the way you play yours is different. That's entirely a personal choice. If your PC can't get beyond the fact that Morrigan is selfish and therefore can't use her, then that is your personal choice. This choice gimps your PC, and you, as the player, must balance this and live with that choice.

[Aldandil]

If a person faces a harsh reality, with danger all around, and chooses to not do the (possibly) immoral thing of bringing a mage that does not share your ideals, chooses to not use effective but immoral tactics, should he not have a hard time? Just saying, being a good guy is tough. Is it impossible? It might be. Maybe you will have to roleplay a character who has to step away from his ideals. If you have to base this decision on some meta-gaming knowledge, then so be it. All types of role-playing characters won't be catered to. Yours appear to be one of them.

[mousestalker]

The game isn't all that hard without mages, you know. I've won it that way. You just burn through a lot of poultices.



My guess is that you don't like to scout your fights. Putting a rogue on stealth and sending them ahead to spy out the lay of the land is just good, common sense. It's also how armies do things in the real world and have since the dawn of time. Most famous military debacles are directly attributable to a failure to properly use scouts.

[RangerSG]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Yes, yest. The game is easy.

Now go kill something without doing the downloadable content for l33t armor, starting at redcliffe which the developers shove you towards, without taking the evil mage with you.

Why would a good character take an evil mage with him? Didn't he see what a certain other evil character with the same tone of voice did to the king? Spoiler: You can talk to the black-haired dude before the gray wardens battle with the king, and pretty much catch his drift and motivations, with 1 or 2 coercion.

I didn't use the d/l armor until the 4th time through. I played my sword & board warrior without ever using it. And he was maxed coercion. Hardly optimized.

And you oversimplify Morrigan by a great deal. Her "tone" isn't anything like Loghain's. As for "shoving" the player to Redcliffe. No more than you were "shoved" to save Imoen. To be flat-out honest, the game gives you more freedom in choosing where to go first than BG2 did. Oh...and actually, there's a better place to start than Redcliffe.

Again, you're *assuming* that people played "any" character build in Baldur's Gate without metagaming. But it's simply not true. All the "solo" walkthroughs posted were heavy on metagaming and prepping encounters before they spawned. And the weaker the PC, the more one did it. The same thing was true in Fallout. People played with strong builds to start and then goofed around with concepts to see what they could do.

And the simple fact is, it doesn't matter what talents you take if you refuse to use them in a judicious manner. What's the point of a rogue who isn't going to scout? Do you *like* walking into traps and then trying to claim it's the game's fault? If you refuse to take sensible precautions, why blame the game?