467 réponses à ce sujet

[swenson]

Maybe they were planning to destroy it, but when they found out it was still active, the priority became getting out of there as quickly as possible.



Or maybe they didn't know the structure of Collector ships before EDI connected to their system, so they didn't know the location of the reactor beforehand, and only were able to figure it out later?

[88mphSlayer]

swenson wrote...

Maybe they were planning to destroy it, but when they found out it was still active, the priority became getting out of there as quickly as possible.

Or maybe they didn't know the structure of Collector ships before EDI connected to their system, so they didn't know the location of the reactor beforehand, and only were able to figure it out later?

they could still damage the thing, land with a nuke on the shuttle, just before you lift off leave the thing on the ship with a timer

[Vaenier]

Why not just carry a nuke with you at all times? Shep could use one so many times, and never has one with her. Its not like it would be big, it would take place of a gun at most, probably smaller in the future. So many problems solved...

[XavierHollywood]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Problem with that is that it was shown before Horizon. The only 'samples' we've picked up were on Freedom's Progress.

Mordin synthesized the swarm bug on the Normandy with the detailed data from Veetor's omnitool.  Mordin even says something to the effect that organic synthesizing is taking place when u pester him about it.

[InvincibleHero]

didymos1120 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
The largest plot hole I think is the fact whomever you (a mere Commander though first human Spectre) chose to be Councilor at the end of ME1 actaully was picked by humanity/Alliance. I mean and Ambassador and a captain. There are much higher ranking more influential people that would be able to easily get the nod. However, just because Shepard says so bam it happens. I like the sense of power it gives you, but never going to happen. Especially since Shepard was second-guessed and distrusted throught ME1.

Actually, both were intimately involved in the events of the game, and per Revelation, the head Ambassadors to the Citadel are about as important as one gets in the Alliance system.  Plus, you're forgetting the Council was rather inclined to listen to your recommendation at that point, since you'd saved their scaly asses and and stopped Saren, or dead.  In the former case, if they think Shep's recommendation sounds good, you can damn well bet on the Alliance going along with that.  In the latter, you have Udina either taking the job himself or going along with Anderson taking the post.  As stated, Citadel Ambassadors are a big deal.  They're basically one rung below the Council itself, so you can damn well bet Udina was listened too as well. 

And let's not forget: Spectres matter a whole hell of a lot, and can demand just about anything from anyone other than the Council itself. The fact that Shep is a  "mere" Commander in the Alliance is irrelevent. 

It makes sense in a wartime appointment, but everyone thinks after you beat Saren the threat is over. The Council never listened to you before and it is only a suggestion. They assume the rest of humanity that calls the shots would go along with Shepard's suggestion. That's like saying Mac Arthur deserved to pick a person that would effectively rule the whole US if the UN actaully was set up like the council. He was a 5 star general, and it still doesn't wash. Fact, is whatever leadership humanity has would make the call. Udina isn't the boss, but a lackey of those leaders on Earth. Whatever, constitutional/reppublic/dictatorship or gform of government the alliance has they would still make the call.

Even if council rep isn't as powerful as it seems they could recall and replace at will.

[swenson]

Their relief at being saved by Shepard (or the human government's gratitude that they're now in power) could encourage them to listen closely to her, I guess.



I agree it doesn't make that much sense, though. Unless you interpret it as simply a suggestion Shepard made and they conveniently happened to decide the same thing?

[XavierHollywood]

swenson wrote...

Their relief at being saved by Shepard (or the human government's gratitude that they're now in power) could encourage them to listen closely to her, I guess.

I agree it doesn't make that much sense, though. Unless you interpret it as simply a suggestion Shepard made and they conveniently happened to decide the same thing?

The way i took it was Shepard was only giving a vote of confidence for Anderson/Udina.  It wasnt the actual deciding factor.  Given that Shepard had become a galactic hero at this point tho, Shepards choice was overwhelmingly popular with humans and Anderson/Udina won the following elections or whatever.

