75 réponses à ce sujet

[Doug84]

Qario wrote...

Champion1 wrote...
Given the vast distance involved, the Citadel and DS relay are probably "super-primary" relays and there is no substitute inside the galaxy.  (A tiiiny flaw in the Reapers' planning - they should have had a pair of back-up relays in place.  But perhaps they worried about it being discovered and raising questions.)

Yea I've had the same thought. However there is the derlict reaper in the reaper IFF mission. This reaper (according to the illusive man) was destoyed in a great battle 37 million years ago, if the reapers are so keen to keep themself hidden, wouldn't they have gotten rid of the reaper corpse? and who knows if there are any other reaper corpses out there. Back to the point, their backup system was the collectors, and harbringer clearly states that they will find another way, which I interperet as they've "run out" of backup system to enter the galaxy and have to figure out a new way. Flying from darkspace to the milky way is pretty much out of the question, I'm not an astronomer, but reapers could be millions of lightyears away from the galaxy?

Possibly. Though the Reaper corpse was powerful enough to indocrate anyone who board it for more than a few hours. So possibly they weren't concerned about it.

As for the distance.... FTL does exist in the Mass Effect universe, it just has alot of limitations. I suspect the Reaper version of FTL is alot better than the organic's. Possibly good enough to let them enter the galaxy inside of a few decades.

But I see you're point. Maybe they have a secondary gate? Some people have suggested that the Dark Energy build up inside of Haelstom's sun (see the Tali loyally mission) is a hidden Reaper back up gate charging up. Or they might have a super relay to an area of the Galaxy not currently explored by the Citadel species - after all, they've only explored an estimated 1% of the Galaxy so far.

[TheLostGenius]

 Soverign was not in Dark Space. He was the only Reaper "on patrol". He was simply the ship AI that executes the command to bring in the rest of the Reaper fleet. He never left the system, he probably resided in area that the Omega 4 Relay takes you, a place where no species can travel to and survive.

[Doug84]

SovereignT wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

SovereignT wrote...

I have been wondering about this for the longest of time...

Pretty sure that either the citadel somehow gets reactivated or maybe the collector base turns into a relay or something like that,..

No, they probably could always fly into the Galaxy. BUT the citadel is their best method because a) it uses up hardly any of their energy to do so, allows them to destory the capital of galaxy civilization in one go, crippling political, economy, and military efforts to counter their attack, and c) allows them to control the relay network, ensuring they can isolate individual systems.

EDIT: Flying into the Galaxy via the rim, on the other hand, gives the species time to realise their under attack, rally a huge allied fleet, and attempt to counter the Reapers.

If what you say is in fact correct then it will directly contradict what Vigil said to you in the orginal about the reapers getting trapped in dark space..

To be fair, Vigil was a Prothean VI (or AI?) and hence was limited to whatever information and hypothesis' they had. So its wholy possible for him to be wrong.

[Canez fan 1988]

Qario wrote...

Champion1 wrote...
Given the vast distance involved, the Citadel and DS relay are probably "super-primary" relays and there is no substitute inside the galaxy.  (A tiiiny flaw in the Reapers' planning - they should have had a pair of back-up relays in place.  But perhaps they worried about it being discovered and raising questions.)

Yea I've had the same thought. However there is the derlict reaper in the reaper IFF mission. This reaper (according to the illusive man) was destoyed in a great battle 37 million years ago, if the reapers are so keen to keep themself hidden, wouldn't they have gotten rid of the reaper corpse? and who knows if there are any other reaper corpses out there. Back to the point, their backup system was the collectors, and harbringer clearly states that they will find another way, which I interperet as they've "run out" of backup system to enter the galaxy and have to figure out a new way. Flying from darkspace to the milky way is pretty much out of the question, I'm not an astronomer, but reapers could be millions of lightyears away from the galaxy?

The derelict Reaper was trapped in a brown dwarf, and combine that with the time it would take galactic civilization to rebuild itself the Reapers probably thought it would never be found. They were almost right.

Your right tho, if they have no other way to enter the galaxy, they will have to use FTL travel which will take a LONG time.

[SovereignT]

TBH I expect that none of us are right that they, in Harby's own words "will find another way.."

[Doug84]

SovereignT wrote...

TBH I expect that none of us are right that they, in Harby's own words "will find another way.."

Probably  But we'll have to wait until 2011 at the earliest to find out

[Shadow Wolf783]

Did anyone notice Harb say that the Reapers were not our enemy but means to our salvation. So there could actually be something worse than the reapers out there. Besides we don't know how close the Reapers are to the Galaxy It might take them a long time or a very short time to get there. The Citidal could of been a tactic they used to swarm the Galaxy kind of a Reaper Blitzkrieg to launch their entire force at once catching the galactic community off guard. But Even when the Reapers attacked it was not a simple extermination it was a long an bloody war if I remeber from ME 1 the extermination of the Protheans took a hundred years , and who knows how long it took the Reapers to kill the other species

[GnusmasTHX]

It's obvious that Harbinger considers the Reaper form perfection, in his own mind he was uplifting us by turning us into a Reaper; hence, salvation... From every mortal weakness.

[Doug84]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

It's obvious that Harbinger considers the Reaper form perfection, in his own mind he was uplifting us by turning us into a Reaper; hence, salvation... From every mortal weakness.

This. To the Reapers, organic civilization is temporary, weak, and subject to destruction at any point. They think that 'uplifting' organics to join their ranks is 'salvation'.

