467 réponses à ce sujet

[madman0311]

Double post, my bad.

Modifié par madman0311, 16 janvier 2011 - 06:19 .

[Moiaussi]

Il Divo wrote...

'Killed a Reaper', saved the Citadel, brought down a top Spectre, portrayed as the human ideal by the press, shown to be a capable leader, first human Spectre. Take your pick. Mass Effect 1 pretty much serves as his resume` for his usage in Mass Effect 2.

You have to admit, spending those kinds of resources ressurrecting someone when you cannot be sure in advance how well it would work does seem a little crazy.

Why not exactly?

The classic ME1 example would be Saren's one shot assassination of Nihilus. Cut scenes should conform to game mechanics.

Plot hole? More like animation trouble.

Animation shortcuts are not animation trouble. If they wanted to have a scene with Shepard drinking, they should have animated him removing his helmet if any as part of the animation.
 

...Explain the Reaper motivation in Mass Effect. Not to mention, the purpose of reproduction is self-fulfilling. It's how they create more Reapers.

Which doesn't explain it being humanoid. Reproduction makes sense. The methods do not.

Shepard arrives. Starts shooting people. Interrupts things.

And yet the VS, who never ran and hid before this time conveniently does so until the battle is over, not even coming in to help near the end and contrary to the opening scene of Horizon suggesting they were one of the first to go down.

If the Reapers were as efficient as they claimed, there would have been no traces of the past civilizations either. Space is big. Things escape notice. The point of Klendagon is that we don't know what happened there right now.

That is a major plot hole though. If things escape notice that easily, why didn't the last Protheans (or some other prior race) simply pull a Quarian manuever and just keep running?

Not to mention we learned about that hull in ME1, and the fact that this wasn't just some colony the reapers didn't clean up, but the husk of one of their own, which appearantly wasn't even dead yet. They had to have some idea where to search at least.

Such as?

We know the Normandy can disengage nigh instantly, yet instead in the opening scene, Joker not only lets the Collector vessel intercept the Normany, but then does 'evasive maneuvers' rather than simply going faster and disengaging. He doesn't even try turning. It is the classic "OMG a vehicle is chasing me! I'd better run down the centre of the road to drag out the chase!"

Not a plot hole. It's Reaper technology which is not necessary for us to understand. Go read up on Clarke's third law.

Clarke's third law may imply it is merely sufficiently advanced technology, but said law does not say it will be entertaining to audiences or a coherrent part of any given plot.

[Praetor Knight]

Well, regarding Thermal Clips the issue is how do they work? So I thought I'd share something I found recently when I went back to the game manual.

Here is clue as to how they work; this is from the 360 game manual, page 14:




The second paragraph mentions: Thermal Clips hold a store of disposable Heat Sinks.



Also on page 10, the manual calls this part of the HUD (shown below) Heat Management:



And describes on that page that it displays "your equipped weapon's current thermal capacity"

Lastly on page 21 there is a really short section on Thermal Clips that states: "This represents the number of shots you can take with individual guns."

So I understand is that, according to the bolded parts in the paragraphs above, each gun has a different thermal capacity for the number of shots with the chambered thermal clip.


So hypothetically, the Avenger can eject the Heat Sink material a total 11 times for 440 shots fired.

With the same logic, the Mantis can eject the Heat Sink material a total of 10 times for 10 shots.



My question is how do the Thermal Clips stack inside the guns if at all and whether the Thermal Clip goes inside the gun or just acts as a container to load more Heat Sinks into the guns?

[Fromyou]

Everyone leaving when the Reaper IFF being installed. I wrote a forum questioning this months ago.

[madman0311]

@praetor, but it also says they are otional and are there in case you do not want to wait for your gun to cool down. Also, why limited ammo than?

[Moiaussi]

madman0311 wrote...

She has DIRECT CONTROL of the ship already. It's just a simple console that joker had to go to. EDI can have access easily.

It is not unreasonable for there to have been some limits on her contol, given she is an AI, such as her not being able to evacuate the ship to vacuum (which was the plot device used to eliminate the collectors).

If you want a plot hole though, why wouldn't they have had a sip full of suffocated collectors to study? Its not like they were all conveniently by the airlock. They should have had convenient samples to bring to the Council and say 'See? Prothean!"

Although there still is the plot hole of how EDI had a baseline prothean DNA sample from anywhere to compare to.

So let me get this straight. When robots get shot,
they start feeling weak in the knees, clutch at their bullet would and slowly
die like an actual organic rather than a system failure?

Gotcha.

They are not just robots. They are androids, originally programmed to work in and around Quarians (hence the bipedal forms, etc). They could have organic style death sequences to enterain those they were working around, or even put them in themselves in an effort to be more 'organic.'

[Praetor Knight]

madman0311 wrote...

