255 réponses à ce sujet

[MacroSamurai]

Well, I don't see this going anywhere. 7 pages of replies and all you talk about is the harsh treatment you've received over it. Here's a tip: you're on the internet. It's a place filled with people who are more than ready to give you harsh treatment, especially when you feel it necessary to offer up your own personal information as reasons why your characters are a certain way. Deal with it. It's a game. Games have rules, and most of the time you have to play by those rules in order to succeed. Dragon Age is no different. Stop crying about it.

[MacroSamurai]

Dude. It's not that complicated. I don't care that your rogue doesn't use traps. I don't think anybody here does. Like I said before, I applaud you for roleplaying. I get quite a bit of enjoyment out of it myself. Your rogue isn't stupid for not using traps. My rogues don't use traps either...because I simply don't remember to take the time to do it because my primary character is a human noble warrior who prefers to charge into battle and slice darkspawn to pieces. The people here have tried to offer their advice and tried to put themselves in your shoes in order to help you with this supposed problem you're having with being effective in the game.



To reiterate: I roleplay my characters. Even though some might think it peculiar that I do so, sometimes I even walk through town. Meandering and going to various shops because I simply enjoy thinking about it from my character's POV. There's no reason why you can't be effective and roleplay as well. I'm not telling you that you should use traps or poison either. I just don't understand why you're having such a hard time succeeding in such a scenario. My friends have played the game and they don't have these issues and neither have I. It doesn't make any sense. But all you do is come here and get all up in arms because you keep frustrating people with your explanations and whatnot.



The point is: DA:O is a roleplaying game. You've proved it by virtue of roleplaying. But complaining to the developers because you can't seem to make the game work for you and wishing the game's rules were different simply because *you* apparently aren't that good at it is just ridiculous. You're the only person I know who seems to have this problem.

[AlanC9]

Red Frostraven wrote...

hardvice wrote...

Personally, I'd have to describe your character's refusal to work with Morrigan, despite your ethical differences, as "metagaming". You're rejecting her because you, the player, don't like her, when in the game, you're a Grey Warden. Part of being a Grey Warden means doing whatever you must, working with whoever you must, to get the job done.

You don't have to like her and you don't have to agree with her, but the idea that a character in your position would bring her along but leave her in camp when there's a job to be done and she could help is preciously twee.

I as a player, don't care about her: She's a game character.
My player character, a human noble, betrayed THRICE by his allies in three days, losing his mother and father the  first day, then losing two new friends the second day, then losing all that's left the third day...
There's not much trust left.

That didn't answer hardvice's question. Was your PC not paying attention when Duncan explained what being a Grey Warder means? Or does he just not believe it?

It's OK for him not to. I'm just curious about the answer

.Is NOT taking poison and traps wrong?

Not in the ethical sense. It's wrong in the sense of being stupid play. Edit: poisons, anyway. Traps haven't struck me as being worth it.

But you also seem to have forgone flanking attacks too. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[soteria]

AND some people accuse me of lying, contradicting myself and beeing an attention ****.

I'VE DONE NOTHING OF THE SORT.

Some people tell me to take more medication, which is tranquilizing: It's not mind-affecting, it's to help me sleep.

Had I not said that a real life friend died to an american mine, I'm not going to be putting anything inbetwen



Can you PLEASE just tell me EXACTLY what I've done wrong to deserve the harsh treatment I've recieved since my FIRST POST, in another thread, where I mentioned that I found roleplaying a dual-wielding strength-dex rogue bloody hard after playing a mage, and instantly got told I played the game wrong?

The below quote is a really good indicator of why.

I felt it necessary to emphasise that my rogue didn't use traps for a REASON other than beeing stupid.

But despite the heads up that my rogue doesn't use traps because they kill innocent people... HALF the people here can't get over the fact that my rogue doesn't use traps calling him stupid or a warrior, WHILE the other half can't get over the fact that I have a real life reason for not liking traps and antipersonell mines, and act like hobby psychiatrists.

