facialstrokage wrote...
Noted Literally wrote...
Now, what you seem to be arguing is that Mass Effect 2 has more interesting characters than Mass Effect 1. That's one thing, its a good thing, but it isn't development. The characters don't change in ME2, we learn more about them but they don't grow. (Exception: my understanding is that pursuing a romance subplot does develop characters, which is good but there are 10 other characters that aren't developed.) Mordin has a classic do-the-ends-justify-the-means conflict but its a static conflict. Its one thing to say 'hey I did this thing in the past.' The test of a character in such a situation is to see, given the same situation, would they do it again? Without such tests and milestones there is no measurable change in a character. You can argue with Mordin, but you'll never know whether or not he really feels differently.
Ok, I didn't make my point clear. My fault. What I'm trying to say isn't that characters grow or mature. But rather, you find out more about them as the story progresses. Developing a relationship with a character, you could say. The point is, though, that discovering a character's story and life background has a lot of poignant moments. I think it was these intense moments that made ME2. Like when Mordin contemplates killing his student, or Jack deciding whether killing her former cell mate will really set her free. You simply didn't see the same drama in ME1. The most emotional moment I recall was deciding who to save on Virmire. I remember on Mordin's loyalty mission, you literally had like 3 seconds to save the dude, as Mordin was ready to blast his ass into oblivion. The interrupt system was so well integrated because you weren't totally in control. Mordin really wanted to kill him!! And if you hesitate, he was dead ( I actualy don't know because I saved him, but that's beside the point, as I wouldn't know until my second playthrough). The point is that such a subtle thing as a time limit actually put you, the player, on the spot, and the tension is exponentially greater than simply going through the story, taking your sweet old time, deciding which decision you really would enjoy the most.
It was suspense combined with tension that really took me by the throat in the game. There are more examples where I literally cringed because there was so much tension and drama with your companions. That type of interaction was not available in ME1. And the more you get to know your characters in ME2, the more emotion, drama, and realism you get in return.
To some extent, you could say this doesn't add to the story, but that depends how you define story. If story is simply the plot/ events that go down in the canal of history, then by all means, the story sucks! But look at some of the great books of literature, Grapes of Wrath, Brave New World, Macbeth, etc. It's the experience that counts. The ending of Grapes of Wrath was unforgettable for its emotional charge. Brave New World brought ethical questions into light, and Macbeth connected the readers with the protagonist by put them in his shoes rather than objectifying him as practically all authors before Shakepeare did. Similarly, ME2 is about the emotional, moral, and spiritual sensations it evokes.
If your point is that Mass Effect 2 manages to have a lot more good 'moments' I'd absolutely agree. But the problem is that while there are those intense points of emotion, they happen and then are never mentioned for the rest of the game. My issue with the game is not that it doesn't set up strong characters, its that it sets up strong characters and then doesn't do anything with them. It's all well and good for Shepard to step and prevent Jack from killing the other survivor. But that's Shepard showing Jack the path to freedom, the question is whether or not Jack walks it, whether or not she
can release her past. And the tragedy is that the suicide mission is the perfect place to test that (ergo whether or not she is able to release her path in the form of her antipathy for Miranda.) Basically my critique is not that ME2 has weak characters, and its not that it has weak moments. It's that it has literally the perfect opportunity to demonstrate the real outcome of those missions, whether or not the squad members are able to overcome themselves and prove it to themselves. And it doesn't. It boggles the mind.
And your examples kinda prove my point - the reason that Brave New World is important is not just the world it invokes, it's about the reactions of the characters to the differences between their worlds, most dramatically in the form of John, who starts out wanting to experience life in said New World and ends up rejecting it and hanging himself. Macbeth is entirely about change, its about the transformation of a popular, beloved leader into a cruel and vicious tyrant, and we can point to specific points in each act that demonstrate this change. And I never read the Grapes of Wrath, but even skimming the wikipedia I can point to the character of Rose of Sharon. None of these works content themselves to merely exploring the characters at the beginning - the characters change and grow with time, and are notably and demonstrately different at the end. Hell, Macbeth is noticably different at the beginning and end of each Act! The moments that impact us are the ones that demonstrate, conclusively and undeniabley, that a character has changed, like Macbeth's breakdown, or John's suicide as his ultimate rejection of the Brave New World. (Alternatively there are thematic moments, but honestly that's not something I expect from Bioware, that's more Obsidion's forte.)
