467 réponses à ce sujet

[Turkeysock]

I just gotta say, every story has plot holes. You poke enough, you'll find them even in some of the great novels like The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings series, as well in comics, movies, and of course games. They were all written by humans, so of course they would have plot holes in them.



A lot of the folks who have made huge tantrums about them so far have been the same ones who've been whining about all those little changes in the game too. Basically, don't worry about it, it's a game! Have fun and enjoy it! And stop reading the negative threads.

[adam_grif]

mhendon wrote...

That article was gold. Gill Kaiser is right, but it feels like we shouldn't be having this discussion at all. the main problem is decompression, not heat loss. He would need a pressurized suit to prevent that as the article suggests, but again it would take 9-11 seconds for decompression to adversely affect him. Perhaps it was a failure of bioware to consider the audience: one that has been influenced by scenes of Hollywood astronauts being instantly frozen, or that we wouldn't think about it that much...or, on the positive end, BW beleived we actually knew something about space. This now seems to be a very complicated scene. I will rationalize it Lol. I seem to think as I post. I've learned a lot. Thanks for the argument

The general concensus is that if you exhale as much as you can out before you go into vacuum, you drastically increase the time you can survive. This prevents the difference in pressure between your lungs and the vacuum from doing even more damage.

It needen't be as short as 11 seconds, especially considering that he was a trained alliance pilot (and presumably precausions like that would be common knowledge for people in the space military)

[Gill Kaiser]

adam_grif wrote...

mhendon wrote...

That article was gold. Gill Kaiser is right, but it feels like we shouldn't be having this discussion at all. the main problem is decompression, not heat loss. He would need a pressurized suit to prevent that as the article suggests, but again it would take 9-11 seconds for decompression to adversely affect him. Perhaps it was a failure of bioware to consider the audience: one that has been influenced by scenes of Hollywood astronauts being instantly frozen, or that we wouldn't think about it that much...or, on the positive end, BW beleived we actually knew something about space. This now seems to be a very complicated scene. I will rationalize it Lol. I seem to think as I post. I've learned a lot. Thanks for the argument

The general concensus is that if you exhale as much as you can out before you go into vacuum, you drastically increase the time you can survive. This prevents the difference in pressure between your lungs and the vacuum from doing even more damage.

It needen't be as short as 11 seconds, especially considering that he was a trained alliance pilot (and presumably precausions like that would be common knowledge for people in the space military)

That's not even an issue, because he was wearing a face mask.

[tsd16]

MMkain wrote...

In the opening scene Joker spends a great deal of time unprotected in space. While this isn't a plot whole it does strike me as a glaring error. Infact there are multiple instances in the game where party members have exposed flesh while in inhospitible conditions.

i questioned that too.  Then unquestioned it, then requestioned it again.

in the cockpit, the cockpit is sealed off by a forcefield, but then shep drags him to the escape pod, he is then exposed to the vaccuum of space his brain woulda been sucked out his ears.

his skin practically would freeze on contact.  yeah he had a face mask on, but theres a reason astronauts wear full body suits and not scuba style breathing apparatuses.

Modifié par tsd16, 13 février 2010 - 09:32 .

[adam_grif]

Yeah but unless he was wearing a pressure suit the difference in pressure between his lungs and the vacuum are going to be what kills him. It's not about lack of oxygen.



He'll also want to keep his eyes shut the whole time, otherwise the water in his eyes will become a gas thanks to the extreme drop in pressure (low pressure = lower boiling temperature) and his eyes may well freeze over because of it.

[Gill Kaiser]

adam_grif wrote...

Yeah but unless he was wearing a pressure suit the difference in pressure between his lungs and the vacuum are going to be what kills him. It's not about lack of oxygen.

He'll also want to keep his eyes shut the whole time, otherwise the water in his eyes will become a gas thanks to the extreme drop in pressure (low pressure = lower boiling temperature) and his eyes may well freeze over because of it.

Surely the mask and his body will create a closed system for his lungs?