@praetor, but it also says they are otional and are there in case you do not want to wait for your gun to cool down. Also, why limited ammo than?

Wait where does it say that it is optional?

Well the ammo brick/block is separate from the Heat Management system, in my understanding.

My only problem with how it is executed in ME2 is that Shep does not automatically replenish the thermal capacity automatically after a fight and has to go around collecting instead.

[Moiaussi]

The only real plot holes regarding thermal clips is why they aren't all reusable and why the supply isn't communal between weapons.



Also why do we keep leaving the Normandy without a full complement of heavy weapons ammo and biogel.

[madman0311]

Moiaussi wrote...
It is not unreasonable for there to have been some limits on her contol, given she is an AI, such as her not being able to evacuate the ship to vacuum (which was the plot device used to eliminate the collectors).

Yeah, but I'd still think giving Edi full control would actually mean GIVE EDI FULL CONTROL. Besides, this is cerberus we are talking about.

They are not just robots. They are androids, originally programmed to work in and around Quarians (hence the bipedal forms, etc). They could have organic style death sequences to enterain those they were working around, or even put them in themselves in an effort to be more 'organic.'

Yeah, but it's still left there without an explanation and seems highly unlikely. So it is still a plot hole. Well, more like a design hole but still.

Modifié par madman0311, 16 janvier 2011 - 06:50 .

[Praetor Knight]

Moiaussi wrote...

The only real plot holes regarding thermal clips is why they aren't all reusable and why the supply isn't communal between weapons.

Also why do we keep leaving the Normandy without a full complement of heavy weapons ammo and biogel.

Regarding a communal supply, the Heat Sinks are stored inside the guns themselves, so what could be communal is extra thermal clips carried on the Armor. The Off-hand Ammo Armor piece is a step in that direct, but I would that to be an accessory that can be used on other Arm Armor pieces for example.

Gameplay wise, the guns would refill automatically after a fight.

I agree that Shep and Co. should go with a full complement of at least medigel, but maybe, lore-wise, there is an issue for Cerberus (a private organization) to get a supply from the Sirta Foundation, where the Alliance can get medigel in abundance.

Heavy Weapons would be icing on the cake (I guess the issue with ME2 is how the Cain works, one or two "I win" shots every time you go ashore)

[Il Divo]

Moiaussi wrote...

You have to admit, spending those kinds of resources ressurrecting someone when you cannot be sure in advance how well it would work does seem a little crazy.

Crazy, certainly. But it worked. As we are told, state of the art technology. Cerberus is portrayed as that kind of shadow organization with access to technology/resources which puts all other groups to shame. 

The classic ME1 example would be Saren's one shot assassination of Nihilus. Cut scenes should conform to game mechanics.

Kinetic barriers are not just a gameplay mechanic, but an accepted aspect of the Mass Effect universe. Characters reference them, they are listed in the codex, etc. Nihlus realistically should have kinetic barriers which makes the one shot assassination non-sensical. Shepard in Bringing Down the Sky is shot and we see that he has kinetic barriers. Their existence is not a plot hole, but rather how Saren was able to one shot Nihlus is the real question. 
 

Which doesn't explain it being humanoid. Reproduction makes sense. The methods do not.

The cuttlefish Reaper design doesn't make sense either and is not conductive towards a space environment. Edi theorizes that every Reaper to some degree resembles the race from which it is assembled. I think this is an example of needing to wait until Mass Effect 3 for the full picture.

And yet the VS, who never ran and hid before this time conveniently does so until the battle is over, not even coming in to help near the end and contrary to the opening scene of Horizon suggesting they were one of the first to go down.

Well, she is supposed to be paralyzed the entire encounter. But I did say that it was a plot hole that Ashley/Kaidan is magically okay at the end.

That is a major plot hole though. If things escape notice that easily, why didn't the last Protheans (or some other prior race) simply pull a Quarian manuever and just keep running?

Not to mention we learned about that hull in ME1, and the fact that this wasn't just some colony the reapers didn't clean up, but the husk of one of their own, which appearantly wasn't even dead yet. They had to have some idea where to search at least.

Not necessarily. It's like arguing that Sovereign should have had some idea of where the Mu Relay had landed. We don't know the circumstances behind Klendagon and the giant Reaper.

We know the Normandy can disengage nigh instantly, yet instead in the opening scene, Joker not only lets the Collector vessel intercept the Normany, but then does 'evasive maneuvers' rather than simply going faster and disengaging. He doesn't even try turning. It is the classic "OMG a vehicle is chasing me! I'd better run down the centre of the road to drag out the chase!"

The Normandy was in stealth before the attack. Joker was caught completely off guard, at which point desperation takes hold and the ship is hit by the Collectors. What sort of disengagement would you suggest as having been appropriate?

Clarke's third law may imply it is merely sufficiently advanced technology, but said law does not say it will be entertaining to audiences or a coherrent part of any given plot.

