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[Halo Quea]

Moiaussi wrote...

The only real plot holes regarding thermal clips is why they aren't all reusable and why the supply isn't communal between weapons.

That and the fact that the people on Aeia (Jacob's mission) are using them.  The crew of the Hugo Gernsback should have had absolutely  NO access to them whatsoever.

[Vaenier]

Skurrow wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

Mordin gets a mysterious shipment of a seeker swarm bug, from somewhere...

I've never really understood the problem with this.

We know the bugs are actually machines and that Veetor collected data about them on his omni tool.  Given Mordin's expertise, it seems reasonable that he could build one of his own.

You do understand that means Cerberus has the ability to build this overpowered weapon now? They can produce swarms of thse bugs capable of taking out entire armies. If its only a machine, they can reprogram them, make them not attack Cerberus personal, make the counter measures obsolete. You are ****ed if you try to take out tim now.

[swenson]

We are not shown any such thing. We are simply told that and expected to believe it, despite the fact we are also 'shown' a cruiser hull that is not big enough compared to the Normandy to justify what they are telling us about its interior capacity.

Are you referring to the Collector ship on Horizon and so on? What do you mean, it's not big enough for thousands of people, that ship is HUGE!



It took me forever to find a picture with both the Normandy and the Collector ship in it, for some reason, but here's a decent one off the wiki:







The Normandy's in the foreground in that picture, so there's some foreshortening, and it's in space so it's hard to see the size of everything, but... it is several times the size of the Normandy. The huge open space inside probably takes up almost the entire space of the ship. Now that I look at the picture, it still does seem too big inside... but it's not *that* ridiculous.

[Praetor Knight]

Halo Quea wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The only real plot holes regarding thermal clips is why they aren't all reusable and why the supply isn't communal between weapons.

That and the fact that the people on Aeia (Jacob's mission) are using them.  The crew of the Hugo Gernsback should have had absolutely  NO access to them whatsoever.

The fact that they are not communal, but still universal, is because they are stored inside the weapons themselves and each weapon can be topped off by one Thermal Clip pickup, I don't mind not having a communal pool now that I figured that out recently myself.

Although, there should be Thermal Clips carried on the Armor that can then be used to refill the disposable Heat Sinks in the weapons after a fight, for ME3 at least.

Also, it is not clear if Thermal Clips are reusable or not, but I would prefer to refill Thermal Clips with more Heat Sink material after a fight anyway to ensure quality and consistency from items converted into omnigel.

Jacob's LM has gameplay issues with Thermal Clips certainly, but it is also possible that for gameplay purposes, the Clips are found pre-made like in other areas of the game, from the items found in that level, so that process of conversion into useable Thermal Clips is left un-animated and assumed as they are in other levels that seem unlikely to have so many lying around, and then those Thermal Clips that respawn over time.

I base my theories about how Thermal Clips work in ME2 on the fact that in ME, items were converted into omnigel after a battle or found waiting in your inventory, and that omnigel can then be used to make anything else at practically a moment's notice, according to the lore anyway.

So, meh.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 janvier 2011 - 07:26 .

[Moiaussi]

swenson wrote...

Are you referring to the Collector ship on Horizon and so on? What do you mean, it's not big enough for thousands of people, that ship is HUGE!

We aren't talking thousands of people. We are talking hundreds of thousands on Horizon alone. It was described as being able to hold more than the entire population of the terminus systems, which means millions.

The conclusion was that it must have been designed to go after Earth. That means billions.

It is a big ship, but there is no way it is anywhere near that big.

[Moiaussi]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The fact that they are not communal, but still universal, is because they are stored inside the weapons themselves and each weapon can be topped off by one Thermal Clip pickup, I don't mind not having a communal pool now that I figured that out recently myself.

Although, there should be Thermal Clips carried on the Armor that can then be used to refill the disposable Heat Sinks in the weapons after a fight, for ME3 at least.

