I just want to stick my head in here to say it's all in your intent, and ultimately, it's all in the eye of the beholder. You could say my characters "powergamed" because I planned their builds ahead of time to be as effective as possible and "metagamed" because I held off on certain purchases knowing I would get the equipment I wanted later on as a quest reward. So, guilty as charged. However, I roleplayed the hell out of all my characters.
It's not either/or, is what I'm trying to say. You can min/max your build and still roleplay an interesting character.
Roleplayers unite! Or: Why cater to the power-metagamers?
Débuté par
Maria Caliban
, févr. 13 2010 12:13
Retour en haut
#102
Posté 14 février 2010 - 12:16
Darkemorrow
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Sarielle wrote...
And get your medication adjusted. And I'm not even being a **** about that one.
Ha! I'll second this.
I think it's time to give up Sarielle. You can't help someone who is more interested in complaining about their situation than improving it.
#104
Posté 14 février 2010 - 12:25
Bullets McDeath
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Grossbard wrote...
What is metagaming??
a quick example:
Your warrior is currently wearing Grey Iron Scale Mail as he enters the Brecilian Forest. Varathorn has Veridium Scale Mail for sale, which would be quite an upgrade for you. However, having played the game before, you know you can get both the Juggernaut Armor and the Ancient Elven set in the Brecilian Forest, so you save your gold and wait for free loot. Congratulations, you have just "meta-gamed".
It's basically whiny noob/rpg "purist" elitist types shorthand for "knowing what the f*ck you are doing".
Or using out of character knowledge when roleplaying your character, to put it another way.
Modifié par outlaworacle, 14 février 2010 - 12:28 .
#105
Posté 14 février 2010 - 12:26
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Grossbard wrote...
What is metagaming??
It's when you, as the player, take advantage of your knowledge of the game and do things that your character realistically wouldn't do, rather than roleplaying your character based on who they are and what they know.
Modifié par Darkemorrow, 14 février 2010 - 12:30 .
#106
Posté 14 février 2010 - 12:27
soteria
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Your warrior is currently wearing Grey Iron Scale Mail as he enters the Brecilian Forest. Varathorn has Veridium Scale Mail for sale, which would be quite an upgrade for you. However, having played the game before, you know you can get both the Juggernaut Armor and the Ancient Elven set in the Brecilian Forest, so you save your gold and wait for free loot. Congratulations, you have just "meta-gamed".
...you godless heathen, you.
#107
Posté 14 février 2010 - 12:30
Bullets McDeath
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soteria wrote...
Your warrior is currently wearing Grey Iron Scale Mail as he enters the Brecilian Forest. Varathorn has Veridium Scale Mail for sale, which would be quite an upgrade for you. However, having played the game before, you know you can get both the Juggernaut Armor and the Ancient Elven set in the Brecilian Forest, so you save your gold and wait for free loot. Congratulations, you have just "meta-gamed".
...you godless heathen, you.
My shame is infinite!!!
::goes to gamer hell, where you have to play ET: The Atari Game on a 60 inch plasma screen... forever::
#108
Guest_dream_operator23_*
Posté 14 février 2010 - 12:41
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I have been able to play the game with a good, honorable rogue (which now that I think about it, is kind of a contradiction, but I wanted to pick my own locks) who did not trap or use poison, used the bow exclusively and wore the crappiest Dalish armor through most of the game and did just fine. It wasn't my first play-through though, so that did help. My suggestion is to max out all of the archer skills and use the hell out of defensive fire, suppressing fire, and scattershot. I also never took Morrigan with me anywhere, but I did take Wynne. Also this is the first rpg game I've ever played. I don't even know what DPS or min/max stands for, so if I can do it, anyone can. And I was totally roleplaying the whole time, making decisions based on how I perceived my character and not what was most efficient.
ETA: I kept the Dalish armor for pure rp reasons, and it proves that you don't need l33t stuff to get through the game. At least not on normal which is what I was playing on.
ETA: I kept the Dalish armor for pure rp reasons, and it proves that you don't need l33t stuff to get through the game. At least not on normal which is what I was playing on.
Modifié par dream_operator23, 14 février 2010 - 01:07 .
#109
Posté 14 février 2010 - 02:25
Frolk
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In real life, a strict moral code can run you into practical problems. In dangerous situations, it can even get you killed. Why should this not be the case in an RPG?
Besides, I can attest to the fact that you can roleplay your way through DA:O without metagaming - my first playthrough was largely spoiler-free and I still managed to muddle through on normal difficulty while making only "lawful good" decisions (meaning that I skipped many profitable sidequests because I thought they were morally questionable).