But entertainment factor cannot be used into what is a 'plot hole' so it has no place here. I can point to Indoctrination which is impossible and say "Hey, I wasn't entertained" that doesn't suddenly become a hole in the story. The point of Clarke's third law is that what we qualify as magic never needs to be explained scientifically. Ex: In Dragon Age, there is a logic to how a fireball works, but it's not necessary for the story. We don't know how indoctrination works, how melting humans down works, husks, Mass Relays, etc. These all fall under 'Reaper technology'. You can point to an element and say 'I did not enjoy this' or 'Hey, this wasn't handled well', but not 'this is impossible'. Everything that Reaper technology does is impossible.  

[brgillespie]

A plothole is an inconsistency in the storyline that is essential to the story's outcome. I'm seeing a lot of "plotholes" that aren't really fitting that definition.

Modifié par brgillespie, 17 janvier 2011 - 02:50 .

[Interactive Civilian]

madman0311 wrote...

The Omega 4 relay battle. Seriously. Barel rolls? <_<

You know that Joker spends all of his free time in the cockpit playing StarFox, right?

(yeah, "aerobatic" dogfight maneuvers in space bother me, too)

Il Divo wrote...

Kinetic barriers are not just a gameplay mechanic, but an accepted
aspect of the Mass Effect universe. Characters reference them, they are
listed in the codex, etc. Nihlus realistically should have kinetic
barriers which makes the one shot assassination non-sensical. Shepard in
Bringing Down the Sky is shot and we see that he has kinetic barriers.
Their existence is not a plot hole, but rather how Saren was able to one
shot Nihlus is the real question.

Actually, the books cover this very well. If you fire from point blank range, which is to say in this case, within the boundary of the kinetic barrier, then it can't protect you. When Saren shot Nihlus, he did it from a close enough range that the barriers could not protect him. You don't have to hold the gun directly on the skin; just within the boundary of the barrier.

Retconning? Maybe, but it is a reasonable explanation.

[88mphSlayer]

brgillespie wrote...

A plothole is an inconsistency in the storyline that is essential to the story's outcome. I'm seeing a lot of "plotholes" that aren't really fitting that definition.

eh

the alliance won't go into the terminus systems because they're afraid to start a war, but they will send an alliance representative to setup massive missile turrets

the council claims the geth built sovereign but Saren brainwashed them into believing the Geth ship they built was an ancient god, one of thousands

reapers comb the galaxy for centuries destroying prothean civilizations but can't be bothered to clean up a dead reaper for 37 million years over 740 extinction cycles?

sheperd can't convince the council the reapers are real, thus him needing to stay with Cerberus, while with Cerberus he finds a 37 million year old reaper and makes no effort to collect evidence

despite being suspicious of how the turians disabled a collector ship, Sheperd takes no precautions while boarding it with only 2 squadmates

Kaiden/Ashley aren't abducted despite being among the first frozen by seeker swarms - on top of being only a few dozen yards from the colonist who ends up melting at the end of the game (who on Horizon was surrounded by collectors)

Mordin gets a mysterious shipment of a seeker swarm bug, from somewhere...

if the collectors existed since the prothean extinction, why do they only have 1 base and only 1 ship?

this is a retcon but why wouldn't Sovereign use the collectors in Mass Effect 1?

why do Mordin and Legion think reaper tech will doom us when they're the only reason the suicide mission succeeded?

if the collectors abducting the crew is dependent on all squadmates leaving the ship, why do all squadmates leave the ship all at once?

how are there modern robots and modern guns on Jacob's loyalty mission?

[madman0311]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Actually, the books cover this very well. If you fire from point blank range, which is to say in this case, within the boundary of the kinetic barrier, then it can't protect you. When Saren shot Nihlus, he did it from a close enough range that the barriers could not protect him. You don't have to hold the gun directly on the skin; just within the boundary of the barrier.

What about when Kolyat shoots the krogan merc bodyguards? That was a reasonable distance and the kinetic barriers were completely ignored.

Modifié par madman0311, 17 janvier 2011 - 05:08 .

[Praetor Knight]

madman0311 wrote...

What about when Kolyat shoots the krogan merc bodyguards? That was a reasonable distance and the kinetic barriers were completely ignored.

Blood Pack grunts tend to not use Kinetic Barriers.

The question is how good of a shot is Kolyat to be able to wound the Krogan without putting him into a Blood Rage?



Also, here's the wiki on the Warriors

[Interactive Civilian]

^^^ Exactly. Blood Pack usually only wear armor without barriers, at least most of the times you run into them. So, the only "plot-hole" there, as well as when/if you take out the Blood Pack mercs looking for Patriarch, is that you have armor piercing rounds during cut-scenes that can one-shot a Krogan, but you don't have them during the game.



