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[TheOtherWind]

At the end of Mass Effect 1 we faced impeding war with the reapers.
At the end of Mass Effect 2 we once again face impeding war with the reapers.

This game was so unnessary. Sure we learned the fate of the protheans and made peace with the geth but other than that what would someone skipping ME2 really miss? Granted, it was a great game but I felt like I was playing gears on far too many occassions. I was so happy when I was fighting geth finally in the reaper IFF mission. I realised all 90% of the enemies up to this point were just human mercanies. Seriously Bioware?

I simply don't understand why Bioware chose to destroy your crew and start over completely with a new crew. I can understand the whole dead for 2 years thing but why should I have to form a completely new crew that is far too large to ever use.  If anything the loyalty missions should have been to get the old crew back together under cerberus. Its like they threw away everything we did in ME1.

Even worst than building the huge crew is the fact that there is no way to even utilize them. Suicide mission is FAR to short. Gone is the epic feeling of the climax on ilos and the Citadel. Felt like I was playing any other generic shooter this gen and that was very dissapointing to say the least.

[TheOtherWind]

Sorry double post

Modifié par TheOtherWind, 14 février 2010 - 09:53 .

[deimosmasque]

I respectfully disagree, TheOtherWind, after the first game we had a vague threat that actually seemed to be defeated soundly. Sovereign was destroyed, the Council was on your side, and humanity had its place among the stars. ME2 through that all for a loop, we found that the Reapers had more agents then just Sovereign, that the Council was more interested in political expediency that handling a true threat, and that in the end the only person Shepard could count on to handle the threat was him/herself.

His new crew exemplifies that, in my opinion. After two years most of them have moved on, either buying the party line or having made sacrifices for what they see as the greater good. A new team was required. So Shepard went out and got it. He may have compromised some of his own ideals, but sometimes to do the right thing you have to do what you don't want to do.

The second game isn't about facing the same threat, it's in realizing that the threat is greater than we first realized. And that we are alone in facing in. At the end of ME1 we thought we had basically foiled the Reapers, they couldn't use the Citadel as a Mass Relay anymore, they couldn't sneak attack the hub of the Galaxy, which is how the Reapers had always won their Galactic Purges. It seemed all that was left was to make sure they could never come back. There is no impending war, just Geth Extremist mop up. As even Miranda recognizes in the o penning.

Enter the Collectors, another tool of the Reapers that were ready and able to pave the way for the Reaper return. If the Human-Reaper (or Pants as some jokingly call him) had been completed, they would have a new herald to attempt to activate the Citadel. Instead it is stopped before it can begin. A much different situation.

But now, we know that the Reapers have other allies in Galactic Space, and just maybe they are heading to the Milky Way without their sneak-attack plan. Now it is real. Now it is pending. The only question is, will anyone help Shepard, or is he still alone.

[Mox Ruuga]

TheOtherWind wrote...

At the end of Mass Effect 1 we faced impeding war with the reapers.
At the end of Mass Effect 2 we once again face impeding war with the reapers.

This game was so unnessary. Sure we learned the fate of the protheans and made peace with the geth but other than that what would someone skipping ME2 really miss? Granted, it was a great game but I felt like I was playing gears on far too many occassions. I was so happy when I was fighting geth finally in the reaper IFF mission. I realised all 90% of the enemies up to this point were just human mercanies. Seriously Bioware?

I simply don't understand why Bioware chose to destroy your crew and start over completely with a new crew. I can understand the whole dead for 2 years thing but why should I have to form a completely new crew that is far too large to ever use.  If anything the loyalty missions should have been to get the old crew back together under cerberus. Its like they threw away everything we did in ME1.

Even worst than building the huge crew is the fact that there is no way to even utilize them. Suicide mission is FAR to short. Gone is the epic feeling of the climax on ilos and the Citadel. Felt like I was playing any other generic shooter this gen and that was very dissapointing to say the least.

Bolded a part of your post, that truly captures the main objection against this sequel.

Good post, I agree with it.

Heh, when you finish a ME1 playthrough, you should keep from immediatly importing your save into ME2. The opening sequence of ME2 just destroys the whole triumph at the end of ME1, and the game never really recovers. Very shortly after, you get your marching orders from TIM and are off to recruit the members of the rogue's gallery and catering to their demands and wishes. Few missions here and there actually dealing with the disappearing colonies (ie. the main plot of the game), which BTW don't seem to concern the Alliance or the Council all that much, after which it's off to the Collector Base to finish the actually pretty easy "suicide" mission.

And the ending? The Reapers... they are still out there! What a shock that was, after the end of ME1, I would have never guessed...