...it's because you ARE being dishonest. In this quote, you misrepresent--actually, flat-out lie about--what other people have said. A number of people have said they don't use traps either, but now, seven pages in, you choose to pretend, contrary to reality, that this is about your not using traps.



It's the fact that you aren't using traps, poisons, stealth (until very recently), backstabbing, or even points in the deft hands tree to unlock doors and disarm traps. You have invested in strength rather than cunning.



In gameplay terms, the only thing that identifies you as a rogue is the Coup de Grace talent, which is pretty hypocritical to use if you think backstabbing is wrong for your chracter. It's "wrong" to backstab because they don't have a chance to surrender, but somehow, stabbing them in the face when they are incapacitated (and don't have a chance to surrender) is just fine.



Not to rehash the whole thread, but another way you've been less than honest with us is whether or not you're using stealth--you even accused me of taking you out of context over this issue.



More recently, you've been dishonest in regards to this fight you feel is impossible without AI abuse. I'm confident I got the fight right--everything about your original description, minus the archers, fits, even down to your description of beating the enemy warrior with AI abuse. You never mentioned live refugees in your original description.



Now you've started describing a different fight, in which the hardest enemy is a single boss-level emissary which you describe as two. Somewhere in this field surrounded by fences and a forest, you brought in a castle and a tower. None of the enemy warriors are particularly dangerous, in fact, most of them get fried by the emissary tossing around fireballs. Plus, there's no way you killed the emissary with AI abuse. They don't work like that--warriors do, such as in the fight I showed.



Aside from the fact that you're muddling multiple fights, you're lying to yourself if you're trying to say that although THIS fight could be done with your group, that OTHER one is MUCH harder. I think at this point we both know that if you can ever settle on which fight it is, I'll be able to beat it--without potions or AI abuse. The problem isn't your build, or your group. I even did this fight at a lower level and with worse gear than yours. The reason you're struggling is your tactics are bad.



As for why everyone is being harsh--it's your attitude, and the way you react to problems. Instead of fixing them, you complain. You think the game is too hard, and mages are too good, and there's no place for RP in combat, so you complain. You're not fixing your problem, and you're not even looking for someone else to fix it, you're just complaining. That's why people are calling you an attention ****, btw.



And now, when the mean forum people are treating you bad, you complain. Instead of analyzing the situation and figuring out what the source of the problem is, you complain. Stop pretending you're a martyr.

[AlanC9]

soteria, I'm sure you're realized by now that this is about feelings, not reason. Why are you still bothering?



I'm only here because I find RF amusing.

[Red Frostraven]

soteria wrote...

...there is no encounter like you describe. The closest resemblance involves a single emissary, but there is no tower. That one is even easier than this one, though.

Incidentally, I had just cleared the area in your video -- that was my closest save to the area I mentioned.

With the save in hand:
Character are level 8 and not close to nine, best armor he's got is iron chainmail -- but he's using a full set. Helmet is Helm of the Red.
Alistair is using heavy chainmail, a full set, and a generic apprentice cowl.
5 lesser health poultice left after the wolf encounter.

The name of the area with the massive amount of darkspawns is Refugees, one square north-east of Lothering.
It's no tower, but a massive stone wall on one side.
Upon loading the save again, the refugees actually fought and killed some darkspawn... which is bloody annoying, because the previous time, they all got killed by a fireball and didn't fight AT ALL five times in a row before my dedicated archer ended up in a duel with the last darkspawn archer. I may have lost the battle because I rushed to kill the emisary in an attempt to rescue the refugees... I guess that may have triggered an excecution script or something: Every time I try, a fireball hits them squarely and takes them out of their misery.
Oh well. I managed to die this time around too after leaving the game unpaused while typing this, but I suspect the area isn't all that hard when those bloody refugees don't DIE without a fight.

... Ok. On my way there, again, I got attacked by three regular shades and one greater shade, I had not seen that before and fell into their trap.
That encounter was pretty tough; Shades deal 15 damage, greater shade 18 -- 26 and 30 damage for special attacks respectively.