JediMB wrote...
There's "a lot" (compared to ME1) of actual development through the
course of the game. At least, there can be, as most of it is optional.
Miranda
became more open about her past, more accepting of herself, and grew to
realize that the Illusive Man wasn't as great as she had thought him to
be for all those years.
Grunt found purpose, and grew to agree with what his "father" had taught him.
Thane
found new purpose, going from suicidal to wanting to take care of his
son. He may also finally get over his wife's death and find new love.
Jack softened up a bit after dealing with her past, and romancing her lets her change even more.
Mordin started to doubt his previous moral superiority regarding his work on the genophage.
Samara,
despite basically being a Matriarch, developed feelings for someone for
the first time since the crushing realization that all of her children
were Ardat-Yakshi. This was a very big thing to her, although she
couldn't allow herself to act on it.
It's actually kind of
funny how several of the characters' development is tied into their
statuses as love interests, putting the player in a position where he
or she is directly responsible for whether or not they change.
Miranda does reject the Illusive man, and rather decisively if you
bring her along to the final boss battle. In fact, now that you
mention it, you're right, that was a very good moment, tied in with her accepting Shepard as a leader. I'll retract my previous statement that there was no character development, Miranda has changed, although she still has to admit that Cerberus did f'd up things to Jack (and don't tell me that the Illusive Man didn't know, guy has monitering devices up the wazoo in the Normany, why would that other facility be different.)
Grunt begins to find his place, but never really cements it in my opinion. He's still a hop, a skip, and a jump away from a nihilistic rage. He should have to choose between a fight for its own sake, and completing a more important objective. The difference between a flailing fighter, and a warrior.
Thane is also on the borderline. He's trying with his son, but its still too easy for him to return to his death-seeking. I'm reminded of Batman in The Dark Knight Returns 'This would be a good death... but not good enough.' Thane needs a point where he has the opportunity for a good death, and rejects it.
Jack begins to soften up, but she still holds tightly onto her hatred of everything associated with Cerberus. She has to let that go, too; and she can, if she chooses not to kill Miranda when she has the chance (or Jacob I guess but there isn't the same level of animosity there.)
I'd completely disagree about Mordin, if you thought he was being
morally superior previously I think you're missing the point. His
crisis of faith was prior to the beginning of the game, his clinic in
Omega was him trying to balance out his actions. In fact, I don't think he demonstrates even the beginnings of a change in his beliefs. But he could be given the opportunity to reaffirm them or change them somehow. A point where by doing some good, he chances a greater evil, a microsm of his previous choice. And we can see if he makes the same one he did previously.
Samara is broken. Yeah you have that semi-romance option, but I wouldn't take it to be honest, it seems cruel to me, I think she needs a friend more than a lover. Leaving that aside for a moment Samara is kinda the opposite of Thane. Whereas Thane is beginning to climb out of being a death-seeker, Samara as a 'broken and ruined shell' stands on the verge of becoming one. You could give her the same sort of choice as Thane, although she's a bit more subtle than him and her scene would probably need to be more explicit about why this is a tempting choice for her. Hell, the romance thing just exacerbates this, its a reminder of what exactly she has to look forward to in the rest of her life: self-denial, and the constant danger of slipping and creating the exact same problem she just 'resolved.'
Basically, all of these characters, including Miranda, enter the suicide mission on the borderline of change, for good or ill. They've all taken steps towards doing things differently in their lives or philosophies, but haven't yet really committed. But Miranda is forced into a situation where she has to choose - does she change her views on Cerberus and what exactly is justified in the pursuit of humanity's interests? And she does. I fistpumped when this happened, because it was awesome to see the same woman who said 'only time will tell if you will be an asset or a liability to our cause' come around to my point of view. But the same sort of things should have been done for Grunt, Thane, Jack, Mordin, and Samara. Or if not all of them, than at least most of them, the ones that stick out as really needing said resolution (Jack probably tops that list).
Then there are all the other characters that could use some sort of conclusion to their arcs. And, like I laid out in my earlier post in this thread, the perfect place to do this at the end of the game; dramatically speaking its pretty much the only place. It would, granted, have made the long and exhausting, but it would also be a few hours of nonstop awesome, and watching as the rippling effects of your choices and dialogues throughout the entire prior game come together. While it wouldn't have made the Reapers any weaker, it would have given the protagonists significant narrative momentum, possibly enough for them to punch out Cthulu. Maybe.
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