34 réponses à ce sujet

[Vikotoru]

There are some pretty fine threads over the forum most of them regarding biotics:

first of all thanks to everybody involved trying to show how biotics are so powerful (A. Gatsby, gr00grams, Sinosleep to name a few). It's good to come to a forum and be able to read some quality posting

My position towards mechanics is that the game is a very polished product with a very fun playability, Kudos to the team. My main grip with mechanics is the Reave bonus power. I post scarcely but anyone reading me will know that I play mainly engineer, I love the class and each passing day I'm discovering new tricks. The engineer as a tech class is incredible good dealing with armor and shields, against barriers it's a little weak (no natural skill).

So I've made this video, showing the end run in the collectors base (first mup) using this build:

Passive Engineer 4 (Demolisher)- I've used this just for the cooldown reduction, to make the video faster
Reave 4
0 in any other skill (even drone)

I know (and I respect) that this is a single player game, anyone is entitled to play it as he/she wishes but I always dislike when there's a single powerful skill that lets you ignore anything and leads to a spam-playstyle.

Two main reasons to post this:
a) To the Designer Team: I don't know is this was intended, I mean: an entry level skill for those not wanting challenges, but personally and respecting your hard work a lot, this kind of skills throw a little shadow over the mechanics. In the video I'm trying to explain the main reasons which lead me to think that is vastly overpowered and why reave degrades the high quality of the system.

For those playing engineers or classes without warp, Im including a different video of a snipy-dominate engineer with no other stripping skill than Squad-WarpAmmo. I think this is a vastly superior gameplay, very fun and the snipe engineer it's a very easy class for insanity (contrary to the shotgun engineer, my prefered build).

Bottom line: As this is a single player, The fix its very easy: I don't use reave on my insanity runs; I'm playing just fine, but:
a)You can play incredible fine on insanity without warp/reave
b)Reave almost trivializes the game even on insanity
c)If people post builds without reave, don't bash them, I'm just demostrating that you can play a just reave build and crush the collectors, but this is not fun, doesn't requires any skill and it's the worst compliment to the game mechanics.

To anyone still reading / watching the vids:
Thank you and keep up the good posting

Videos
Reave spam: www.youtube.com/watch
Engineer rocking without stripping powers (incinerate for armor) www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Vikotoru, 13 février 2010 - 02:26 .

[z4t001]

my adept is far more powerful with jacobs barrier spam than any other ability. seriously, you are a beast. god mode. almost.

[themaxzero]

Reave really is godly. You should see it with a Sentinal with Power Armour and Blood Dragon Armour. Can get up to +45% Power Damage. That triple hit at 5.25 or so is what Area Reave is all about. I follow it up with Cyro Blast if solo or an Throw Field with a team mate.

Good to see someone else uses the "Orb of Doom' dodge.

Modifié par themaxzero, 13 février 2010 - 02:58 .

[Looy]

Yeah, Reave really is too versatile, but I don't think its that game-breaking, especially as in that video you are only fighting collectors. I found my adept breezed through insanity with Barrier and a Shotgun whereas with Reave I repeatedly died to "big" enemies.

[killswitch1968]

I'm not especially impressed as I thought 'triple-warping' enemies on insanity was pretty cheesy, though I used team mates then. Even still my solo warp did pretty good damage. Besides this area of the game isn't really hard for any class. The hardest fights by far are the ones with duel mechs. I don't see how Reave is more overpowered than anything else by this video.



Show me you doing this against the 2 mechs at the Blue Suns or at the end of Garrus' loyalty mission without cheesing the encounter and I'll be more impressed.

[Roxlimn]

Reave is bad on an Adept. It is, at most, a marginal direct damage increase over Warp, and it doesn't explode in a 5 meter radius when combined with other powers. 3 meter radius is pathetic. It's much harder to catch an entire encounter's worth of mobs in it.



For the bonus power, Barrier is better because it allows you to survive mistakes. Reave won't do that.



The game on Insanity is easy enough that people have finished it with an Adept using (of all things) Warp spam. If they can do it with Warp, they sure as heck can do it with Reave.



It is not particularly fast or fun, but you can do it. Many games can be won with boring spammable crap. Not very elegantly, fast, or enjoyable, but it is possible. It's a safe way to design games.

[gr00grams]

I'm not especially impressed as I thought 'triple-warping' enemies on insanity was pretty cheesy, though I used team mates then. Even still my solo warp did pretty good damage. Besides this area of the game isn't really hard for any class. The hardest fights by far are the ones with duel mechs. I don't see how Reave is more overpowered than anything else by this video.



Show me you doing this against the 2 mechs at the Blue Suns or at the end of Garrus' loyalty mission without cheesing the encounter and I'll be more impressed.

Just an fyi; there are areas on all these encounters where you can easily hide, or play run around the cover quite easily.

