103 réponses à ce sujet

[baller7345]

Looy wrote...

Hellraisin wrote...

playing an engineer, I found Cryo Blast very useful in complete shutting down an enemy for a few seconds. The problem is that it does no damage by itself so people tend to dismiss anything cryo when compared to things like AP ammo or incinerate. It's another one of those skills that will take a bit of convincing for people to try and like.

The thing is though, if you were a seninel level 1 push would put the enemy out of action instantly and may kill him, if you where an engy Incenerate would deal heavy damage and also cause the enemy to spaz out for a few seconds. So cyro blast is basically only usefull against non-organic high hp melee enemies, which isn't really much.

With the Sententiel I don't know but for the engineer cryo blast is a must.  It's true that incinerate does make them spaz out for a few seconds but it doesn't really one shot anything outside of vorcha or husks.  Cryo blast can keep an enemy frozen for 6-9 seconds based on which one you choose and then it takes about 2-4 seconds for them to get up after unthawing.  My engineer had full cryo blast and I used it as much if not more than incinerate.  By the end of the game I rarely used incinerate for health damage because with  a combination of cryo blast and neural shock I was able to lock down most enemies and spent a lot of my time meleing things.  Synthetics got a few more overloads but the ability to take 1-5 (most i've got in a single blast) things out for 8-13 seconds is a very powerful ability especially on insanity where stuff kills engineers fast.

[SuperVaderMan]

Cryo Blast > Krogan, without moving them out of range, allowing them to regen, and making them take double damage.



And I like freezing YMIR mechs

[baller7345]

SuperVaderMan wrote...

Cryo Blast > Krogan, without moving them out of range, allowing them to regen, and making them take double damage.

And I like freezing YMIR mechs

Most definitely agree on the YMIR mech freezing, that is the first thing I do when I get them to health because it stops their gunfire.

[JaegerBane]

Frotality wrote...

it suffers the same problem as biotics, they only work on unprotected enemies, who at that point are so much easier to just simply kill with the dozens of other more effective ways to do so. the whole defense system is out of whack like that; if it isnt an ability specific designed for that defense; its pointless, and seeing how cryo abilities work on no defense, they are useless against anything but husks that so many seem to have trouble with; but of course as an infiltrator i just burn them (or use mordin), and even on veteran its a OHKO, so still have no reason to use cryo anything.

This. Generally speaking the whole defence system concept, I feel, is the poorest aspect of Mass Effect 2. Originally biotics were considered crowd control while tech abilities were considered debuffs, with some corssover in between. Now, as you say, if they're not specifically designed to handle armour, they're effectively relegated to finishing moves.

This is less of a problem on Normal than it is on the higher difficulty seetings, as generally only bosses have defences (the few peons who have armour have so little that a single shot from a handcannon with fire ammo will deal with it) but it still really skews the class balance in the game.

I agree, cryo ammo should do some sort of extra effect rather than just freezing.

[SupidSeep]

Mayhap the Engineer may have a use for Cryo, but playing through Sentinel on Insanity, I find Throw much faster and effective. A charging Korgan can still shoot and kill as he SLOWLY freezes into a statue. Throw will knock him off his feet quickly and more importantly has a shorter CD.

On Derelict Reaper I basically use Avenger+AP ammo to shoot the armour off a husk before instakilling it with Throw.

Cryo ammo and Cryo Blast would be more useful if they have some lesser effect on protected targets. Such as, reduced movement speed, increased cooldown on special attacks, or worsen weapon accuracy. The last would be a godsend on higher difficulty if it is effective in reducing the rate of damage suffered by Shepard & Co.

[JaegerBane]

SupidSeep wrote...
Cryo ammo and Cryo Blast would be more useful if they have some lesser effect on protected targets. Such as, reduced movement speed, increased cooldown on special attacks, or worsen weapon accuracy. The last would be a godsend on higher difficulty if it is effective in reducing the rate of damage suffered by Shepard & Co.

Personally, I kinda wish they kept Cryo ammo is the same kind of stuff that it was in ME1, but with Freezing as side effect.

That is, a less effective anti-shield ammo that trades Disruptor level shield damage and synthetic wtfpwning for a side ability to freeze shield/armour-less opponents solid. Giving it a single effect that doesn't do anything to defences was a stupid idea from the get go.

Failing that, It should have been a bonus/squadmate ability. Not a core ability. Infiltrators would have been better off with Cryo blast, Vanguards would have been better off with Disruptor Ammo, and Soldiers have never really been the class that needs crowd control They're a specialist class. Not to mention that squad Cryo would have been much easier to get for all players rather than play one of the combat classes and spend a ton of points in something that would have worked far better elsewhere.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 15 février 2010 - 05:02 .