No moments like meeting with Vigil on Ilos, or the revelation about Sovereign's true nature, or even the small triumph of becoming a Spectre. Just a lot of wasted potential, in a largely irrelevant "holding pattern" middle act.

[yoomazir]

What I could never buy,is how the Normady was able ,if you upgrade it, to shoot such a big beam and destroy that giant collector ship.
I mean it felt like a bad sci-fi anime, the collectors were supposed to be very powerfull, but Shep team comes in,wipes out everything including big Skeletor boss,saves everyone and return home by the time of diner and some sexy dance... it didn't feel epic,it was cliché to the death.

Modifié par yoomazir, 14 février 2010 - 12:13 .

[deimosmasque]

There's truth there, ME2 is a bit of a holding pattern kind of story. It knows it's part of a trilogy and it wants to make sure you want to see the third part. Alot of people have been mentioning Star Wars, I'll mention the X-Men movies. X2 left you wanting to know what happens next, Magneto was free, Jean Grey died and the Phoenix seemed to claim her, the government was ready to put mutants in camps.

X-Men the Last Stand, if you liked it or not (personally I did) resolved certain questions and finished off the story.

That's what ME2, a holding pattern to allow you to ask more questions before getting you final answers. And honestly I think it did it's job very well. It did the job better than the Matrix Reloaded did, or honestly better than most sequels do.

[deimosmasque]

yoomazir wrote...

What I could never buy,if how the Normady was able ,if you upgrade it, to shoot such a big beam and destroy that giant collector ship.

You did read the codex on that right?  It was basically a Reaper gun.

[Mox Ruuga]

yoomazir wrote...

What I could never buy,if how the Normady was able ,if you upgrade it, to shoot such a big beam and destroy that giant collector ship.
I mean it felt like a bad sci-fi anime, the collectors were supposed to be very powerfull, but Shep team comes in,wipes out everything including big Skeletor boss,saves everyone and return home by the time of diner and some sexy dance... it didn't feel epic,it was cliché to the death.

The implications of the new reverse engineered cannons are a bit troubling... I hope they don't work as well against the Reapers themselves. Be a bit cheap if they just refit the entire Council and Alliance fleets with new weapons and successfully take on the Reapers ship against ship in ME3...

[deimosmasque]

Well a Collector Ship and a Full-Fledged Reaper (rather than the larva you encounter) are two different things)

[RiouHotaru]

Nozybidaj wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Fhaileas wrote...
My sentiments exactly! I just finished my fourth play-through of ME1 and it was more enjoyable than my first play-through of the incredibly bland and shoddy sequel.

Personally I had to force myself through my fourth playthrough of ME1 before I started my wonderful first playthrough of the sequel.

I was going to go for a fifth, so I'd have a "perfect" Paragon save, but at that point I just asked myself how much of a masochist I really am. (I suppose turning the difficulty down from Insanity might help, though. I'll pick it back up in a couple of months and do both games back to back.)

All depends what you play games for.  ME2 has superior combat and mechanics.  ME1 has superior story and characters.  If I could take the gamplay of ME2 and put the characters of ME1 on top of it that would be the perfect game.  In fact, I wonder why they just didn't do that for ME2?

I still have a hard time believing people really think the characters, characterization, and character development for ME1 was actually better than ME2.  Kaidan/Ashley/Liara feel shallow by comparison, not to mention the way their respective romance are practically ninja-like in their execution.  Tali and Garrus get almost complete overhauls.  And just because characters can die in the suicide mission, doesn't make them less important.  By getting to know the characters, understanding their drives and dreams, it makes the possibilty of their deaths something the player will want to avoid at all costs!  Why else would you make an achievement to award a player who does just that?  You don't want to see the precious comrades you've recruited die, not after helping them and understand the struggles and harship they endure.

[deimosmasque]

Agreeing with RiouHotaru here. Even though I always thought of Legion as nothing more than another Geth (even joked about "Acceptable Loss" when he died) his death during the Suicide Mission hit me.

Kaiden/Ashley's death never hit me as hard.

[RiouHotaru]

Not to mention I always considered the Virmire portion to be...lacking, in emotional punch. I always wished the dialogue made the choice feel more severe. Hell, I wrote a fanfic where Shepard was incredibly torn up because she was in love with Kaidan and had to choose between him and the mission (she chose the mission). I feel that ME1 was a good template, from which the devs could take those game-changing decisions and refine them for use in ME2.

[deimosmasque]

Agreed, my Soldier maleShep playthrough was in love with Ashley, and sacrificed her on Vidimire for the same reason. The mission comes first.

[i7206]

I agree, ME2 was way to light on the story(main story, not character development).



When was it universally agreed upon that because a game/movie/book is the second in a trilogy, that it is acceptable for it to be filler until the finale? Why not make a dualogy, and skip the middle?