Also, it is not clear if Thermal Clips are reusable or not, but I would prefer to refill Thermal Clips with more Heat Sink material after a fight anyway to ensure quality and consistency from items converted into omnigel.

Jacob's LM has gameplay issues with Thermal Clips certainly, but it is also possible that for gameplay purposes, the Clips are found pre-made like in other areas of the game, from the items found in that level, so that process of conversion into useable Thermal Clips is left un-animated and assumed as they are in other levels that seem unlikely to have so many lying around, and then those Thermal Clips that respawn over time.

I base my theories about how Thermal Clips work in ME2 on the fact that in ME, items were converted into omnigel after a battle or found waiting in your inventory, and that omnigel can then be used to make anything else at practically a moment's notice, according to the lore anyway.

So, meh.

The bit about Jacob's mission is that they were on that world for more than 2 years, so they shouldn't have had any thermal clips. They hadn't been invented yet when they crashed.

And stored inside makes no sense at all for any form of heat sink.

[swenson]

...true, I forgot about how it's supposed to be able to hold millions of people, not just thousands.



If pretty much the whole thing was dedicated to just storing people (which, because they're packed in pods in stasis, wouldn't require as much space or supplies/equipment as people who were awake, walking around, and consuming food/oxygen), then I can accept hundreds of thousands, mayyybe. But yeah, billions? That does seem to push the limits of acceptable suspension of disbelief.



Then again, I'm not sure it's ever shown up close with the Normandy (or something else we can estimate the size of) right next to it. Even in the pic I posted, I'm pretty sure the two are pretty far apart. So maybe it is bigger than we think?



Alternately, it's a TARDIS.

[Mr. Man]

The only plot-hole I can think of was Jacob's loyalty mission when they used thermal clips. That was more of a poorly implemented gameplay mechanic than anything.

[Moiaussi]

swenson wrote...

Then again, I'm not sure it's ever shown up close with the Normandy (or something else we can estimate the size of) right next to it. Even in the pic I posted, I'm pretty sure the two are pretty far apart. So maybe it is bigger than we think?

That pic was with the Normandy ready to evac Shepard fast. It was effectively docked, so we do get a meaningful sense of scale.

Alternately, it's a TARDIS.

A possible explaination, but you would think someone would have thought that worth mentioning? That is pretty important tech!

[Skurrow]

Vaenier wrote...

Skurrow wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

Mordin gets a mysterious shipment of a seeker swarm bug, from somewhere...

I've never really understood the problem with this.

We know the bugs are actually machines and that Veetor collected data about them on his omni tool.  Given Mordin's expertise, it seems reasonable that he could build one of his own.

You do understand that means Cerberus has the ability to build this overpowered weapon now? They can produce swarms of thse bugs capable of taking out entire armies. If its only a machine, they can reprogram them, make them not attack Cerberus personal, make the counter measures obsolete. You are ****ed if you try to take out tim now.

Yeah that's not good, but the point stands that I don't see it as a plot hole.  The bug doesnt just pop into existence.

Besides the point in recruiting Mordin was that he was the only one who could put 2 and 2 together to figure this stuff out.  He already had some prior knowledge of the Collectors and disabled all the surveillance devices Cerberus placed in the lab.  So its plausible he kept the creation of the bug to himself, or that he repaired a broken one the team found (though that is a leap of faith as such a find was never mentioned that I can remember).  So no, Cerberus don't necessarily know how to make the bugs.  At least not yet.  I suspect Veetor's data may eventually lead them to it.

[Vaenier]

Skurrow wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Skurrow wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

Mordin gets a mysterious shipment of a seeker swarm bug, from somewhere...

I've never really understood the problem with this.

We know the bugs are actually machines and that Veetor collected data about them on his omni tool.  Given Mordin's expertise, it seems reasonable that he could build one of his own.