[thisisme8]

JaegerBane wrote...

SupidSeep wrote...
Cryo ammo and Cryo Blast would be more useful if they have some lesser effect on protected targets. Such as, reduced movement speed, increased cooldown on special attacks, or worsen weapon accuracy. The last would be a godsend on higher difficulty if it is effective in reducing the rate of damage suffered by Shepard & Co.

Personally, I kinda wish they kept Cryo ammo is the same kind of stuff that it was in ME1, but with Freezing as side effect.

That is, a less effective anti-shield ammo that trades Disruptor level shield damage and synthetic wtfpwning for a side ability to freeze shield/armour-less opponents solid. Giving it a single effect that doesn't do anything to defences was a stupid idea from the get go.

Failing that, It should have been a bonus/squadmate ability. Not a core ability. Infiltrators would have been better off with Cryo blast, Vanguards would have been better off with Disruptor Ammo, and Soldiers have never really been the class that needs crowd control They're a specialist class. Not to mention that squad Cryo would have been much easier to get for all players rather than play one of the combat classes and spend a ton of points in something that would have worked far better elsewhere.

Read my reply on the other Cryo topic.  I won't argue with the Infiltrator and Soldier point, but I would never trade Cryo Ammo for Disruptor on a Vanguard.  Never.

[JaegerBane]

thisisme8 wrote...
Read my reply on the other Cryo topic.  I won't argue with the Infiltrator and Soldier point, but I would never trade Cryo Ammo for Disruptor on a Vanguard.  Never.

I did. While I can understand what you're saying, with respect, I think it's a bit of a subjective argument to claim that Vanguards actually benefit from having shields on opponents. Ultimately all it comes down to is if you can hit your target when he's flying backward.

[RighteousRage]

The only cryo ability that seems to be worth it to me is squad cryo ammo

[baller7345]

RighteousRage wrote...

The only cryo ability that seems to be worth it to me is squad cryo ammo

I can't say for the ammo versions but on an engineer cryo blast is one of my most used and favorite power.  The engineer is extremely fragile and cryo blast lets you take mulitple enemies out of the fight allows you to actually lets you get quite agressive to the point that you could theorectically melee every enemy you saw.  It isn't always better to damage something because while you are hurting it it is still shooting at you, however if you freeze it, while it may still have full health, it is taken completely out of the fight for at least 6 seconds.  6 seconds is a lifetime on insanity.

[thisisme8]

So like I said, not an expert, but this seems to be pretty good use of it:

Mass Effect 2 - Engineer Insanity Montage 2

[hexediter]

I dunno, I always thought Mordin's non-travel time aoe-Cryro ability (if speced that way) was one of the better abilities in the game.  Very short cooldown on an awsome ability on a character who is full of win to begin with and always says funny things.  Though AOE throw on shepard is very comparable I suppose, except you won't be meleeing anyone down with it.

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

Get rid of them as locked skills and I might try them more.

[Soruyao]

As an infiltrator, rank 2 cryo ammo on my heavy pistol saved my life on many occasions. When someone's in your face, there's nothing better than freezing them and meleeing them to death.



(And frozen husks just insta-shatter whether they're shot or not, so you're effectively two shotting them all.)

[Sprgmr]

What about with soldiers? You have to go through disruptor and inferno to get to cryo, which mostly renders it useless.

[Sfox1989]

thisisme8 wrote...

So like I said, not an expert, but this seems to be pretty good use of it:

Mass Effect 2 - Engineer Insanity Montage 2

Your CQC Infiltrator video was awesome. What was your exact build? I am going to be trying that play style with my character

[thisisme8]

Sfox1989 wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

So like I said, not an expert, but this seems to be pretty good use of it:

Mass Effect 2 - Engineer Insanity Montage 2

Your CQC Infiltrator video was awesome. What was your exact build? I am going to be trying that play style with my character

I don't even remember...  I believe it was:

Level 5
2 Disrupter Ammo
1 Cryo Ammo
2 Cloak
1 Incinerate
1 Operative

Edit:  Fixed build so it reflects what I was using.

Modifié par thisisme8, 16 février 2010 - 09:03 .

[Average Gatsby]

So I've got a thread open where I'm hoping to get a dev response on frozen/cyro'd enemies damage bonus. Right now, I'm thinking from simple observation that its anywhere from a 50% to a 100% damage bonus, which would mean that cryo would act kind of like a hybrid of a CC move and a damage booster. Cryo ammo would act like how disruptor ammo works on geth when they've been reduced from shields. Also, you'll notice the damage bonus seems to start as soon as the enemy begins to freeze over, so you may be getting damage bonuses for longer than just after the enemy is totally frozen.