I still love ME2, but it doesn't hold a candle to ME1 in terms of the overarching plot.

[Fhaileas]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I still have a hard time believing people really think the characters, characterization, and character development for ME1 was actually better than ME2.  Kaidan/Ashley/Liara feel shallow by comparison, not to mention the way their respective romance are practically ninja-like in their execution.  Tali and Garrus get almost complete overhauls.  And just because characters can die in the suicide mission, doesn't make them less important.  By getting to know the characters, understanding their drives and dreams, it makes the possibilty of their deaths something the player will want to avoid at all costs!  Why else would you make an achievement to award a player who does just that?  You don't want to see the precious comrades you've recruited die, not after helping them and understand the struggles and harship they endure.

I think it speaks volumes that there are quite a few folks clamoring for the original squad (and especially the original love interests) to get a better returning role in the conclusion to the trilogy. I don't necessarily think the old crew was better written than the new one - maybe even the opposite - but you got to know each one way better. You felt like you were part of a team, whereas in the sequel you feel like you're just the figurehead at the front of an army. The "sense" of camaraderie is simply not there.

[Fhaileas]

deimosmasque wrote...

There's truth there, ME2 is a bit of a holding pattern kind of story. It knows it's part of a trilogy and it wants to make sure you want to see the third part.

Where is it stipulated that as the second part of a trilogy, the plot almost HAS to be less engaging or "epic". Any good story has enough plot twists and intrigue for each chapter to stand as a resonating tale all on its own. 

In ME1, subtle story points kept the action alive. You find out early on that a spectre who should be an ally, isn't. You think you're chasing Saren, instead, you're after a reaper. You become a Spectre. The music and revery of the moment makes you feel important, you're excited that the galaxy's highest governing body believes in and is counting on you.

More twists follow. The revelation that the reapers aren't here for the first time; that the Citadel is a huge Mass Relay the Reapers built to force civilizations to develop along a pre-determined technological path; that the Protheans didn't build the relays but were used by them; that they survived long enough to give you a chance to succeed where they failed. Then the council is blown to space dust (or not). All of these plot points make for a great and epic story line because there is always something interesting to discover. For example: even before most of the aforementioned occurs, the fact that an earlier technologically superior race went extinct without a trace is motivation enough to keep searching for clues as to why.

In comparison, ME2 is cheap and hollow. No longer are you a Spectre, or if you are, it means little to nothing. The council is not respected anymore. You're working for someone you don't know and for whom your are given no reason to care for other than, "he put you back together." The characters are interesting, but they aren't tied strongly enough into the overarching plot. Why do I care if Grunt or Miranda survive? I'll pick up new squad members next game anyway.

Plain and simply, ME2 is a boring story. Did anyone really care who The Collectors were? I did. That is until I realized the developers didn't. The collectors are pretty much rehashed secondary plot points... We found out in ME1 that some Protheans were turned into workers for the Reapers, so no surprise there.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 14 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Myrmedus]

I do think there was too much emphasis placed on making the Suicide Mission the big climax. I definitely thought it was excellent, the real highlight of the game, but the problem was that so much focus was put purely on moving the story towards it that the journey along the way became diluted. The sheer number of characters also didn't help with this as I think 10 high-quality characters is too much for a story without causing serious plot issues, unless the story is very long like an FF game but then that would've doubled the development time on ME2.

Work within constraints...you can't produce a plot with tons of well-fleshed out characters with their own story missions AND a qualitatively and quantitively refined main story arc with excellent and detailed art direction and cinematography - there's simply not enough time to do it in a 2 year project especially when dabbling in other projects simultaneously (Dragon Age, Dragon Age: Awakening, etc.)

Also, lots of people are recalling ME2 as being the 'bridge' in the trilogy as a reason to be more forgiving: this fact actually makes me less forgiving. I find it even more important that ME2 get through alot of plot because it was the second in the trilogy and so many - too many - questions are still unanswered from ME1 that without at least scratching into the details a little bit there simply seems to much to get through in ME3.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 février 2010 - 02:36 .

[Rejoy Skinler]

It feels like the game is missing an epilogue in which you would deal with showing the proof of the reapers' threat to the council, Earth, etc. I'd love this as an expansion pack.

[Myrmedus]

Yes we can hope the expansion pack will fill it out somewhat, though I sincerely hope that doesn't become standard proceedure from BW in making its games. Do NOT let EA dilute your games for whatever reason, please, not that I necessarily say they ARE doing so just this kind of dilution wreaks of EA game development....

[Lao Dan]

After playing ME2 once I thought... Okay its a different game,but not too bad.

Halfway through the second game I thought...This just isn't holding my interest.



I finished ME ~10 times. I can't get through ME2 twice.