[greatgeek]

Why does Saren need the Conduit? As a Spectre is shouldn't be that difficult to gain access to the Citadel Tower.

[88mphSlayer]

greatgeek wrote...

Why does Saren need the Conduit? As a Spectre is shouldn't be that difficult to gain access to the Citadel Tower.

besides the semantics of his Spectre status being revoked at the beginning of the game, Saren had to prevent citadel control from closing the station so Sovereign could get inside and setup the link to dark space, which i'm guessing he wouldn't have been able to do on his own

[greatgeek]

88mphSlayer wrote...

greatgeek wrote...

Why does Saren need the Conduit? As a Spectre is shouldn't be that difficult to gain access to the Citadel Tower.

besides the semantics of his Spectre status being revoked at the beginning of the game, Saren had to prevent citadel control from closing the station so Sovereign could get inside and setup the link to dark space, which i'm guessing he wouldn't have been able to do on his own

 Saren was searching for the Conduit before his Spectre status was revoked.

[wulf3n]

That's the biggest problem i've noticed with ME1's story.



Instead of just having saren try and open the citadel relay, or attack the citadel while they're unprepared (before you attack eden prime), sovereign goes on a wild goose chase for something they don't even know will solve their problem, in the process alerting the citadel to a geth attack, there by increasing their defenses.

[didymos1120]

greatgeek wrote...

Why does Saren need the Conduit? As a Spectre is shouldn't be that difficult to gain access to the Citadel Tower.

Yeah I'm sure activating hidden systems no one new about in just about the most politically important location in the galaxy and fiddling with them wouldn't have been at all suspcious or likely to end in complete failure, especially when his job tends to involve not being anywhere near the Council Chamber 99% of time.  And don't go bringing the "He could have done it during off-hours" excuse into it.  Like they'd just have zero security on site and turn off the all the cameras after 5 PM or whatever.

[Sandbox47]

MMkain wrote...

In the opening scene Joker spends a great deal of time unprotected in space. While this isn't a plot whole it does strike me as a glaring error. Infact there are multiple instances in the game where party members have exposed flesh while in inhospitible conditions.

There's a shield that covers the cockpit.

Also, I really enjoyed reading your "plot holes" because they show exactly how little mistakes Bioware has done! It's mainly just issues with the way the game looks and not actual holes in the plot.

The FTL out of the centre of the galaxy but th need for a Relay to get there is easy to explain.
You don't know where exactly in the centre you have to go and the Relay - "relays" you there. But returning out of that place is simply because you know of several good places to go to without the need for a Relay, like the outside of the galactic core.

So I think that BioWare deserves some credit for their well written game

[pprrff]

wulf3n wrote...

That's the biggest problem i've noticed with ME1's story.

Instead of just having saren try and open the citadel relay, or attack the citadel while they're unprepared (before you attack eden prime), sovereign goes on a wild goose chase for something they don't even know will solve their problem, in the process alerting the citadel to a geth attack, there by increasing their defenses.

I figure that's because Saren needs enough ground troops to do whatever he is going to do to close the citadel with Sovereign in it. Without any his ground troops, Saren has no chance once C-Sec wise up to what he is doing. Without Saren, Sovereign would be sitting duck for the citadel fleet. If he brings his ground troops through ships, then Saren has to fight through the citadel fleet, which might be too late since the Council could have the arms closed before he gets there. So the only real option for him is to come through the conduit, which requires him to find the mu-relay, find Illos and do all of that ****.

What's never explained was how Saren or Sovereign ever knew of the existence of the conduit in the first place. Did they always knew about it but needed a Prothean relay to confirm? or what?

[88mphSlayer]

greatgeek wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

greatgeek wrote...