You do understand that means Cerberus has the ability to build this overpowered weapon now? They can produce swarms of thse bugs capable of taking out entire armies. If its only a machine, they can reprogram them, make them not attack Cerberus personal, make the counter measures obsolete. You are ****ed if you try to take out tim now.

Yeah that's not good, but the point stands that I don't see it as a plot hole.  The bug doesnt just pop into existence.

Besides the point in recruiting Mordin was that he was the only one who could put 2 and 2 together to figure this stuff out.  He already had some prior knowledge of the Collectors and disabled all the surveillance devices Cerberus placed in the lab.  So its plausible he kept the creation of the bug to himself, or that he repaired a broken one the team found (though that is a leap of faith as such a find was never mentioned that I can remember).  So no, Cerberus don't necessarily know how to make the bugs.  At least not yet.  I suspect Veetor's data may eventually lead them to it.

Anyway, being serious now:

No tace. Nada. Nothing. Collectors never left a single thing behind ever. Not a foot print, not a gun, not a camera, not a scorch mark. And they suddenly left an entire bug behind that nobody ever mentioned at all ever...

Also, on building one, you know how they look. The end. You have no idea what their programming is, what their insides are like, what controls them, how they select targets. You have nothing that would let you construct one from scratch.

So it is a plot hole. The bug was delivered by an act of god aparently.

And just to be constructive and say I tried to fix the game: Scrap the bugs completely. Replace with a pulse weapon fired from their ship that stuns everyone for several miles were it hit. they wouldnt use it when their own ship and guys are on the surface, no need for counter measures. the part with the bugs in the suicide mission was just dumb to begin with. just remove that. I cant think of a reason you would need a biotic specialist that cant be achieved by two regular biotics.

[Moiaussi]

No tace. Nada. Nothing. Collectors never left a single thing behind ever. Not a foot print, not a gun, not a camera, not a scorch mark. And they suddenly left an entire bug behind that nobody ever mentioned at all ever...

Also, on building one, you know how they look. The end. You have no idea what their programming is, what their insides are like, what controls them, how they select targets. You have nothing that would let you construct one from scratch.

So it is a plot hole. The bug was delivered by an act of god aparently.

And just to be constructive and say I tried to fix the game: Scrap the bugs completely. Replace with a pulse weapon fired from their ship that stuns everyone for several miles were it hit. they wouldnt use it when their own ship and guys are on the surface, no need for counter measures. the part with the bugs in the suicide mission was just dumb to begin with. just remove that. I cant think of a reason you would need a biotic specialist that cant be achieved by two regular biotics.

Be fair on that one... this is the first time the Collectors have had to pull out under fire (which really begs the question how anyone figured they would successfully target Earth. Safe bet Earth has bigger guns and a lot more than just one, not to mention likely has VI's that kick in if the entire command staff mysteriously falls unconscious.

[Skurrow]

Moiaussi wrote...

Be fair on that one... this is the first time the Collectors have had to pull out under fire (which really begs the question how anyone figured they would successfully target Earth. Safe bet Earth has bigger guns and a lot more than just one, not to mention likely has VI's that kick in if the entire command staff mysteriously falls unconscious.

Actually, I think Vaenier is right re his point.

The collectors had already left the planet before we arrived and I don't think Veetor reprogrammed the mechs until later, fearing they would return for him.

In which case:

1) I admit the repair thing was dumb.  I didn't think that through, sorry.

2) The pulse weapon thing would make a lot more sense, but would also be a lot less interesting/stylish.

However:

3) We still don't know exactly what information Veetor recorded.  So, assuming he got enough to give Mordin a good starting point, I think the development process is meant to be as follows:

1) Get data on Swarms from Veetor
2) Recruit Mordin
3) Mordin removes all surveillance equipment from the lab, preventing Cerberus from gaining insights/answers from his work.
4) Mordin studies the data and manages to recreate a bug.  Perhaps not perfectly, but well enough to establish a countermeasure.
5) We are told that this countermeasure Mordin proposes may not work.  We only know for certain that he has been successful once we're on the surface, implying his design is based heavily on assumption.