Besides, I can attest to the fact that you can roleplay your way through DA:O without metagaming - my first playthrough was largely spoiler-free and I still managed to muddle through on normal difficulty while making only "lawful good" decisions (meaning that I skipped many profitable sidequests because I thought they were morally questionable).
#110
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:14
hexaligned
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Hard for you, plenty of people have no issues playing without mages. There is a distinction between you failing at something and it being hard for everyone. Even if you don't want to consider it.
#111
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:23
soteria
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BUT... More importantly, can someone else please tell me HOW you solved the encounter with the two darkspawn mages, with three warriors and three rogues and five archers in one of the redcliffe quests, without using a mage?
I'm rather curious about that one... because each of those monsters dealt more damage than even Sten, and the only way I won was by abusing the bad AI, running in circles.
I'm trying to figure out which fight this is exactly. If I can figure it out, I can pretty easily make a quick video. Thing is, there are no darkspawn at Redcliffe, which probably explains why I can't figure out which fight this is.
#112
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:28
Maria Caliban
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He said redcliffe quests'so he probably means something he picked up from the chantry board. It actually sounds like Wynne's 'digevolve' sequence.
#113
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:31
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I have to wonder if you're BSing about soloing a mage through on Nightmare, considering that you talk about Animating Dead wolves and using Blizzard in that encounter where they spawn all around you (unless I'm thinking of a different wolf encounter).
I get that you've already decided that mages are overpowered and that the real purpose of this thread is merely to rant against that perceived imbalance, but you do realize that that puts us in no position to be able to actually "help" you, because only Bioware changing the classes entirely will accomplish that. But there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:
1) any of the three classes can solo the game on nightmare.
2) mages might be overpowered (debatable, surely), but not to the extent that you claim. The fact that a party suffers without a mage is not evidence of mages being overpowered -- it only proves that mages are fairly essential to the party dynamic, which, really, is only the most logical statement in the world, given that Thedas is a land full of magic, and that most of the most troublesome creatures are, in fact, magical creatures. To think that one would be able to enter such a world and save it from one of its greatest known scourges WITHOUT employing magic is foolhardy at best, without using that metagaming knowledge which you so despise.
So yes, a party should certainly suffer without a mage. But that doesn't mean they're overpowered. A party also suffers without a proper tank. It also suffers without a trap springer, in some of the more trap-infested areas. I would compare it, maybe, to a bowl of raisin bran. Sure, none of its components are so essential that you CAN'T have it without milk, or raisins, or bran (well, okay, only milk and raisins would be a little strange), but it's certainly missing something if you remove one of the three.
I think Bioware did a pretty good job of making this game like raisin bran. But to get back to your original point, that mages are overpowered, I guess I would say: no, mages are simply the bran.
I get that you've already decided that mages are overpowered and that the real purpose of this thread is merely to rant against that perceived imbalance, but you do realize that that puts us in no position to be able to actually "help" you, because only Bioware changing the classes entirely will accomplish that. But there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:
1) any of the three classes can solo the game on nightmare.
2) mages might be overpowered (debatable, surely), but not to the extent that you claim. The fact that a party suffers without a mage is not evidence of mages being overpowered -- it only proves that mages are fairly essential to the party dynamic, which, really, is only the most logical statement in the world, given that Thedas is a land full of magic, and that most of the most troublesome creatures are, in fact, magical creatures. To think that one would be able to enter such a world and save it from one of its greatest known scourges WITHOUT employing magic is foolhardy at best, without using that metagaming knowledge which you so despise.
So yes, a party should certainly suffer without a mage. But that doesn't mean they're overpowered. A party also suffers without a proper tank. It also suffers without a trap springer, in some of the more trap-infested areas. I would compare it, maybe, to a bowl of raisin bran. Sure, none of its components are so essential that you CAN'T have it without milk, or raisins, or bran (well, okay, only milk and raisins would be a little strange), but it's certainly missing something if you remove one of the three.
I think Bioware did a pretty good job of making this game like raisin bran. But to get back to your original point, that mages are overpowered, I guess I would say: no, mages are simply the bran.
Modifié par filaminstrel, 14 février 2010 - 03:32 .
#114
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:33
hexaligned
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I assumed he meant near the end of the game when you go back there, if memory serves they are all level one "grunts" though. So that didn't make sense either.
#115
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:35
soteria
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Maria Caliban wrote...
He said redcliffe quests'so he probably means something he picked up from the chantry board. It actually sounds like Wynne's 'digevolve' sequence.
I thought of that, but he said he didn't have a mage in his group.
#116
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:38
Sloth Of Doom
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soteria wrote...
Maria Caliban wrote...
He said redcliffe quests'so he probably means something he picked up from the chantry board. It actually sounds like Wynne's 'digevolve' sequence.