Not a big hole, imho. The game wouldn't be much of a challenge if it only took one shot to kill anything without a kinetic barrier (or if shot from within the range of it's kinetic barrier), so gameplay dictates more than one shot. However, it is far more realistic for just about anything to die when getting shot in the face with a big gun, so cut-scenes follow the cinematic route.

[Moiaussi]

Il Divo wrote...

Crazy, certainly. But it worked. As we are told, state of the art technology. Cerberus is portrayed as that kind of shadow organization with access to technology/resources which puts all other groups to shame.

What in ME2 couldn't have been done without Shepard? He couldn't even get people to pay full attention to the main mission without having held their hands through all their personal problems. Good thing it wasn't a real emergency and there was time for all that.....

Kinetic barriers are not just a gameplay mechanic, but an accepted aspect of the Mass Effect universe. Characters reference them, they are listed in the codex, etc. Nihlus realistically should have kinetic barriers which makes the one shot assassination non-sensical. Shepard in Bringing Down the Sky is shot and we see that he has kinetic barriers. Their existence is not a plot hole, but rather how Saren was able to one shot Nihlus is the real question. 

You are agreeing with me. I take it you misunderstood me?
 

The cuttlefish Reaper design doesn't make sense either and is not conductive towards a space environment. Edi theorizes that every Reaper to some degree resembles the race from which it is assembled. I think this is an example of needing to wait until Mass Effect 3 for the full picture.

What about a cuttlefish design doesn't make sense? It is a lot more streamlined and structurally sound than a humanoid form. What EDI theorizes has nothing to do with whether it makes sense. If EDI had said 'The reaper plan is to sell fashion to a race of giant humanoids and this way it doubles as a show model' would you still be using 'EDI said this' as a defence?

Well, she is supposed to be paralyzed the entire encounter. But I did say that it was a plot hole that Ashley/Kaidan is magically okay at the end.

Actually one of the first to go down. We are also supposed to believe that a cruiser sized hull was expected to carry the hundreds of thousands of Horizon inhabitants. Even then, they don't comment on how big the ship is until they get inside, as if the Normandy doesn't already have its dimensions.

Not necessarily. It's like arguing that Sovereign should have had some idea of where the Mu Relay had landed. We don't know the circumstances behind Klendagon and the giant Reaper.

Even if Sovereign didn't know about these things now, the Reapers from that war would presumably have had data. We don't know that Sovereign didn't know the location of the Mu Relay. Just because Shepard had to figure it out doesn't mean Saren had the same timeline. Saren had an armed invasion to stage, and preparations might have meant the time difference between Saren finding Illos and Shepard doing so... especially when you consider Saren was trying to find ways to resist Sovereign's indoctrination, hedging his bets. Shep wanted to find Ilos quickly, but Saren wanted more time to ensure his own survival.

The Normandy was in stealth before the attack. Joker was caught completely off guard, at which point desperation takes hold and the ship is hit by the Collectors. What sort of disengagement would you suggest as having been appropriate?

Had this discussion with someone else here. Re-watch the opening. The timeline is as follows:

1) The Normandy spots the Collector vessel on long range sensors.
2) The Collector vessel changes to an intercept course. At this point the Normandy knows they have been spotted.
3) The scene cuts to the interior of the Normandy. Some time passes. This is when the Normandy should have at least been accelerating and maintaining distance.
4) The scene cuts back to external. The Collector vessel is now in weapons range and Joker is attempting 'evasive maneuvers.'
5) We know the result..... the Normandy goes down due to a Cruiser on its six.

There was no reason to let the Collector ship close. Joker knew it was there. The Normandy is a fast ship, and capable of quick disengagement if need be. The Codex even mentions how easy it is for ships to disengage and how ships only fight when they want to.

'Ace pilot' Joker seemed unaware of the concept that you don't let larger armed vessels close with you like that unless you know they are friendly. He wasn't caught unaware.

Clarke's third law may imply it is merely sufficiently advanced technology, but said law does not say it will be entertaining to audiences or a coherrent part of any given plot.

But entertainment factor cannot be used into what is a 'plot hole' so it has no place here. I can point to Indoctrination which is impossible and say "Hey, I wasn't entertained" that doesn't suddenly become a hole in the story. The point of Clarke's third law is that what we qualify as magic never needs to be explained scientifically. Ex: In Dragon Age, there is a logic to how a fireball works, but it's not necessary for the story. We don't know how indoctrination works, how melting humans down works, husks, Mass Relays, etc. These all fall under 'Reaper technology'. You can point to an element and say 'I did not enjoy this' or 'Hey, this wasn't handled well', but not 'this is impossible'. Everything that Reaper technology does is impossible.  

But you realize that what you are arguing is that there is no such thing as a plot hole, even in conventional fiction, since the writer could always claim 'sufficiently advanced technology.' The story doesn't need to be even remotely coherrent to invoke that explaination either.