Then there was the encounter with 8 wolves, in a random encounter on the way there; Area called Desolate Highway -- about 8 flimsy traps and 8 wolves with a knack for using overpower, with AI that causes all wolves to attack overpowered characters despite Ali using taunt and the overpowered main character wearing a belt and amulet that reduces aggro.

Surely you know the about the four revenants in the forest -- they were my worst concern, specifically the first -- when I didn't have the Sten on my team, he was back in camp.

Finally, the second random encounter on my way to Refugees, with the drake and that bearish beast.
I'd very much like to see how you'd go ahead and defeat that party at level 8 :/
...
I'd very much like to keep this thread in this tone...

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 14 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[soteria]

AlanC9 wrote...

soteria, I'm sure you're realized by now that this is about feelings, not reason. Why are you still bothering?

I'm only here because I find RF amusing.

I'm holding out hope, based on my faith in humanity, that RF is a troll.  It hurts me to think anyone is actually so...  mm.

But mostly, I'm here for the entertainment value as well.

[Sarielle]

So my age and level of education have been called into question by a dude who cries over changing his RPG character and continues to use "beeing."

Gotcha.


@Soteria:Nice video (and funny accompanying text ) ! I've actually been meaning to check out more of yours...I don't use terrain well enough myself.

AlanC9 wrote...

That didn't answer hardvice's question. Was your PC not paying attention when Duncan explained what being a Grey Warder means? Or does he just not believe it?

It's OK for him not to. I'm just curious about the answer

He apparently missed, too, how mages are so wtf powerful that they're locked away in a tower where they can't hurt anybody.

My parting shot -- yes, mages ARE supposed to be really powerful. This is a codex excerpt for the primal school of magic:

" The Four Schools of Magic: Primal






Codex EntryThe Four Schools of Magic: Primal



Number: 87


Those who oppose thee

Shall know the wrath of heaven.

Field and forest shall burn,

The seas shall rise and devour them,

The wind shall tear their nations

From the face of the earth,

Lightning shall rain down from the sky,

They shall cry out to their false gods,

And find silence.

--Andraste 7:19.


Sometimes called the School of Power, the Primal School is the second of the Schools of Energy, balanced by Spirit, and concerns the most visible and tangible forces of nature itself.


This is the magic of war: Fire, ice, and lightning. Devastation. This is what the vast majority imagines when they hear the word "magic."

--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus."

Modifié par Sarielle, 14 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[hardvice]

 

AlanC9 wrote...

soteria, I'm sure you're realized by now that this is about feelings, not reason. Why are you still bothering?

I'm only here because I find RF amusing.

I'm mostly still here because of this:



...although I'd also still like to know what's so terrible, roleplaying-wise, about turning down the difficulty."I'm roleplaying a character who is a battlefield engineer and thus eschews traps, poisons, and backstabbing, but only does so in a world where healing effects are multiplied by 0.85 and enemies have a 2.5% resistance bonus, for, y'know, roleplaying purposes."

Modifié par hardvice, 14 février 2010 - 08:54 .

[soteria]

@Soteria:Nice video (and funny accompanying text ) ! I've actually been meaning to check out more of yours...I don't use terrain well enough myself.

Glad you liked it!  I do have a couple "generic" ones, "Chokepoints" and "Spell Combos." I think the narration quality is a little off for the Chokepoints video, but it goes into more depth on using the landscape to your advantage. Other people have pointed out that it's not really necessary to try so hard to play tactically, but I think it's more fun.

I'm sorry you're annoying him now. The irony is, you're the RPer, and I'm the dirty powergamer.

This thread reminds me of this discussion.

With the save in hand:
Character are level 8 and not close to nine, best armor he's got is iron chainmail -- but he's using a full set. Helmet is Helm of the Red.
Alistair is using heavy chainmail, a full set, and a generic apprentice cowl.
5 lesser health poultice left after the wolf encounter.

Before, you were talking about wearing ancient elven armor and insisting I be no higher level than 11. I guess I shouldn't be surprised to hear something different now.

BUT enough ad hominem, no more discussion of people or mentioning of real life.