I thought of that, but he said he didn't have a mage in his group.
I'm assuming he is just making crap up now since it is obvious that 90% of what coes out of his mouth are lies.
#117
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:39
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I'm pretty sure the encounter with the two darkspawn mages is the Caravan Down quest.
edit: well, more like only somewhat sure, TBH.
edit: well, more like only somewhat sure, TBH.
Modifié par filaminstrel, 14 février 2010 - 03:42 .
#118
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:51
Sarielle
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Red Frostraven wrote...
honorable rogue
Hah. Nice try; I take medications IF I get the symptoms for an anxiety attack; It's merely a weak tranquilizerSarielle wrote...
And get your medication adjusted. And I'm not even being a **** about that one.
I seem to remember you mentioned in the other thread that you were 26 and actually crying over people telling you to change an RPG character to finish an RPG. If that's actually true, sincerely...talk to your doc about it. Something's not working as intended, so to speak. As I said, not being a **** about that one.
The PROBLEM remains:
A mage can tear everything not an act boss a new one in seconds in nightmare with both hands tied to his back, which is the entire point of all of this.
All of you protesters constantly, CONSTANTLY complain about me not taking morrigan with me for roleplaying reasons because my character considers her evil -- rather than admitting that mages are pretty much the end be all.
Constantly, CONSTANTLY...which was like what...three people, metioning it once? Most people not at all?
You have since made a little sense, and you're saying you expect to play an unoptimized character on nightmare with no problems -- so you want to jack the difficulty WAY up above the default difficulty, and then complain that Bioware and other players are not catering to RPers.
What the **** are you smoking?
And since we're all into lore and RP and all, there are originally 7 mages sent to Ostagar, and that was considered a big contribution. Yes, in Fereldon, mages are godly. The balance in the game reflects it. As an RPer, I'd think you'd understand. Because we can't let game mechanics get in the way, right?
Thought not.
Disclaimer: I've been typing this off and on during downtime at work, so the conversation has no doubt evolved beyond this point.
-edit damn typos-
Modifié par Sarielle, 14 février 2010 - 04:18 .
#119
Posté 14 février 2010 - 03:56
soteria
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filaminstrel wrote...
I'm pretty sure the encounter with the two darkspawn mages is the Caravan Down quest.
edit: well, more like only somewhat sure, TBH.
Aha! That one. I think you're probably right, actually. 2 mages, check. Some warriors and archers, check. Yeah, I think that's the one. Red Frostraven, tell me, what sort of group do you want me to do it with? I'm assuming no mages is a given. Warrior or rogue main character, which companions do you want me to use, etc? Sten, Dog, Alistair?
If you want, I can even use the respec mod to make a main character just like yours.
Modifié par soteria, 14 février 2010 - 04:00 .
#120
Posté 14 février 2010 - 04:19
Sarielle
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soteria wrote...
filaminstrel wrote...
I'm pretty sure the encounter with the two darkspawn mages is the Caravan Down quest.
edit: well, more like only somewhat sure, TBH.
Aha! That one. I think you're probably right, actually. 2 mages, check. Some warriors and archers, check. Yeah, I think that's the one. Red Frostraven, tell me, what sort of group do you want me to do it with? I'm assuming no mages is a given. Warrior or rogue main character, which companions do you want me to use, etc? Sten, Dog, Alistair?
If you want, I can even use the respec mod to make a main character just like yours.
It doesn't matter. Your character won't have the soul his has, you dirty, dirty powergamer.
#121
Posté 14 février 2010 - 04:31
Sylixe
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After reading that whole wall of text i have come away with two conclusions about the OP.
1. They don't know what roleplaying means in these games. Roleplaying is the DIALOGUE and interaction between the characters. That's ALL this game is basically with a little retarded combat added into it for some flavor.
2. This person sucks at tactics and is just whinning because he cannot make his 3rd edition D&D tricked out multi classed character. After reading some of the ways he approached combat i wonder why he even kept trying.
1. They don't know what roleplaying means in these games. Roleplaying is the DIALOGUE and interaction between the characters. That's ALL this game is basically with a little retarded combat added into it for some flavor.
2. This person sucks at tactics and is just whinning because he cannot make his 3rd edition D&D tricked out multi classed character. After reading some of the ways he approached combat i wonder why he even kept trying.
#122
Posté 14 février 2010 - 04:59
Sarielle
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Oh sweet jesus christ...did you really give us your...er, I mean, "your character's"...life story,again? AGAIN??!Red Frostraven wrote...
relhart wrote...
Hard for you, plenty of people have no issues playing without mages. There is a distinction between you failing at something and it being hard for everyone. Even if you don't want to consider it.