[TLK Spires]

jacob's loyalty mission requires you to visit a place where people have been stranded there for 10 years. they have had no outside contact up until you and jacob land there.



heat sinks were developed around the time shepard originally died 2 years prior to mass effect 2.



that being said, why do people who use 10 year old technology and have had no outside contact since drop heat sinks when they are killed?

[adam_grif]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

Yeah but unless he was wearing a pressure suit the difference in pressure between his lungs and the vacuum are going to be what kills him. It's not about lack of oxygen.

He'll also want to keep his eyes shut the whole time, otherwise the water in his eyes will become a gas thanks to the extreme drop in pressure (low pressure = lower boiling temperature) and his eyes may well freeze over because of it.

Surely the mask and his body will create a closed system for his lungs?

Maybe? I'm not sure. I wouldn't want to risk it either way.

I'm sure there's a damn good reason why NASA space suits are full body coverings operating with fixed volume joints instead of just a breather you strap over your face.

Hey, what was his mask made of anyway? It looked sort of like a more transparent version of "whatever omnitools are built from".

Modifié par adam_grif, 13 février 2010 - 09:42 .

[Outshined87]

Wouldn't consider it a plot hole but I'm surprised Shepard didn't experience any kind of psychological trauma from being dead for two years and brought back to life. I mean really, can you imagine how horrifying that would be? Jacob even mentions when he first saw you, you were nothing but "flesh and tubes". Shepard just sort of nonchalantly accepts it.



I suppose it wouldn't have been as epic a story if he had a panic attack and lived the rest of his days as a mumbling hobo on Omega suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, but I still thought Bioware would have explored it beyond a few lines in the Lazarus facility.

[t3f3r1]

1. There is NO continuity or even dialogue to address one of only THREE background choices for Shepard's Military career and the discovery through sidequest that Cerberus was involved even though there is a damned news splurge about the issue. Completely ignoring shepard's history is a pretty big one.



2. Characters going to a planet or location with HOSTILE CONDITIONS ( the side quest for the blood pack comm relay as an example). Walking around with a mask that only covers mouth / nose and not the eyes or other "orifices" (Jack / Miranda / Samara / Mordin to name a few). Not so much a plothole as a glaring oversight of logic.



3. Going FTL to get away from the collector base while at the center of the galaxy instead of ACTUALLY USING THE RELAY. Again not so much a real plot hole as it is a major oversight of logic.



4. FORCING Shepard's entire combat team onto a shuttle to nowhere as an excuse to have the collector's kidnap the crew... AT LEAST WAIT TILL WE USE A REAL SHUTTLE!!! Getting legion along with the IFF, then going to Legion's loyalty mission it is very CLEAR through cinematics that the normandy is right next to the geth station before and after the mission. Except suddenly the abduction occurs while Shepard is on a "shuttle to nowhere" and once you regain control of the ship you are still next to the geth station.



5. Where and how Does Mordin Obtain even one of the Seeker swarm bugs? Somehow between Freedom's Progress and Horizon he just "ends up" with a seeker inside a glass container on the Normandy for testing? Samples and Data do not equate to "hey I have a whole live seeker to test on."

[kaotician]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Every single squad member boarding the transport shuttle right before the IFF incident still feels wrong to me.

Agreed. It's too convenient.

[kaotician]

HomicidialFrog wrote...

The fact that TIM went so far just to revive one guy, sure Commander Shepard is good, but just put Wrex on board. He's a good leader, probally a better fighter than Shepard and has centuries of extra experience and knows about the Reapers so why not?

Cerberus is a pro-human faction. It makes more sense to revive Shepherd than anyone else.

[kaotician]

adam_grif wrote...

The people stranded on the planet for 8 years with no outside contact using guns that use thermal clips that were only put into service in the last 2 years, as well as using modern mechs.


---


The entire galaxy universally switching over to guns that use thermal clips in under 2 years with no apparent resistance.


---

Thermal clips not being reusable, not passively cooling even though 2 years ago everything passively cooled at a ludicrous rate, and guns were starting to use frictionless materials so they never needed cooling anyway.