Why does Saren need the Conduit? As a Spectre is shouldn't be that difficult to gain access to the Citadel Tower.

besides the semantics of his Spectre status being revoked at the beginning of the game, Saren had to prevent citadel control from closing the station so Sovereign could get inside and setup the link to dark space, which i'm guessing he wouldn't have been able to do on his own

 Saren was searching for the Conduit before his Spectre status was revoked.

well you had Turian/Asari fleets guarding the Citadel and all of C-Sec so taking control of the station wouldn't be easy at all, you also had the problem where the keepers no longer could receive Sovereign's signal to open/close the station at will thanks to the Prothean scientists who survived on ilos 50,000 years who went back to the Citadel via the conduit and sabotaged future efforts to repeat a surprise attack

meaning if Sovereign was going to get inside the station and have the arms closed so nobody could interrupt Sovereign from linking with dark space somebody needed to maintain total control of station for a prolonged period of time, that somebody would be Saren and the 3rd group whose task was to eliminate station security would be the geth heretics

the bigger plot hole is the introduction of the collectors in ME2, who obviously were around in ME1 but Sovereign never used them for the attack, and who conceivably should've already been abducting colonists even prior to the events of ME1 unless blowing up Sovereign was all it took to convince the reapers that humanity was worthy of being reaperized

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:58 .

[wulf3n]

didymos1120 wrote...
Yeah I'm sure activating hidden systems no one new about in just about the most politically important location in the galaxy and fiddling with them wouldn't have been at all suspcious or likely to end in complete failure, especially when his job tends to involve not being anywhere near the Council Chamber 99% of time.  And don't go bringing the "He could have done it during off-hours" excuse into it.  Like they'd just have zero security on site and turn off the all the cameras after 5 PM or whatever.

He's a spectre, and not just any spectre he's the best spectre, im sure he could make up some bs, and they'd all believe it. He wouldn't need to go in during off hours, he could probably do it while the council was in session and it still not be a problem.

[didymos1120]

wulf3n wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Yeah I'm sure activating hidden systems no one new about in just about the most politically important location in the galaxy and fiddling with them wouldn't have been at all suspcious or likely to end in complete failure, especially when his job tends to involve not being anywhere near the Council Chamber 99% of time.  And don't go bringing the "He could have done it during off-hours" excuse into it.  Like they'd just have zero security on site and turn off the all the cameras after 5 PM or whatever.

He's a spectre, and not just any spectre he's the best spectre, im sure he could make up some bs, and they'd all believe it. He wouldn't need to go in during off hours, he could probably do it while the council was in session and it still not be a problem.

Right, he could just walk up to the platform where petitioners stand, in the middle of meeting, and go "Oh, don't mind me.  Spectre business" and activate a system no one was aware of and start fiddling with it.  Not to mention, I'm pretty sure the keepers, which are all over the Council Chamber, would not just ignore some random organic fiddling with the master control panel of the Citadel.  Besides: Sovereign would have still had to dock and do his computer voodoo to actually activate the relay function.  So even in the highly unlikely event that actually Saren managed to get the ball rolling, the giant ship and geth escorts barreling towards the Citadel at that same moment probably would have been a clue that Saren was up to no good.  And there he is all on his lonesome in the Council Chamber, job not finished, and no geth army watching his back and keeping C-Sec busy with a full-scale assault, to say nothing of security in the chamber itself.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .

[swenson]

pprrff wrote...


What's never explained was how Saren or Sovereign ever knew of the existence of the conduit in the first place. Did they always knew about it but needed a Prothean relay to confirm? or what?

I figured that was what he found out on Eden Prime.

The way I understand it, the original intention was that the Keepers would do whatever was necessary to activate the relay-ness of the Citadel, allowing Sovereign to link up, close the arms, etc. The Keepers being the Keepers, no one would question them (or, likely, be able to stop them even if they wanted to) until after Sovereign already arrived. Perhaps they'd even be able to screw with ship navigation controls/communications around the Citadel, leaving all Council forces powerless to even make an attempt at counterattacking when Sovereign showed up.