We're going to hold you to that.

Modifié par soteria, 14 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[Sarielle]

Red Frostraven wrote...

So my age and level of education have been called into question by a dude who cries over changing his RPG character and continues to use "beeing."

Not really, but you're annoying me
I'm sure you, as I, will grow experienced and start nostalgia tripping yourself, one day.

....we're the same age there, bud. I know, I would never have guessed that myself! I'm also not a dude, but if I ever cry over something someone tells me to do on the internet -- particularly if it involves an RPG -- I really do hope my friends and loved ones slap me.

Catharsis is one thing. That's...something else.

soteria wrote...

@Soteria:Nice video (and funny accompanying text ) ! I've actually been meaning to check out more of yours...I don't use terrain well enough myself.

Glad you liked it!  I do have a couple "generic" ones, "Chokepoints" and "Spell Combos." I think the narration quality is a little off for the Chokepoints video, but it goes into more depth on using the landscape to your advantage. Other people have pointed out that it's not really necessary to try so hard to play tactically, but I think it's more fun.

I'm sorry you're annoying him now. The irony is, you're the RPer, and I'm the dirty powergamer.

This thread reminds me of this discussion.
We're going to hold you to that.

I will check them out!

ALSO. I have laughed so damn hard over that link. I've never seen it before, but instantly passed it on once I'd watched it and got a line of "LOLOLOLOL" in return, hehe. Thank you for linking.

Modifié par Sarielle, 14 février 2010 - 09:52 .

[mousestalker]

Why would anyone ever lie about playing on an Xbox?

[AlanC9]

It occurs to me that RF's real problem is that he actually isn't roleplaying enough. You've got a character who's made various decisions. They're making his quest harder. In character, there are various responses. He could re-evaluate his decisions. He could also refuse this, preferring to fail and die rather than do things differently -- and then, of course, go on to fail and die. Either of these would be consistent with roleplaying.

[MacroSamurai]

Red Frostraven wrote...
And... The gray wardens obviously don't NEED people.
Just look at donkeyboy, murdering TWO recruits -- where at least one of them could have made some offspring, and the other killed at least a dozen darkspawn -- or both could be forced to combat despite not wanting to play the russian rulette by drinking poison that kills between one quarter and one third of those who taste it.
Throwing away 25-33% of all your recruits, plus the ones that die from random questing for the poison that DOES kill a good portion of the recruits...

That may be the very REASON they lost the battle at hand.

Don't call Duncan names, he's a real cool guy.

I don't think you understand the gravity of that whole ordeal just yet, though. Keep in mind I'm not exactly sure how far you've delved into the game, so I'll keep my trap shut in regard to spoilers.

[Realmzmaster]

@soteria,

Very nice video. The quest is the right one for the video. If you get to the caravan right after taking the quest from the Chanter Board, some of the refugees are still alive. But if you wait to long the only ones left standing are the darkspawn.

But for me I think this thread has come to an end. I just hope BioWare keeps making games as great as DA:O, so the roleplayers and the powergamers can both enjoy them. Remember in the words of Alistair: Nothing like a Blight to bring us all together!

[Squeaker Squeak]

Not all builds work, just like in real life. Some people spend all their cultural capital and free time playing games and complaining that the game doesn't live up to their expectations. Just like in DAO, you can pick some talents that don't really help, in real life you can develop talents that don't really make you a better person. For example, I don't know anything about D&D. I've never played it. i assume that learning to play requires the development of some skill sets. Do the skill sets that you developed playing D&D help you accomplish your goals in real life? I spent an enormous amount of time playing sports as a kid. I don't use any of those skills now in my real life. I should have spent my youth learning Mandarin, or better yet, carpentry and plumbing and auto repair, then I wouldn't need to pay someone every time my house or car breaks down.



The bottom line is, in the world of DAO, some characters don't work. In real life some people have better skills than other people.