There is a spot on Garrus' quest where you can go top right, on a platform with cover. It's elevated, and they cannot reach you. You can just sit up there and do whatever you want till you win.
Get up there, and it doesn't matter how long it takes, they cannot kill you.
The thing with collectors that I think elevates them, same for regular drones (like the map with the downed ship, and the sandstorm...) is that they actively encroach on the player. Meaining, they come after you.

Mechs, I too thought at first they were the hardest, but once I learned how truly brainless they are, they are very simple regardless of their hp brickwall-ness.

How brainless are they? you can stay in cover, and move left/right, and they will continually try to reverse their path to go that way. So if you have a move that can be launched from cover, it's pretty easy. If you are entrenched, and they are directly in line, they just stand there.

Cheers,

Modifié par gr00grams, 13 février 2010 - 03:35 .

[Roxlimn]

It must be the graphic that's scrambling everyone's brains. I mean, it DOES look pretty mean and scary and it DOES take a lot of ammunition to bring it down. It's really quite exciting if you buy into it - makes it seem like those fights are nigh-unwinnable.

[RamsenC]

The only class I would ever get Reave on is engineer, so I don't really see it as a problem. Every other class has better options.

[cavallodispade]

how do you have both reave and warp ammo?

[PaperStab]

cavallodispade wrote...

how do you have both reave and warp ammo?

Jack had Squad Warp Ammo.

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

It must be the graphic that's scrambling everyone's brains. I mean, it DOES look pretty mean and scary and it DOES take a lot of ammunition to bring it down. It's really quite exciting if you buy into it - makes it seem like those fights are nigh-unwinnable.

Mainly its tough, highly protected (shields and armour) and both the missile and the chain guy hurt like hell. Apart from Drone spam there is really no way to cheese one except for pillar humping and hide and seek.

Modifié par themaxzero, 13 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[Roxlimn]

So there is no way to cheese one, except for these two OTHER ways to do it? That sounds rather unconvincing, IMO.

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

So there is no way to cheese one, except for these two OTHER ways to do it? That sounds rather unconvincing, IMO.

The thing is those tactics work on all enemies. Not really YMRI specific.

[Roxlimn]

Of course not. You don't pillar chase a krogan because he's far more dangerous up close than he is far away. When you see one, you keep him the heck away from you. Blue Suns Commanders don't pillar chase as well since they will occasionally glitch and shoot clean through a crate and kill you. And so on.



I'm sorry, what was the point again? I mean, YMIR Mechs can be cheesed relatively easily. It's not like you need a Drone to do that. It's a nice thing to have, but by no means as much of an advantage as you seem to be making out.

[Vikotoru]

thanks for the responses so far

killswitch1968 wrote...

I'm not especially impressed as I thought 'triple-warping' enemies on insanity was pretty cheesy, though I used team mates then. Even still my solo warp did pretty good damage. Besides this area of the game isn't really hard for any class. The hardest fights by far are the ones with duel mechs. I don't see how Reave is more overpowered than anything else by this video.

Show me you doing this against the 2 mechs at the Blue Suns or at the end of Garrus' loyalty mission without cheesing the encounter and I'll be more impressed.

I think you misunderstood my post; It's not intended to be impressive: Spamming one skill is incredible boring. My intention was to say
a)Mass effect 2 was marketed as a preparation for an incredible difficult suicide mission.
b)You can ignore every skill from your class and breeze through the suuicide mission on insanity. Is it the better option? No. Is it the fastest? No, but there it is. You can play an engineer/adept/sentine/soldier/vanguard just with reave on insanity, it's boring and it isn't comparable in the hands of a skilled players but it's a viable option as you can see in the video. My point is: It shouldn't

Maybe I should labeled the post as: Things I dislike about mechanics: First part, Reave and the suicide mission!

Another thing I dislike is the Shared Power Cooldown (SPC)
A shared power cooldown from a flow perspective creates a bottleneck, when you use tech armor you have a big cooldown, if you move, shoot etc, many times you are finding that when the SPC wears down, you are going to use again your most effective skill: tech armor. This is true for infiltrators and soldiers (ok soldiers' adrenaline rush is godlike) ADepts and engineers having lower cooldowns have more casting variety.

Ending the post, I repeat my original intention, this is just about things that could be improved for ME3
a)Reave: Heavy hitter against armor-barriers, AoE, CC and selfheal.
b)SPC... I like it and I don't like, here I'm divided, as an engineer I doesn't affect me but as a sentinel or infiltrator... meh
c)Heavy weapons: you can make an alpha strike roughly every three missions making a boss fight very very easy (even before Cain), I think they should have less max ammo to favor the regular use but discouraging the alpha strikes.
d)Unreachable covers: Like the spot on the garrus loyalty mission, you cover ther, you win.