The Protheans threw a wrench into this, however. This was likely discovered before the game begins, when the Reapers sent the signal but nothing happened. Sovereign (who I'm going to suppose was left inside the galaxy as an emergency measure, although this is never stated) realized he needed another way into the Citadel. He figured the Protheans were the best bet to find another way, so he grabbed hold of a convenient person in a position of power (the Spectre Saren).

Then the Eden Prime beacon was found. Sovereign immediately sent Saren to go get the information from it. It's at this point that I believe Sovereign and Saren discovered the existence of the Conduit--the small version of a relay that the Protheans were able to build as a back door into the Citadel. Sovereign realized this was their way in. He couldn't just fly in and hook up, because he'd be attacked and it's possible there was something that had to be done on the Citadel itself (whatever the Keepers were supposed to do). So he decided that once they found the Conduit, he would send Saren and an invasion force (to keep everyone off Saren's back while Saren did whatever was necessary) through it.

But they didn't quite know the location of the Conduit, which is why they had to go find the Thorian on Feros, and so on. Sovereign obviously didn't expect the intervention of Shepard (who was really only on Eden Prime by chance at the same time that Saren was... and only activated the beacon accidentally anyway) and the stripping of Saren of his Spectre status, and ultimately it was this variable that he didn't account for that led to the defeat of Saren--Shepard was just too close behind them and was able to figure out things almost as quickly as they did.

That's a bit long and covers quite a bit more than what you originally asked, but I think there's a lot of misconceptions about the story that some people interpret as plot holes when there's actually an in-universe explanation for them. I doubt I got it perfectly right, anyway, but this is how I took the plot of the first game.

[didymos1120]

swenson wrote...

pprrff wrote...


What's never explained was how Saren or Sovereign ever knew of the existence of the conduit in the first place. Did they always knew about it but needed a Prothean relay to confirm? or what?

I figured that was what he found out on Eden Prime.

No.  They went to Eden Prime hoping to get more information about where the Conduit was actually located.  Hence the "one step closer to finding the Conduit" in Tali's recording of Saren and Benezia talking after the Eden Prime attack.  That statement makes no sense if they'd only just learned of its existence. Clearly, as they saw it, they'd already taken some steps towards finding it, which means they already knew about it.

The simple fact is, the game doesn't tell us how or when Sovereign or Saren first learned of it.  And really, it's irrelevant.  The fact that they did is what set the plot in motion.  It's a premise, and not really part of the plot itself, which revolves around finding out where the stupid thing is.  That said, the most likely source is the other beacon Saren had on Virmire.  It'd clearly been there for quite a while (and no: it doesn't really matter where they found that).

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 janvier 2011 - 05:35 .

[Interactive Civilian]

I have a suspicion that it's not only about Saren and Sovereign finding out where it is, but also *what* it is.

Unless I've missed something, all Sovereign knows is that the signal didn't work on the keepers, and he has somehow found out about the Protheans using something called "The Conduit" to sabotage the Reaper plan. If I had to guess, they learned this from another, probably damaged, beacon, before Eden Prime (perhaps the one on Virmire?). I'm guessing they didn't know what the Conduit actually was until they reached Ilos. So, everything else was them trying to find out what the Conduit was. On Feros, they got the Cipher from the Thorian, which let them better interpret the beacon messages (and showed them where the Conduit was). On Noveria, they got the location of the Mu Relay which they needed to get to Ilos. Virmire was simply Saren's base of operations as well as the location of the other beacon (which may or may not have been found there).

At that point of reaching Ilos and (somehow) finding out what the Conduit was and what the Protheans actually did, the plan was for Sovereign to launch his attack, which would get the attention of everyone at the Citadel. Simultaneously, Saren used the Conduit to invade from the inside with his Geth, taking advantage of the confusion to take control of the Citadel Tower. At which point, Sovereign then entered the Citadel and they closed the Wards.

Everything Shepard does is basically retracing their steps while trying to catch them.