[Red Frostraven]

MacroSamurai wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...
And... The gray wardens obviously don't NEED people.
Just look at donkeyboy, murdering TWO recruits -- where at least one of them could have made some offspring, and the other killed at least a dozen darkspawn -- or both could be forced to combat despite not wanting to play the russian rulette by drinking poison that kills between one quarter and one third of those who taste it.
Throwing away 25-33% of all your recruits, plus the ones that die from random questing for the poison that DOES kill a good portion of the recruits...

That may be the very REASON they lost the battle at hand.

Don't call Duncan names, he's a real cool guy.

I don't think you understand the gravity of that whole ordeal just yet, though. Keep in mind I'm not exactly sure how far you've delved into the game, so I'll keep my trap shut in regard to spoilers.

There's a REASON for cutting away one quarter to one third of all the recruits?
That reason had better be good, because Mister D sure as heck didn't want to explain WHY we had to play russian roulette
Sure thing, someone MUST take the trial of blood. But everyone? Why not voluntarily, with a bit of secrecy to keep it mystical? Why not poison the recruits one by one instead of killing them with poison in front of their friends' eyes and then force them to drink? Isn't it best to let those who fear for their lives DIE in battle rather than slaughtering them for NOT drinking, AND risk getting a fatal wound or infection out of a wound for attempting to kill the recruit?
That is my characters current thoughts on the matter, and he hates the living daylight out of dead D right now.

Lore acquired later may remedy this, but for now, he's an arse.
Not a complete idiot, but at least not the sharpest of knifes...

Besides, it was HE who taught my character that killing 25-33% of all new recruits is excpected for the gray wardens, filtering out those who're not fit for the service...
My character disagrees with the method of selection, and chose to filter out a wicked witch instead of poisoning his partymembers, who have killed hundreds of darkspawn without taking any damage so far.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 15 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[Norman Ellis]

i suggest you finish the game first before you whine about the story.

[MacroSamurai]

Well, once you finish the game, PM me. I'll be glad to discuss the whole thing with you. Compare our thoughts as players, ya know? But for now, suffice to say, that it was really the only way because Ferelden was in dire need of as many Wardens as they could get.

[Sidney]

Squeaker Squeak wrote...
The bottom line is, in the world of DAO, some characters don't work. In real life some people have better skills than other people.

I had a friend who couldn't finish KoTOR. We did a light side jedi and he had literally no force attack powers at all. He got nothing but helpful buffs. Bad news, if you have no offenseive force powers you can't break ther stuff at the end of the game to beat the big bad boss. That is a case where you can $%^& things up with character development.

I don't think that is possible in DAO. I'd venture that for any skill/spell I can find that I think sucks there is someone who will tell me how it is sooooooooooooo useful (shapeshifting excepted since I think 100% of all people agree that sucks). Hell, I hate Arcane Warrior but I know people love the heck outta that.

Really I think the most you can "mess up" is to really try hard to have no crowd control spells at all from your mages and that is truely an action of self-sabotage that it would be hard to accidentially come across.

[Red Frostraven]

Norman Ellis wrote...

i suggest you finish the game first before you whine about the story.

*Sight* I do not whine about the story, I KNOW why they do the ritual, but TELLING people about it MAY be a good thing, no?

This blog kind of summarizes WHY my character hates dead D and the king. Kind of spoilerish.
http://damagehold.bl...ted-entire.html

My mage, who is more into mysticism and rituals than my rogue, doesn't hate Duncan -- but STILL believes duncan should have told recruits WHY they have to go through the ritual.

AND like I said, there's about 50 better ways to approach the poisoning thing than poisoning everyone in front of eachother's eyes one by one... It's kind of doomed to cause a bit of panic when the first recruit dies, not to mention the times when the two first recruits die from poisoning, which kind of increases the chance of the ritual killing the third too, or even causes the whole group of recruits to revolt -- mostly because they've not been properly INFORMED why they're doing it.
This is based on the FACT that we have reason to believe that one quarter to one third of all recruits die from poisoning -- and the fact that you never get told that it is imperative that gray wardens go through the ritual. Neither Alistair nor the PC KNOWS why the heck the ritual was there, and Alistair had talked a lot more to dead D than most gray wardens.