Good science fiction doesn't use clarke's law as a crutch. Said law is used for convenience to make the story flow better, such as transporters in star trek, so they don't have to find landing places or work shuttles into sets unless it is part of the plot. When such devices are used as core parts of a plot, the law is not invoked and the tech is used in a manner consistant with its existance in the rest of the writing.

[Moiaussi]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Actually, the books cover this very well. If you fire from point blank range, which is to say in this case, within the boundary of the kinetic barrier, then it can't protect you. When Saren shot Nihlus, he did it from a close enough range that the barriers could not protect him. You don't have to hold the gun directly on the skin; just within the boundary of the barrier.

Retconning? Maybe, but it is a reasonable explanation.

Except you fire at point blank in game and it still doesn't work that way. Not to mention if the barriers are that wide, how in blazes does anyone ever pick anything up? Or even run?

The explaination has more holes than the original plot hole...

[Ragnarok521]

I'm just saying this off the top of my head, but I think that objects have to be going at a high enough velocity for the barriers to take effect.

[Praetor Knight]

[quote]88mphSlayer wrote...

the alliance won't go into the terminus systems because they're afraid to start a war, but they will send an alliance representative to setup massive missile turrets[/quote]

The Turrets are defensive in nature, a Fleet presence can be seen as capable of attacking Pirates or who knows what group lurking in the Terminus.


[quote]the council claims the geth built sovereign but Saren brainwashed them into believing the Geth ship they built was an ancient god, one of thousands[/quote]

I was a bit confused by this one who did Saren brainwash?


[quote]reapers comb the galaxy for centuries destroying prothean civilizations but can't be bothered to clean up a dead reaper for 37 million years over 740 extinction cycles?[/quote]

The Reapers did not know about Ilos, so maybe it was not known to the other reapers what happened to the derelict Reaper, or that it was not worth salvaging from where it came to rest, IMHO.


[quote]sheperd can't convince the council the reapers are real, thus him needing to stay with Cerberus, while with Cerberus he finds a 37 million year old reaper and makes no effort to collect evidence[/quote]

I thought that the mission went from bad to worse, but I agree there should be some sort of photographic evidence taken, but the Council could easily try to dismiss any evidence as well. (I almost see it as a no-win situation for Shep).


[quote]despite being suspicious of how the turians disabled a collector ship, Sheperd takes no precautions while boarding it with only 2 squadmates[/quote]

I guess Shep's SOP was to get in and out asap, so bringing a larger group would slow them down, in case the Cruiser was powered back up and attacks the Normandy.

But I agree that at least a second squad lead by Miranda or Garrus could have worked for this part, were you only hear them over the radio comm and only really seem them at the beginning and ending cut scenes.


[quote]Kaiden/Ashley aren't abducted despite being among the first frozen by seeker swarms - on top of being only a few dozen yards from the colonist who ends up melting at the end of the game (who on Horizon was surrounded by collectors)[/quote]

I've always assumed that the VS was one of the first frozen at the edge of the colony and the Collectors fortunately are super methodical and landed on the opposite side of the colony.

There was a lotta luck with this one.


[quote]Mordin gets a mysterious shipment of a seeker swarm bug, from somewhere...[/quote]

I guessed that the specimens were collected from Freedom's Progress or from another colony that was unnamed and abducted prior to Freedom's Progress, but that is mostly speculation.


[quote]if the collectors existed since the prothean extinction, why do they only have 1 base and only 1 ship?[/quote]

It's not clear what other resources the Collectors may or may not have but I assumed that Harby is a control freak and wanted to stay in full control of its collectors,

plus as Mordin explained in one of his dialogues too much of them was replaced with Tech, so the Collectors are individually no smarter that a LOKI Mech, just better armed.


[quote]this is a retcon but why wouldn't Sovereign use the collectors in Mass Effect 1?[/quote]

I think Sovereign wanted to keep an element of surprise for some unknown reason. I'm looking forward to ME3 to understand this part also.


[quote]why do Mordin and Legion think reaper tech will doom us when they're the only reason the suicide mission succeeded?[/quote]

The Reaper IFF was broadcasting their location when installed and EDI was unable to figure it out until it was too late, so who knows what other Reaper Tech is capable of.


[quote]if the collectors abducting the crew is dependent on all squadmates leaving the ship, why do all squadmates leave the ship all at once?[/quote]

Well the Normandy was dead in the water so to speak, but I would have preferred to have had the entire squad leave the ship on maybe Horizon, or the Collector Ship. I agree that this could have been done differently.


[quote]how are there modern robots and modern guns on Jacob's loyalty mission?[/quote]

Maybe the YMIR, LOKI and FENRIS Mechs are older that what Shep experienced in ME and were relics before 2183, it's not clearly stated in game how old the Mechs really are IMHO, and they have an extremely limited virtual intelligence. Here's the Codex Entry: http://masseffect.wi...#Security_Mechs

It's possible that because of the dangers of exploring new systems they would be standard on Survey Vessels and on colonies like Illium, that may lack enough manpower for security.