Anyway, there is no plot hole with using the Conduit if the assumption is correct that they didn't know what the Conduit actually was until they got to Ilos.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 14 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[shnizzler93]

Of course there are going to be plot holes. The writers are only human. They don't have the time to analyze/ scrutinize every piece of lore/data/etc in the game because they still have to release it, they still need to earn a living.



Also, trying to over-analyze some pieces of work tends to reduce the feeling of joy over experiencing it. For me, at least, if I try to explain to myself everything that occurs within a piece of fiction, that ruins the 'immersion.'



Sometimes, it is just better to take things as they are and don't think too much of it.

[wulf3n]

didymos1120 wrote...
Right, he could just walk up to the platform where petitioners stand, in the middle of meeting, and go "Oh, don't mind me.  Spectre business" and activate a system no one was aware of and start fiddling with it.  Not to mention, I'm pretty sure the keepers, which are all over the Council Chamber, would not just ignore some random organic fiddling with the master control panel of the Citadel.  Besides: Sovereign would have still had to dock and do his computer voodoo to actually activate the relay function.  So even in the highly unlikely event that actually Saren managed to get the ball rolling, the giant ship and geth escorts barreling towards the Citadel at that same moment probably would have been a clue that Saren was up to no good.  And there he is all on his lonesome in the Council Chamber, job not finished, and no geth army watching his back and keeping C-Sec busy with a full-scale assault, to say nothing of security in the chamber itself.

It's pretty much the same plan as he used at the end, only with a better chance for success. For starters Noveria shows that geth can quite easily be smuggled places, so getting a decent supply of geth in and on the citadel isn't impossible. Secondly you don't have an increased naval presence, prepared for an attack from geth, to help defend the citadel. Sovereign and all the geth ships, against the original citadel guard fleet, would have little trouble defeating them.

Modifié par wulf3n, 14 janvier 2011 - 12:55 .

[pprrff]

wulf3n wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Right, he could just walk up to the platform where petitioners stand, in the middle of meeting, and go "Oh, don't mind me.  Spectre business" and activate a system no one was aware of and start fiddling with it.  Not to mention, I'm pretty sure the keepers, which are all over the Council Chamber, would not just ignore some random organic fiddling with the master control panel of the Citadel.  Besides: Sovereign would have still had to dock and do his computer voodoo to actually activate the relay function.  So even in the highly unlikely event that actually Saren managed to get the ball rolling, the giant ship and geth escorts barreling towards the Citadel at that same moment probably would have been a clue that Saren was up to no good.  And there he is all on his lonesome in the Council Chamber, job not finished, and no geth army watching his back and keeping C-Sec busy with a full-scale assault, to say nothing of security in the chamber itself.

It's pretty much the same plan as he used at the end, only with a better chance for success. For starters Noveria shows that geth can quite easily be smuggled places, so getting a decent supply of geth in and on the citadel isn't impossible. Secondly you don't have an increased naval presence, prepared for an attack from geth, to help defend the citadel. Sovereign and all the geth ships, against the original citadel guard fleet, would have little trouble defeating them.

The problem I felt wasn't the increase in fleet defense, but to maintain control of the citadel long enough for Soveveign to dock. I am guessing that C-Sec is alot more compentent at screening cargo than Noveria security. Note that Noveria is only research and corporate outpost in the middle of a harsh blizzard. Citadel is a city of millions, so it naturally will have a much much larger military presence.

[Vaenier]

It would be a piece of cake for a Specter to smuggle Geth onto the Citadel. Just look at Shep bring Legion through the increased security. A dead non Specter brings a fully functional Geth that everyone knows is what a Geth looks like onto the citadel and not a single person cares at all... A specter bringing geth that nobody knows what they look like through a reduced security citadel would be a joke.

[Dean_the_Young]

The only thing that's apparently geth about Legion is the shell. Which is hardly impossible (or unlikely) to be copied by other attention-seekers.



Geth can look like anything, in any form. The frame doesn't much matter one way or another.