We'll see. Hopefully the devs will respond.

[dynas2001]

Techo Angel wrote...

Cryo Blast and Ammo should work like the Cryo round Mods in ME1 did, pierce threw shields and Barriers on a limited level. Ideally this makes Inferno Ammo your Armor Puncher, Cyro your shield killer.

agree. I think cryro abilities should be patched myself.

They should work similar to me1.. or at least do more damage until the shields/armor are down. Needs a patch.

[dynas2001]

As others have said - on normal cryo is useful (which is what the game was designed around i guess), BUT if it did do extra damage or went through shields or worked somewhat like it did in me1 it would be more balanced for all difficulty levels.

[dynas2001]

as an engineer being stormed by husks, vorcha ... on higher difficulty levels any freezing ability is useless as they all have armor.

[WillieStyle]

JaegerBane wrote...

Frotality wrote...

it suffers the same problem as biotics, they only work on unprotected enemies, who at that point are so much easier to just simply kill with the dozens of other more effective ways to do so. the whole defense system is out of whack like that; if it isnt an ability specific designed for that defense; its pointless, and seeing how cryo abilities work on no defense, they are useless against anything but husks that so many seem to have trouble with; but of course as an infiltrator i just burn them (or use mordin), and even on veteran its a OHKO, so still have no reason to use cryo anything.

This. Generally speaking the whole defence system concept, I feel, is the poorest aspect of Mass Effect 2. Originally biotics were considered crowd control while tech abilities were considered debuffs, with some corssover in between. Now, as you say, if they're not specifically designed to handle armour, they're effectively relegated to finishing moves.

This is less of a problem on Normal than it is on the higher difficulty seetings, as generally only bosses have defences (the few peons who have armour have so little that a single shot from a handcannon with fire ammo will deal with it) but it still really skews the class balance in the game.

I agree, cryo ammo should do some sort of extra effect rather than just freezing.

This superficial analysis is wrong.  The vast majority of enemies in game have a significant amount of health.  Enemies continue to do full dps while down to health and on insanity, it takes a nontrivial amount of time to kill them.  This is especially true when dealing with packs of enemies.
-Cryo ammo/blast crowd controls enemies for roughly 33-50% of the time they're alive.  This is always useful. Against packs of regular mobs, it reduces damage taken by your squad by up to 50%.  It also keeps mobs from ducking back behind cover (one of the things that slows down kill speed the most in ME2).  Against tough enemies like Heavy Mechs, its just as useful.
-Cryo ammo/blast also offer a damage boost against frozen targets.  This acts as an effective bonus to damage against health.  This is nice because it likely stacks with any ammo bonuses you have. So if you have Tungsten ammo, and cyroblast an enemy (or have your squadmates shoot it with cryo ammo), you get the bonus dage from both Tungsten and the freeze effect.  This DRAMATICALLY increases dps because the vast majority of enemies have significant amounts of health.

Average Gatsby has already done great work showing how biotic abilities like pull are useful even though they don't pierce defenses. 
This complaint is made by people who:
-Haven't used these abilities extensively in game.  People like Average Gatsby with videos showing how effective they are actually have.
-Want Biotics/Tech to be as overpowered as they were in ME1 or as "magic users" tend to be in most RPGs.  I mean cryo ammo/blast freezing enemies with defenses? Why would you ever use anything else?

Modifié par WillieStyle, 16 février 2010 - 04:26 .

[JaegerBane]

WillieStyle wrote...
This superficial analysis is wrong.  The vast majority of enemies in game have a significant amount of health.  Enemies continue to do full dps while down to health and on insanity, it takes a nontrivial amount of time to kill them.  This is especially true when dealing with packs of enemies.
-Cryo ammo/blast crowd controls enemies for roughly 33-50% of the time they're alive.  This is always useful. Against packs of regular mobs, it reduces damage taken by your squad by up to 50%.  It also keeps mobs from ducking back behind cover (one of the things that slows down kill speed the most in ME2).  Against tough enemies like Heavy Mechs, its just as useful.
-Cryo ammo/blast also offer a damage boost against frozen targets.  This acts as an effective bonus to damage against health.  This is nice because it likely stacks with any ammo bonuses you have. So if you have Tungsten ammo, and cyroblast an enemy (or have your squadmates shoot it with cryo ammo), you get the bonus dage from both Tungsten and the freeze effect.  This DRAMATICALLY increases dps because the vast majority of enemies have significant amounts of health.