Oh sweet jesus christ..???
I'll try to write summarize everything I've said, one more time: Without serious sleep deprieviation this time..:
Except that one time, about using stealth. And probably a lot of others, but you ramble too much for people to much care calling you on it.I do not lie.
*Sarielle's head explodes*Ok I admit it.
I scout with archery instead of stealth, you got me.
...maybe I'm the dense one, but how is tagging somebody with an arrow then charging "scouting"?
It's not. You obviously think I'm a hypocrite despite the fact that I've not contradicted myself in any way.
Wait...did you really pull the condescending "You must be an immature teenager" card? Really? You?I've lost interest in discussing with teenagers who INSIST upon believing that post-traumatic stress affects my gaming experience, and who believe that I suck because I impose myself with roleplaying rules for increased immersion AND to actually make the game harder.
And I'm still scratching my head over how PTS has anything to do with...anything, particularly with what you quoted. I'm not sure why you brought it up.
Because easy or nightmare doesn't matter, the main problem is the fact that a mage is easier to solo in nightmare than a party of 4, without a mage, no matter the difficulty.Let me summarize all your arguments for you:
1: Why don't my rogue backstab people?
2:
Why don't I take a disrespectful wicked witch with me, when my
character doesn't trust her for a second and when she mistreats all my
other partymembers?
3: Where do you touch on "Why don't you play it on easy?
Uh...well, you're 1 for 3 on that. I DID ask you why you didn't play on easy. Not sure who the rest are aimed at.
So...instead of this whole convoluted excuse to repeatedly bash us over the head with your life, you really just wanted to say, "Wow, mages are really overpowered in this game." Which, according to lore, they SHOULD be. But apparently hardcore RP you doesn't give a nug's ass about that.
Modifié par Sarielle, 14 février 2010 - 05:00 .
#123
Posté 14 février 2010 - 05:05
Sylixe
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Okay here is your problem. This isn;t a Pen and Paper RPG game so get that out of your mind right now. This is a FPS RPG using an MMO game engine to allow you fast paced combat action without having to think to much about the combat. It was tailored so everyone can beat it with ease and then you are forced to keep buying their downloads to put more easy to kill mobs in front of you to knock down. This game has very little depth as opposed to older RPG titles and that's how todays gamers want it.
Stop trying to play a rogue as a stealthy and sneeky D&D character. Play the rogue as though you were playing an MMO rogue who has the sole job of just dealing tons of DPS quickly. IF you go down that path you will be more successful as a rogue. Short of that just use the rogue to scout out the next area and drag all the mobs to your AOE.
Look at it this way though. At least they went that extra step and put some boring dialogue into the game that really has zero impact on the game itself.
Stop trying to play a rogue as a stealthy and sneeky D&D character. Play the rogue as though you were playing an MMO rogue who has the sole job of just dealing tons of DPS quickly. IF you go down that path you will be more successful as a rogue. Short of that just use the rogue to scout out the next area and drag all the mobs to your AOE.
Look at it this way though. At least they went that extra step and put some boring dialogue into the game that really has zero impact on the game itself.
#124
Posté 14 février 2010 - 05:21
soteria
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Try Dog, Rogue without 3 points in stealth (that allows for cheese), Alistair and Leliana; My party at the time of that encounter.
Equipment: One primary weapon with a +4 fire rune, nothing else with any runes.
NO tricking the AI, please.
(Which includes running around in circles while your archer(s) pellet targets with arrows.)
You should be no higher than level 11, and not have completed the mage tower for extra health and damage.
Potion restrictions: 5 (normal) health poultices; That was what I had left when I got there, after getting two encounters on the way there; Drake and bear, plus 8 wolves.
That's interesting, since before you specifically said they were doing more damage than Sten. I guess being inconsistent is just part of your MO. Does your character lump darkspawn in there with the demons, assassins, and undead, or are they treated as humans?
Modifié par soteria, 14 février 2010 - 05:28 .
#125
Posté 14 février 2010 - 05:46
Realmzmaster
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@soteria,
I do not remember a random encounter with a drake and a bear. I remember the random wolf encounter. The Chanters board has the Brothers and Sons quest (Easthill Company) which has the 15 wolves and a bear attack. The Caravan Down quest has only one mage (Genlock Emissary), one Genlock Alpha and other assorted darkspawn. Did I miss something?
I do not remember a random encounter with a drake and a bear. I remember the random wolf encounter. The Chanters board has the Brothers and Sons quest (Easthill Company) which has the 15 wolves and a bear attack. The Caravan Down quest has only one mage (Genlock Emissary), one Genlock Alpha and other assorted darkspawn. Did I miss something?