And that they became necessary on the Citadel and other areas of Citadel space from a lack of trained C-Sec personnel, so I would not be surprised if they were older models, older than the flying drones at least.



Edit: Gah the post formatting!

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:45 .

[Il Divo]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

What in ME2 couldn't have been done without Shepard? He couldn't even get people to pay full attention to the main mission without having held their hands through all their personal problems. Good thing it wasn't a real emergency and there was time for all that..... [/quote]

Mass Effect 2 wouldn't have happened without Shepard. Period. Shepard killing Sovereign is what triggers the Reapers' obsession with humans/seeking Shepard's body. Is ability/experience not to justify a character's role in a plot? 

[quote]
You are agreeing with me. I take it you misunderstood me? [/quote]

No, I understood, but  I just don't see the big fuss on this point, even with Sovereign/Nihlus on Virmire. Plot hole? Technically, yes, but I'm willing to allow it for purposes of the narrative. 
 

[quote]
What about a cuttlefish design doesn't make sense? It is a lot more streamlined and structurally sound than a humanoid form. What EDI theorizes has nothing to do with whether it makes sense. If EDI had said 'The reaper plan is to sell fashion to a race of giant humanoids and this way it doubles as a show model' would you still be using 'EDI said this' as a defence? [/quote]

Cuttlefish design: not adequate for a space environment. The point is that this was an aesthetic choice from the start. Does it seem more plausible than a human reaper? Perhaps, but when designing a ship, no one would say 'let's make it look like a giant fish'. It's not a sound design.

[quote]
Actually one of the first to go down. We are also supposed to believe that a cruiser sized hull was expected to carry the hundreds of thousands of Horizon inhabitants. Even then, they don't comment on how big the ship is until they get inside, as if the Normandy doesn't already have its dimensions. [/quote]

And we are shown that they have successfully done it before, and had room enough to potentially assault Earth.

[quote]
Even if Sovereign didn't know about these things now, the Reapers from that war would presumably have had data. We don't know that Sovereign didn't know the location of the Mu Relay. Just because Shepard had to figure it out doesn't mean Saren had the same timeline. Saren had an armed invasion to stage, and preparations might have meant the time difference between Saren finding Illos and Shepard doing so... especially when you consider Saren was trying to find ways to resist Sovereign's indoctrination, hedging his bets. Shep wanted to find Ilos quickly, but Saren wanted more time to ensure his own survival. [/quote]

...the very purpose of Saren's operation of Noveria was so that Benezia could find the location of the Mu Relay for Saren. I doubt Sovereign would hold back that critical piece of information. The point of Saren's timeline is, why hold back? The longer you wait, the more time Sovereign has for indoctrination. Once he had every piece of the puzzle, what exactly was Saren waiting for, besides the Protagonist having time to catch up?


[quote]The Normandy was in stealth before the attack. Joker was caught completely off guard, at which point desperation takes hold and the ship is hit by the Collectors. What sort of disengagement would you suggest as having been appropriate? [/quote][quote]

Had this discussion with someone else here. Re-watch the opening. The timeline is as follows:

1) The Normandy spots the Collector vessel on long range sensors.
2) The Collector vessel changes to an intercept course. At this point the Normandy knows they have been spotted.
3) The scene cuts to the interior of the Normandy. Some time passes. This is when the Normandy should have at least been accelerating and maintaining distance.
4) The scene cuts back to external. The Collector vessel is now in weapons range and Joker is attempting 'evasive maneuvers.'
5) We know the result..... the Normandy goes down due to a Cruiser on its six.

There was no reason to let the Collector ship close. Joker knew it was there. The Normandy is a fast ship, and capable of quick disengagement if need be. The Codex even mentions how easy it is for ships to disengage and how ships only fight when they want to.

'Ace pilot' Joker seemed unaware of the concept that you don't let larger armed vessels close with you like that unless you know they are friendly. He wasn't caught unaware. [/quote

http://masseffect.wi...ki/SSV_Normandy


'Ace Pilot Joker' also had a grand total of 8 seconds (at most) to fully become aware of the situation, that the ship was locked onto them. Also read the entry on the SSV Normandy. You cannot enter FTL while stealth systems are engaged, and Pressly tells us that they were active. Add on top of this that the Normandy's purpose was to find out where the ships were heading/deal with the threat and it's easy to see why Joker may have had trouble.  