Again these are opinions based on my personal playstyles tastes

EDIT: Grammar and to say that I'm uploading the dual mechs fight to youtube to illustrate the Unreachable covers point. 30 mins

Modifié par Vikotoru, 13 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

Of course not. You don't pillar chase a krogan because he's far more dangerous up close than he is far away. When you see one, you keep him the heck away from you. Blue Suns Commanders don't pillar chase as well since they will occasionally glitch and shoot clean through a crate and kill you. And so on.

I'm sorry, what was the point again? I mean, YMIR Mechs can be cheesed relatively easily. It's not like you need a Drone to do that. It's a nice thing to have, but by no means as much of an advantage as you seem to be making out.

I have never had a Commander glitch on me.

Drones are good against YMIR cause if you time it right you can get them chain casting missile. This leaves a lot more time to shoot (since the missile takes a while to fire and fires slow) and is far less dangerous then the chain gun (which fires for a long time).

[Roxlimn]

I don't see how that's such a huge advantage. As an Adept, you can spam Energy Drain until the Shields are down, then Warp, then Energy Drain again. As long as you're in the right location, those Mechs go down pretty uneventfully.

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

I don't see how that's such a huge advantage. As an Adept, you can spam Energy Drain until the Shields are down, then Warp, then Energy Drain again. As long as you're in the right location, those Mechs go down pretty uneventfully.

Cause every Adept has Energy Drain right?

"As long as you're in the right location"

Probably one of the things that helps YMIR bots is you tend to fight them in some pretty average positions. Often the 'safe area' isn't exactly obvious. The Garrus loyalty safe spot is up a level to your right when most people who probably take the boxes infront of them. The safe zone in Freedom's hope is way off to the side in a building. The triple mech sidequest has no real safe zone and the mechs can only agro one at a time (if all 3 came at once you would probably be squished).

[Roxlimn]

themaxzero:



It is not limited to Energy Drain. There are a number of ways you can arrange to kill those mech shields quickly. Energy Drain is simply the most obvious one. I could enumerate a few ways for you, but I'm assuming you already knew what those were.



As for not being obvious - I dunno. I glommed onto those areas rather quickly - it's obvious that the mechs need ramps to move around anywhere, so any area with cover that doesn't involve a ramp is going to meet your needs.



The triple mech sidequest needs no hidey-hole for you to seek cover in, and you can still tackle that reasonably well. In any case, being able to find some few other credits isn't what I would call an outstanding advantage, anyway.



Drone is great and all, but going on about how it allows you to handle YMIR Mechs (a rare opponent type) in a particular manner isn't what I would call a notable feature advantage. As well, we could cite how Singularity trivializes Husk encounters on pretty much all the difficulty levels.

[themaxzero]

Roxlimn wrote...

themaxzero:

It is not limited to Energy Drain. There are a number of ways you can arrange to kill those mech shields quickly. Energy Drain is simply the most obvious one. I could enumerate a few ways for you, but I'm assuming you already knew what those were.

As for not being obvious - I dunno. I glommed onto those areas rather quickly - it's obvious that the mechs need ramps to move around anywhere, so any area with cover that doesn't involve a ramp is going to meet your needs.

The triple mech sidequest needs no hidey-hole for you to seek cover in, and you can still tackle that reasonably well. In any case, being able to find some few other credits isn't what I would call an outstanding advantage, anyway.

Drone is great and all, but going on about how it allows you to handle YMIR Mechs (a rare opponent type) in a particular manner isn't what I would call a notable feature advantage. As well, we could cite how Singularity trivializes Husk encounters on pretty much all the difficulty levels.

Drones are good against Husks too. Against Husks it seems to be able to agro multiple Husks (about 3-4).

[Roxlimn]

themaxzero:



Aggro nothing. Singularity insta-kills Husks without Armor, and you can strip those pretty fast with a good gun and good ammo, not counting area stuff like Incineration blast. Even on Hardcore, a base Vindicator with middling upgrades (about 30%) and no special ammo will strip a Husk of armor in one burst, plus some Health damage. I can imagine that it would only take special ammo to be able to do the same on Insanity.



Being able to mass-kill Husks on that scale is another order of magnitude better than simply aggroing 3 or 4, and it's notable because dealing with them in other ways is significantly more complicated and skill-intensive.

[themaxzero]

I Area Reave and then Cyro Blast. Just how much better do I need to be? My tactic also works on Varren and Mech Dogs.

[Roxlimn]

themaxzero:



Nah. Tried Area Reave. I was really disappointed. The area effect is much too small and the cooldown much too slow. It takes considerably more effort to use it as opposed to just gunning down all the Husks and letting them run into the Sing - it's almost like cutting them all to 40% HP or so.



As for Varren and Mech Dogs, well we're no longer talking about Drone vs. Singularity now, are we? Don't get me wrong - Drone is a fantastic power, but I don't think it's as powerful as Singularity.