Look, without wanting to be blunt, I would suggest you actually make sure you understand what has been said before branding anything 'superficial'. I can only assume you haven't, judging from the fact that both issues you've brought up here have little relevance when considered within the context of the game, nor do they make much sense regarding the issue of armour being discussed in this very thread.

Case in point - any enemy that Cryo can affect, can also be taken down by Biotics *far* faster. That's the core issue, in case you didn't realise. All the gumph about how it creates damage bonuses and stops firing is taking place on enemies who could, in far less time, be simply blasted off the map, thrown off ledges or simply ignored (and in the case of Warp and Warp Ammo, actually falling into the increased DPS bracket too). It's a case of Cryo abilities taking more time to do the same thing.

Average Gatsby has already done great work showing how biotic abilities like pull are useful even though they don't pierce defenses. 
This complaint is made by people who:
-Haven't used these abilities extensively in game.  People like Average Gatsby with videos showing how effective they are actually have.
-Want Biotics/Tech to be as overpowered as they were in ME1 or as "magic users" tend to be in most RPGs.  I mean cryo ammo/blast freezing enemies with defenses? Why would you ever use anything else?

I really do love these absurd generalisations. The simple fact I've commented in a certain fashion must mean that I'm a munchkin, is that about right? Now I wonder where I've heard that crap before...

No-one is claiming that Cryo abilities are totally useless. There are, of course, uses to them. The point is that as Crowd Control tools, there is simply far, far better available.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 16 février 2010 - 06:37 .

[thisisme8]

JaegerBane wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...
This superficial analysis is wrong.  The vast majority of enemies in game have a significant amount of health.  Enemies continue to do full dps while down to health and on insanity, it takes a nontrivial amount of time to kill them.  This is especially true when dealing with packs of enemies.
-Cryo ammo/blast crowd controls enemies for roughly 33-50% of the time they're alive.  This is always useful. Against packs of regular mobs, it reduces damage taken by your squad by up to 50%.  It also keeps mobs from ducking back behind cover (one of the things that slows down kill speed the most in ME2).  Against tough enemies like Heavy Mechs, its just as useful.
-Cryo ammo/blast also offer a damage boost against frozen targets.  This acts as an effective bonus to damage against health.  This is nice because it likely stacks with any ammo bonuses you have. So if you have Tungsten ammo, and cyroblast an enemy (or have your squadmates shoot it with cryo ammo), you get the bonus dage from both Tungsten and the freeze effect.  This DRAMATICALLY increases dps because the vast majority of enemies have significant amounts of health.

Look, without wanting to be blunt, I would suggest you actually make sure you understand what has been said before branding anything 'superficial'. I can only assume you haven't, judging from the fact that both issues you've brought up here have little relevance when considered within the context of the game, nor do they make much sense regarding the issue of armour being discussed in this very thread.

Case in point - any enemy that Cryo can affect, can also be taken down by Biotics *far* faster. That's the core issue, in case you didn't realise. All the gumph about how it creates damage bonuses and stops firing is taking place on enemies who could, in far less time, be simply blasted off the map, thrown off ledges or simply ignored (and in the case of Warp and Warp Ammo, actually falling into the increased DPS bracket too). It's a case of Cryo abilities taking more time to do the same thing.

Average Gatsby has already done great work showing how biotic abilities like pull are useful even though they don't pierce defenses. 
This complaint is made by people who:
-Haven't used these abilities extensively in game.  People like Average Gatsby with videos showing how effective they are actually have.
-Want Biotics/Tech to be as overpowered as they were in ME1 or as "magic users" tend to be in most RPGs.  I mean cryo ammo/blast freezing enemies with defenses? Why would you ever use anything else?

I really do love these absurd generalisations. The simple fact I've commented in a certain fashion must mean that I'm a munchkin, is that about right? Now I wonder where I've heard that crap before...

No-one is claiming that Cryo abilities are totally useless. There are, of course, uses to them. The point is that as Crowd Control tools, there is simply far, far better available.

You keep missing the whole point.  The Collectors kidnapped thousands of humans and vengeance...  **puts on sunglassess**  ...is a dish best served cold.

[JaegerBane]

thisisme8 wrote...
You keep missing the whole point.  The Collectors kidnapped thousands of humans and vengeance...  **puts on sunglassess**  ...is a dish best served cold.

I personally think it's a dish best served by warping straight into them at supersonic speeds while screaming 'AM FIRIN MAH LAZ0R!!!1111'....

But a well placed Khan reference. Bravo.