[quote]
But you realize that what you are arguing is that there is no such thing as a plot hole, even in conventional fiction, since the writer could always claim 'sufficiently advanced technology.' The story doesn't need to be even remotely coherrent to invoke that explaination either. [/quote]

I don't think you understand how Clarke's Third Law works or its intended purpose. You cannot use Clarke's Law to justify any plot hole. You can only use it to justify anything which revolves around scientific advancement. If someone says "Hey, the Council doesn't believe Shepard in Mass Effect 2, that's a plot hole!", I can't point to Clarke's Third Law and say advanced technology = magic. Now, if we're operating in a setting which takes place a million years after our current time where teleportation exists and someone says "Teleportation is not possible. Plot hole!", then I can point to Clarke's Third Law and say "this is a million years later, it's basically magic".

[quote]
Good science fiction doesn't use clarke's law as a crutch. Said law is used for convenience to make the story flow better, such as transporters in star trek, so they don't have to find landing places or work shuttles into sets unless it is part of the plot. When such devices are used as core parts of a plot, the law is not invoked and the tech is used in a manner consistant with its existance in the rest of the writing. [/quote]

I want to focus on this in particular. What about 'Reaper technology' (which is the magic of Mass Effect) is consistent that we can point to? There is nothing consistent with regards to Indoctrination, Husks, etc, all we know about these things is that they rely on Reaper tech.

Let me use Dragon Age, which features magic, as an example. There is no explanation given for anything Mages can do, whether it's shooting fireballs or summoning demons. But the narrative tells us that there is an explanation behind it. Yet, for some reason, teleportation and raising the dead are treated as impossible. But you don't need to know how magic works for this to work. The human reaper fills much the same capacity. You can't point to Reapers melting down humans and say "This is impossible". We know it's impossible, so is every other aspect of Reaper tech on which Mass Effect relies. However, we can say it's stupid/lame/any other negative comment.

[swenson]

Some random ones to comment on...

[quote]madman0311 wrote...

-Holy s**t Joker can walk? How?[/quote]

He could always walk. Nothing in the first game said he couldn't. In ME2 at least, it specifically mentions that he has leg braces. It's possible to be (mostly) crippled) and still capable of walking--see, for example, many people with cerebral palsy.

[quote]
-Get facial regenerating med bay. Don't tell Garrus.[/quote]

I know, right?? This one annoys me to no end...

Maybe it's the kind of facial damage? Like Shepard still has nerve endings so the skin can be regenerated, but Garrus' injuries are too severe to heal completely?

[quote]-Antagonist with unclear motives (yes, giant terminator. I know. But why?)[/quote]

That's kinda the point, though. Reapers cannot be understood. Even the Protheans didn't fully understand why. It's clear they use some species as workers (the keepers, the Collectors) and somehow use some species to build new Reapers (the human Reaper) and it's theorized they're looking for genetic diversity (hence why they're focusing on humans). But it's never been explained what their motivations are, so it's impossible to tell if their motives changed between the two games.

[quote]-Collectors come to horizon looking for Shepard or people connected to him. But hey, don't take Kaidan/Ashley[/quote]

Couple of theories here: first, not everyone on Horizon was taken. You can see a bunch of them frozen randomly around. So maybe Shepard got there before they found Kaidan/Ashley.

Alternately, they weren't trying to take Kaidan/Ashley, they had a different motive.

[quote]-Wait, wasn't she frozen in the first place? What is she doing walking around?[/quote]

Again, lots of people survived on Horizon (about 2/3 of the colony), so the paralysis must wear off somehow. I guess it happened to wear off during the final Praetorian fight?

-The illusive man suddenly calls in all "oh hey dude, found dead reaper. Check it out", don't show to council, the alliance, just leave it around. Also, it wasn't found for 37 million years and the reapers never though of removing it since, well... they usually cover up all evidence that they exist and... yeah.

[quote]-Why no seeker swarms on the Normandy?[/quote]

Could be plenty of reasons. Doors, for example, of which there are many on the Normandy. To get to every part of the ship, the Collectors would have to board anyway and open all the doors before the seeker swarms could get everyone. So if they're already there before everyone's paralyzed, why even bother with the swarms? Alternately, it was unnecessary. There's, what, twenty-something crewmembers? There's no need for seeker swarms.

[quote-Spaceship stunts (that s**t is just brain melting stupid. Seriously)[/quote]

Rule of Cool excuses this one for me.

[quote]-Melting creatures into goo creates reapers.[/quote]

So you're an expert in Reaper biology now? That's not a plothole, that's something we don't understand. There's a difference between something that doesn't make any sense at all and something that doesn't make sense because we don't understand everything.

(that doesn't make it any less stupid, mind you. Stupid things aren't plotholes either, though.)

[quote]-Vacuum only affects breathing. It's totally fine to be in outer space with a spandex and a moutpiece.[/quote]

Yeah... that annoyed me too. I guess it's "artistic license", but still annoying. They'd better fix it in ME3.

*Technically* you're fine if you're in a vacuum for only a short period of time (like a few seconds). But still.