Not a big deal, really: My noble human main character doesn't like dead D much, because of dead D's strange decisions and sloppy leadership, and lack of information beeing passed down in the system.
Soldiers HATE when their leaders don't tell them how, why, when and where things are going to happen.

[Janni-in-VA]

"The murderous bastard that killed two of my friends for the heck of it with an obscure blood ritual, and didn't forsee [sic] the betrayal that I foresaw with 2 points in coercion and a 15 second chat with some guy who obvously [sic] isn't going to help the king?"



This is just a note in defense of Duncan. Duncan plainly tells the recruits, "We Wardens pay a heavy price to be what we are." So, since the attrition rate of the Joining is so terrible, the Wardens should stop using it and allow their order to die out? How is using the same ritual every other Warden has been through killing "...two of my friends just for the heck of it..."? Also, Alistair comments that "In my Joining, only one died." Now, we don't know how many recruits were in his Joining, but one might assume that it's possible to have Joining rituals where no one dies at all.



In terms of game logic, there is no way for the Wardens to determine in advance who has the best chance of surviving the Joining. They simply don't have the technology to do things like blood tests or DNA scans. Duncan must use his own experience (and, one presumes, the experience of other recruiters) to judge who might be able to survive. Secondly, the Gray Wardens are an elite order in the sense that they give up everything for their one and only mission -- to fight Darkspawn and end Blights.



This is just one place where I think you judge the game world too harshly because the game isn't what you wish it to be. It all comes down to the choices you make and how willing you are to adapt to the exigencies of the game world and the limitations of the game engine. No, I don't think you should have to sell your soul to succeed in the game, but to expect the game to be anything other than it is is simply not reasonable.



Once again, I'll reiterate my earlier advice. Gaming is supposed to be fun. If a particular game is causing you to become angry and frustrated, then leave it and find something that makes you happier.

[MacroSamurai]

I wouldn't go so far as to say a Warden's darkspawn-sense is 100% for one. Only in some cases is it so accurate that a Warden can easily pick them out. Plus, the Wardens are still largely mistrusted in Ferelden, otherwise there would've already been plenty of Wardens there to begin with. My advice, if possible, is to get your hands on Gaider's two books, particularly The Calling. It sheds a little light on the ordeal.

Additionally, as far as the whole panicking soldiers go, Jory was a wuss to begin with. Duncan needs the people who serve under him to...

1. Be incredibly skilled combatants, because anything less would just be fodder for the number of darkspawn they would have to carve their way through.

2. And have the ability to look terror right in the face and *not* panic.

If you can't cut it, you can't very well be released back into the world to spread word of what the Wardens' ritual is all about. It would do more harm than good because then, few people would want to risk becoming a Warden, and therefore, there would be a serious lack of Wardens to defeat the Blight.

My understanding is, either this Blight just happened to be a fluke; or you (as a Warden) are just that good.

And remember, the Wardens do *anything* to overcome the Blight. That includes silencing people who might let their secret out.

Edit: Additionally, the Wardens aren't your typical, real-world soldiers either. They're middle-of-the-road in morality super heroes in a world with a couple of dragons, super-powered magic, and a massive horde of evil preparing to destroy the world as they know it.

Modifié par MacroSamurai, 15 février 2010 - 04:33 .

[Sidney]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

In terms of game logic, there is no way for the Wardens to determine in advance who has the best chance of surviving the Joining. They simply don't have the technology to do things like blood tests or DNA scans. Duncan must use his own experience (and, one presumes, the experience of other recruiters) to judge who might be able to survive. Secondly, the Gray Wardens are an elite order in the sense that they give up everything for their one and only mission -- to fight Darkspawn and end Blights.

To me the flaw in the game logic isn't the joining, that is a necessary evil but why there are Warden's other than during a blight? Seems like given the price and the fairly meager threat to the non-dwarves of the day-to-day darkspawn threat it is silly to keep around a cadre of suicide soldiers to no good reason. You just need the ritual rules and when the Archdemon shows up get a swarm of volunteers to participate in the joining.