Your first point is a good one, and one I have no answer for. Your second point I think can be considered as more representative of the type of technology Cerberus has innovated, rather than a galaxy-wide innovation. The Collectors Particle Weapon, for example, doesn't use thermal clips. We really only see the type of kit Cerberus itself has come up with in ME2. Your third point I think gets covered in point 2.

[Abirn]

Actually the biggest plot hole came in ME1.



Your telling me a specter (and one of the councils favorites) couldn't just walk up to the control panel and activate said relay? The whole conduit had no point to it. Yes Saren used it as a back door for something he literally could have walked up to and nobody would have even said a word about it.

[hawat333]

For one, Tali on Freedom's Progress.

She has absolutely no reaction to loose her entire squad during the attack. (Yeah, they wen't on their own, but was still her responsibility).

It's either a plot hole or she's a pure cold hearthed b..ch.

The latter is not likely given her inexperienced, naive geek behaviour.

[Cerbx104]

ashley williams came out of nowhere on horizon just fine and spoke about shepard highly..  i thought she was in stasis..

[Aradace]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The only one I know of is the Normandy accelerating to FTL to escape the exploding Collector Base, when they're in a small safe zone in the centre of the galaxy surrounded by black holes.

Actually, this one's already been answered...They only need the IFF to get IN to the galactic core...as long as they didnt FTL outside of the "safe zone" they were fine.

[Gill Kaiser]

Aradace wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The only one I know of is the Normandy accelerating to FTL to escape the exploding Collector Base, when they're in a small safe zone in the centre of the galaxy surrounded by black holes.

Actually, this one's already been answered...They only need the IFF to get IN to the galactic core...as long as they didnt FTL outside of the "safe zone" they were fine.

I know that, but I assumed that travelling at that speed for even a second would drop you out of the safe zone, which supposedly is only 1000s of kilometres wide.

[adam_grif]

Your second point I think can be considered as more representative of the type of technology Cerberus has innovated, rather than a galaxy-wide innovation. The Collectors Particle Weapon, for example, doesn't use thermal clips. We really only see the type of kit Cerberus itself has come up with in ME2. Your third point I think gets covered in point 2.

All of the mercenary bands use them, all of the mechs use them, all the way from the Citadel to the Heretic space station to the Terminus system. Even the goddamn collectors drop thermal clips like there's no tomorrow. Not to mention the random Urdnot dead bodies on Grunt's loyalty mission.



It's true that the particle beam isn't using them, but it uses the exact same standardized "power cell" stuff that somehow powers a rocket launcher? Or something? How exactly does a rocket launcher get rockets from power cells?



The third point was related to frictionless materials shown in ME1 - the spectre X AR w/ 2x frictionless materials X could fire. Forever. Without stopping.



You could say that this was just a gameplay conceit and isn't cannonical, and fair enough. But the heat management in atmospheric combat was not so big a concern as to require replaceable heatsinks in ME2. It's just authorial fiat, and it's almost laughable watching them try to hand wave it away as a serious in-universe thing.



It wouldn't be so silly if it was optional - if guns still passively cooled, just slower than they did in ME1. Then it makes sense to carry them around for increased downrange firepower in tight situations, but without the stupidity associated with giving up infinite ammo for your soldiers.

[Rankao]

Abirn wrote...

Actually the biggest plot hole came in ME1.

Your telling me a specter (and one of the councils favorites) couldn't just walk up to the control panel and activate said relay? The whole conduit had no point to it. Yes Saren used it as a back door for something he literally could have walked up to and nobody would have even said a word about it.

I consider it a hint on who NOT to choose for team leaders on last mission.

[kaotician]

adam_grif wrote...

Your second point I think can be considered as more representative of the type of technology Cerberus has innovated, rather than a galaxy-wide innovation. The Collectors Particle Weapon, for example, doesn't use thermal clips. We really only see the type of kit Cerberus itself has come up with in ME2. Your third point I think gets covered in point 2.