(wait, did you mean Miranda/Jack on, for example, the Collector Ship? That could arguably be explained by a ME field keeping in some air, but then why do they have helmets? yeah, that one is dumb)

[Skurrow]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Mordin gets a mysterious shipment of a seeker swarm bug, from somewhere...

I've never really understood the problem with this.

We know the bugs are actually machines and that Veetor collected data about them on his omni tool.  Given Mordin's expertise, it seems reasonable that he could build one of his own.

[Moiaussi]

Il Divo wrote...

Mass Effect 2 wouldn't have happened without Shepard. Period. Shepard killing Sovereign is what triggers the Reapers' obsession with humans/seeking Shepard's body. Is ability/experience not to justify a character's role in a plot?

Not when that means bringing them back from the dead and when there is no indication of anything that even remotely required his abilities.  

Cuttlefish design: not adequate for a space environment. The point is that this was an aesthetic choice from the start. Does it seem more plausible than a human reaper? Perhaps, but when designing a ship, no one would say 'let's make it look like a giant fish'. It's not a sound design.

Ok, lets try this again. What about a cuttlefish is not adequate for a space environment? You need to explain that point, not simply repeat it as a mantra. Fish and celphapods (such as cuttlefish) are designed for linear movement through a liquid medium. Spaceships are designed for linear movement through a near vacuum medium, but occasionally enter gasious or liquid mediums, depending on design.

Humanoids are designed as all terrain vehicles, gain their propulsion from traction with a solid surface and are designed for uneven surfaces. They are not expecially well designed or streamlined for movement in vacuum, gas or liquid environments.

So.... what part of a cuttlefish design doesn't make sense to you?

And we are shown that they have successfully done it before, and had room enough to potentially assault Earth.

We are not shown any such thing. We are simply told that and expected to believe it, despite the fact we are also 'shown' a cruiser hull that is not big enough compared to the Normandy to justify what they are telling us about its interior capacity.

...the very purpose of Saren's operation of Noveria was so that Benezia could find the location of the Mu Relay for Saren. I doubt Sovereign would hold back that critical piece of information. The point of Saren's timeline is, why hold back? The longer you wait, the more time Sovereign has for indoctrination. Once he had every piece of the puzzle, what exactly was Saren waiting for, besides the Protagonist having time to catch up?

Right til the end, though, Saren was rationalizing that Sovereign was being careful not to indoctrinate him too much, to keep him useful. If Saren gives everything Sovereign wants before being ready, he still has enough capacity to understand the probability that he is toast and has lost. It is a balancing act.

You are also dismissing the concept that Sovereign not knowing the location of the relay could simply be another plot hole.

'Ace Pilot Joker' also had a grand total of 8 seconds (at most) to fully become aware of the situation, that the ship was locked onto them. Also read the entry on the SSV Normandy. You cannot enter FTL while stealth systems are engaged, and Pressly tells us that they were active. Add on top of this that the Normandy's purpose was to find out where the ships were heading/deal with the threat and it's easy to see why Joker may have had trouble.

Re-watch your links. Pay attention to how Joker handles the situation. He is calm and aware and shows no signs of not being in control. Turning off the stealth systems is a simple flip of a switch (besides, I am pretty sure that was not being able to use stealth in FTL, not the other way around. FTL in ME is simply accelerating past light speed. Stealth stops working because of the blue shift effect). One second. It is another second to increase speed.

And they didn't have to actually disengage. All they had to do is accelerate to near light speed, just shy of FTL velocity... enough to maintain distance without going FTL. To close, the Collector vessel would have had to go FTL (meaning losing tracking) and the Normandy would have been able to change course and increase the distance further.

Finding/dealing with enemy ships does not include letting larger vessels close with your six.

I don't think you understand how Clarke's Third Law works or its intended purpose. You cannot use Clarke's Law to justify any plot hole. You can only use it to justify anything which revolves around scientific advancement. If someone says "Hey, the Council doesn't believe Shepard in Mass Effect 2, that's a plot hole!", I can't point to Clarke's Third Law and say advanced technology = magic. Now, if we're operating in a setting which takes place a million years after our current time where teleportation exists and someone says "Teleportation is not possible. Plot hole!", then I can point to Clarke's Third Law and say "this is a million years later, it's basically magic".

You are right, making a new reaper out of human slushies isn't a plot hole, merely hack writing.

I want to focus on this in particular. What about 'Reaper technology' (which is the magic of Mass Effect) is consistent that we can point to? There is nothing consistent with regards to Indoctrination, Husks, etc, all we know about these things is that they rely on Reaper tech.

Well besides the collectors being there and their 'cruiser' being defeatable by a non upgraded Normandy? How about the whole slushies thing? If nothing else it is inconsistant with the spikes used in ME1. At the very least it seems a very strange and inefficient method in comparason.