[Tooneyman]

deimosmasque wrote...

There's truth there, ME2 is a bit of a holding pattern kind of story. It knows it's part of a trilogy and it wants to make sure you want to see the third part. Alot of people have been mentioning Star Wars, I'll mention the X-Men movies. X2 left you wanting to know what happens next, Magneto was free, Jean Grey died and the Phoenix seemed to claim her, the government was ready to put mutants in camps.
X-Men the Last Stand, if you liked it or not (personally I did) resolved certain questions and finished off the story.
That's what ME2, a holding pattern to allow you to ask more questions before getting you final answers. And honestly I think it did it's job very well. It did the job better than the Matrix Reloaded did, or honestly better than most sequels do.

Yeah lets just make sure all the endings to the game don't suck. Period!

[Pauravi]

Fhaileas wrote...
I don't necessarily think the old crew was better written than the new one - maybe even the opposite - but you got to know each one way better.

I highly disagree.  I think that the personalities and backgrounds of the ME2 characters are much better developed than the ME1 characters were.  ALL of them, maybe with the exception of Grunt.  The dialogues were longer, better, and more plentiful, and the loyalty quests were all very revealing.  The character quests in ME1 didn't reveal ANYTHING about the respective characters, you were just doing them a favor to make them happy.

Oh well, whatever.  Most of the people in these threads have already made up their minds anyway.  I just wanted to say that I'm not disappointed in ME2 in the least.  I think that the very compelling characters driving the storyline makes up for the somewhat less epic scope of the plot, and the other bullsh*t like the inventory system I just don't care about losing.  In fact I like the new one better anyway -- IMO, gameplay is 100% improved.

A++ for ME2.

[Walther9]

I enjoyed ME2 a lot, it's a great game, and I didn't mind the mechanics changes.

But some things niggle me about the story.

Why kill Shepard? Putting aside the implausibility of his ressurection, it just seemed frivolous and ultimately pointless as a plot device. There is nothing he does as a Cerberus Operative that he could not have done as a Spectre.

Get new and upgraded Normandy? Check!
Get new team of bad-asses custom selected by (insert source here) databases? Check!
Fight Merc Groups, Geth and Collectors? Check!
Visit various Terminus Systems? Check!
Respec and restart from level one? Check! (Normandy destroyed in Collector attack, Shepard recovered but badly injured, rebuilt Steve Austin style by Spectre.

Linearity. Linearity rules ME2.
Quests. Release points for new Dossiers, Loyalties, etc, all linear. Within limited guidelines you have a very narrow choice but to follow the standard path.
Levels. You could basically turn almost every level into a single perfectly straight corridor with groups of baddies to fight along the way. This kills both choice and the feeling of exploration.

[Wildhide]

I agree with Pauravi, I'll say that. I accepted about 2 recruitment missions into the game that the Collecters were just a MacGuffin to give you motivation, the game was about the individual characters. I loved it, liked it more than ME1, and I'm agonizing to force myself through ME1 again for a perfect Renegade so I can take him to ME2. Every time I load ME1 I have to force myself to start playing because while it's a good game, I could be loading ME2, and I just found that one better.

[Wildhide]

Walther9 wrote...

I enjoyed ME2 a lot, it's a great game, and I didn't mind the mechanics changes.

But some things niggle me about the story.

Why kill Shepard? Putting aside the implausibility of his ressurection, it just seemed frivolous and ultimately pointless as a plot device. There is nothing he does as a Cerberus Operative that he could not have done as a Spectre.

Get new and upgraded Normandy? Check!
Get new team of bad-asses custom selected by (insert source here) databases? Check!
Fight Merc Groups, Geth and Collectors? Check!
Visit various Terminus Systems? Check!
Respec and restart from level one? Check! (Normandy destroyed in Collector attack, Shepard recovered but badly injured, rebuilt Steve Austin style by Spectre.

Linearity. Linearity rules ME2.
Quests. Release points for new Dossiers, Loyalties, etc, all linear. Within limited guidelines you have a very narrow choice but to follow the standard path.
Levels. You could basically turn almost every level into a single perfectly straight corridor with groups of baddies to fight along the way. This kills both choice and the feeling of exploration.

Hate to break it to you, but Linearity ruled ME1 as well.  Most places were one of 3 or 4 basic building models with no branching paths for the sidequests.  All the main quests were long, singular corridors as well.  And you could pick which of the 3 main quest plots to do first, and then pick Virmire before the last if you wanted, but it's just as linear as doing the first half of your recruitments in ME2, which at least gives you 10 more loyalty quests you can do for each character at any point of recruiting the others.

At least some of the ME2 quests weren't entirely linear, and I had to doubleback here and there to check for upgrades, etc.