Modifié par Skurrow, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:12 .

[Moiaussi]

Actually I stand corrected... I was thinking later in the plot.

[Praetor Knight]

Moiaussi wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Jacob's LM has gameplay issues with Thermal Clips certainly, but it is also possible that for gameplay purposes, the Clips are found pre-made like in other areas of the game, from the items found in that level, so that process of conversion into useable Thermal Clips is left un-animated and assumed as they are in other levels that seem unlikely to have so many lying around, and then those Thermal Clips that respawn over time.

The bit about Jacob's mission is that they were on that world for more than 2 years, so they shouldn't have had any thermal clips. They hadn't been invented yet when they crashed.

I remember that they were stranded for over 10 years, but their guns should still use the ME style Heat Sinks, which IMHO, should be convertable into disposable Heat Sinks like in the ME2 Weapons. 

So as you allude to, the main issue is how does Shepard get Thermal Clips in that mission?

So what I tried to describe was a possible way that Thermal Clips can be present at all in that mission. Considering, as you mentioned, that they have only existed as disposable Heat Sinks sometime after 2183, I gave one possible way that fits the ME universe lore as I've come to understand it.

But, again that was just a theory, and if it's no good, well then back to the drawing board, right?

And stored inside makes no sense at all for any form of heat sink.

If that makes no sense, I would like to ask where is the ME 1 Heat Sink, that is actively cooled, kept in ME weapons if not inside?

Also, if you watch closely when a weapon is reloaded you will see a bright orange cylinder fly out of the weapon. I assume it's a spent heat sink.

So the Thermal Clip / Heat Sink description that I gave came from my interpretation of this description, below, found in the 360 game manual.


 


The section in question is this following one: Thermal Clips hold a store of disposable heat sinks universal to all small arms. Instead of waiting for an overheated weapon to cool down, you can simply eject the spent heat sink and the clip feeds in a new one.

Also the part about the HUD element mentions:The HUD element in the lower left corner shows how many shots are left in your weapons thermal clip. The bar below this number is the progress towards expending your current heat sink.

So using the Carnifex as an example below, there are 5 of 6 total shots on the left side, which represents the current Heat Sink, with the 12 of total 18 on the right side represents the other available heat sinks of the Thermal Clip.

And the Red horizontal bar also represents the current Heat Sink's capacity.



Regarding Thermal Clips, this has been what I was trying to describe in my earlier posts also. I hope it makes sense though, with the way I've tried to explain it.

Edit: fixing formatting.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:54 .

[swenson]

On the bugs, I just thought of another couple of options. Neither works perfectly, because the source of the bug Mordin had should've been mentioned in-game, but maybe one of these explanations will work for you.



First, maybe Veetor captured one. This is unlikely and DEFINITELY should've been mentioned, but is possible.



Second, why are there no seeker swarms left behind when the Collectors leave? I highly doubt they run around the entire colony picking up all of them, and they likely don't have enough intelligence to be directed back to the ship. So I figure they're probably set to self-destruct after a certain amount of time, leaving no trace of their existence (or leaving only dust or something). If Shepard and Co. were able to get to Freedom's Progress after the Collectors left but before the swarms totally self-destructed, they might have been able to save one. Again, highly unlikely, but if you don't like the "Mordin built one with Veetor's data" theory (which, granted, opens up a lot of other questions... but maybe it's so difficult to build only Mordin could handle it or something?), then maybe one of these two will help.

[Moiaussi]

One would expect they'd be designed with basic directional control, or at least a homing signal.



There is the possibility one got stuck in a vent when Veetor locked down the building he was in, or even just got 'stuck in the geometry,' depending on how good their pathfinding algorithms are.

[swenson]

Haha, I like that solution! Goodness knows plenty of other Mass Effect characters have gotten stuck in geometry... HOW many missions have I had to completely redo because somebody's biotics threw an enemy out of the level?!