All of the mercenary bands use them, all of the mechs use them, all the way from the Citadel to the Heretic space station to the Terminus system. Even the goddamn collectors drop thermal clips like there's no tomorrow. Not to mention the random Urdnot dead bodies on Grunt's loyalty mission.

It's true that the particle beam isn't using them, but it uses the exact same standardized "power cell" stuff that somehow powers a rocket launcher? Or something? How exactly does a rocket launcher get rockets from power cells?

The third point was related to frictionless materials shown in ME1 - the spectre X AR w/ 2x frictionless materials X could fire. Forever. Without stopping.

You could say that this was just a gameplay conceit and isn't cannonical, and fair enough. But the heat management in atmospheric combat was not so big a concern as to require replaceable heatsinks in ME2. It's just authorial fiat, and it's almost laughable watching them try to hand wave it away as a serious in-universe thing.

It wouldn't be so silly if it was optional - if guns still passively cooled, just slower than they did in ME1. Then it makes sense to carry them around for increased downrange firepower in tight situations, but without the stupidity associated with giving up infinite ammo for your soldiers.

These are very good points you've made. To rationalise some at least of your excellent observations, perhaps Cerberus earns a stack of its' money by selling arms to Merc bands and the like? With regards to therwise, I think as you suggest that a lot of this is gameplay conceit - it's a perennial problem in all shoot-em-up types of games and ME2. The numbers of crates etc that contain nothing but a handy weapon clip in other games. It's a real conceptual problem, and so far no one has an answer for it. Perpetual weaponry as a solution costs a lot more in gameplay terms than it answers from a conceptual 'immersiveness' standpoint.

[Jedi_blues]

Really, I think this is much ado about nothing when you look at the context. ME 2 is by far the best sequel in history as far as taking so many decisions from the first game and filtering them through the second. Before this "importing" a character save meant very little other than importing the name.



There are bound to be a few inconsistencies with all the decisions available in ME1.



Re: the story. As far as I know, ME 2 had not been written at the time of ME1's release. SO of course they had to change a few things as the plot for the trilogy goes.



The only HUGE issue for me is the Council denying the reapers. I completely understand why they deny it publicly, due to the mass panic it would create. But surely Shep recorded these conversations, the fact that the council is no secretly working on a solution is ridiculous. I understand why they did it, they wanted Shep to feel cut off, but that was just poor writing. Overall I would say the writing, especially the dialog, was excellent. Unfortunately this particular plot device felt too contrived.

[Draconis6666]

Abirn wrote...

Actually the biggest plot hole came in ME1.

Your telling me a specter (and one of the councils favorites) couldn't just walk up to the control panel and activate said relay? The whole conduit had no point to it. Yes Saren used it as a back door for something he literally could have walked up to and nobody would have even said a word about it.

No he needed it so he could get his geth on board the citadel so that when sovereign showed up they didnt just close the station and then send every single c-sec officer ,specter, etc to go kill saren so he couldn't Re-open it. He needed the chaos etc that attacking the presidium with an army of geth provided to allow sovereign to actualy reach the station and interface with it.

I'm sure they could have done it but it has alot more risk factor than the method they attempted and since it was Sovereign not Saren calling the shots and Sovereign is a machine intelligence its going to chose the option that it calculates has the highest probability of success.

[adam_grif]

kaotician wrote...

These are very good points you've made. To rationalise some at least of your excellent observations, perhaps Cerberus earns a stack of its' money by selling arms to Merc bands and the like? With regards to therwise, I think as you suggest that a lot of this is gameplay conceit - it's a perennial problem in all shoot-em-up types of games and ME2. The numbers of crates etc that contain nothing but a handy weapon clip in other games. It's a real conceptual problem, and so far no one has an answer for it. Perpetual weaponry as a solution costs a lot more in gameplay terms than it answers from a conceptual 'immersiveness' standpoint.

Thermal clips aren't a cerberus thing, the codex (in the mass accelerator entry, if I recall correctly) states that they were a Geth innovation, and that all the militaries and mercenary bands all decided to go with it because it's "better".

[ShoepZA]

I'd like to know how its possible that i can take a missile to my face