[Vagula]

Burdokva wrote...

What Dough84 said, attacking the Citadel gives them the advantage of controlling the mass relays and having unlimited information about the species they are about to exterminate - plus, they destroy the central government and military of the galaxy and effectively cripple it. It's not mandatory, but it's far easier than just parade in, guns blazing.

This makes no sense to me. Why couldn't they just travel manually and attack the Citadel with a suprise attack? I mean it's not too hard to hide in space and I doubt that galactic border patrol exists.

[GnusmasTHX]

Vagula wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

What Dough84 said, attacking the Citadel gives them the advantage of controlling the mass relays and having unlimited information about the species they are about to exterminate - plus, they destroy the central government and military of the galaxy and effectively cripple it. It's not mandatory, but it's far easier than just parade in, guns blazing.

This makes no sense to me. Why couldn't they just travel manually and attack the Citadel with a suprise attack? I mean it's not too hard to hide in space and I doubt that galactic border patrol exists.

Because the galaxy has a 50, 000 light year radius, and the Citadel is not at the edge of the galaxy. It'd take a long time and a lot of resources.

Nor may it even be on the side they're on. 

(I don't think they surround the entire galaxy.)

[Vagula]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Vagula wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

What Dough84 said, attacking the Citadel gives them the advantage of controlling the mass relays and having unlimited information about the species they are about to exterminate - plus, they destroy the central government and military of the galaxy and effectively cripple it. It's not mandatory, but it's far easier than just parade in, guns blazing.

This makes no sense to me. Why couldn't they just travel manually and attack the Citadel with a suprise attack? I mean it's not too hard to hide in space and I doubt that galactic border patrol exists.

Because the galaxy has a 50, 000 light year radius, and the Citadel is not at the edge of the galaxy. It'd take a long time and a lot of resources.

Nor may it even be on the side they're on. 

(I don't think they surround the entire galaxy.)

They had to be able to build the mass relays in the first place so unless they forgot how they must be able to fly here. When talking about a suprise attack I really don't think it matters if the Citadel is on the edge or center of the galaxy. The galaxy is so god damn big that the chances that you bump into anything on your way are near zero.

And the thickness of milky way is only 1000 ly so pretty much everywhere is on the edge of the galaxy.

Modifié par Vagula, 13 février 2010 - 09:05 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Vagula wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Vagula wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

What Dough84 said, attacking the Citadel gives them the advantage of controlling the mass relays and having unlimited information about the species they are about to exterminate - plus, they destroy the central government and military of the galaxy and effectively cripple it. It's not mandatory, but it's far easier than just parade in, guns blazing.

This makes no sense to me. Why couldn't they just travel manually and attack the Citadel with a suprise attack? I mean it's not too hard to hide in space and I doubt that galactic border patrol exists.

Because the galaxy has a 50, 000 light year radius, and the Citadel is not at the edge of the galaxy. It'd take a long time and a lot of resources.

Nor may it even be on the side they're on. 

(I don't think they surround the entire galaxy.)

They had to be able to build the mass relays in the first place so unless they forgot how they must be able to fly here. When talking about a suprise attack I really don't think it matters if the Citadel is on the edge or center of the galaxy. The galaxy is so god damn big that the chances that you bump into anything on your way are near zero.

And the thickness of milky way is only 1000 ly so pretty much everywhere is on the edge of the galaxy.

And what makes you think it didn't take them a million years to do so?

And it's science fiction. OBVIOUSLY the invading extra-galactic force will come over the galaxy like a top-down rts map, from the fringes to the center-ish. Otherwise it wouldn't be awesome.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 09:10 .

[Vagula]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

And what makes you think it didn't take them a million years to do so?

Because we will play as Shepard in ME3.

[GnusmasTHX]

Vagula wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

And what makes you think it didn't take them a million years to do so?

Because we will play as Shepard in ME3.

Exactly why they'll find another way.

And Shepard still has 100 years left on him.

[Rankao]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Vagula wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

What Dough84 said, attacking the Citadel gives them the advantage of controlling the mass relays and having unlimited information about the species they are about to exterminate - plus, they destroy the central government and military of the galaxy and effectively cripple it. It's not mandatory, but it's far easier than just parade in, guns blazing.

This makes no sense to me. Why couldn't they just travel manually and attack the Citadel with a suprise attack? I mean it's not too hard to hide in space and I doubt that galactic border patrol exists.

Because the galaxy has a 50, 000 light year radius, and the Citadel is not at the edge of the galaxy. It'd take a long time and a lot of resources.

Nor may it even be on the side they're on. 

(I don't think they surround the entire galaxy.)

All they need to do is gain access to One Relay and they can get to the citadel relatively quick. Likely the reapers already have full access to information about the current Milky Way Civilization. If I was Harbinger and I wanted to direct the reapers I would go after what appears the source of failure, the humans. If it was me I would ignore the Citadel all together and go after the home worlds of all of the Council species simultaneously. A simultaneous assault on all the homeworlds would result is the lost of most of the Council fleet. Then rejoin the reaper fleet to sweep the remaining fleet held up around the Citadel. 

On the Topic: 

Basically a real world metaphore for using the Citadel is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without the two bombing the US wouldn't have been able to get the Emperor to surrender. This would have resulted in a full scale land invasion resulting in massive casualties in both sides. Basically Imagine (Iraqi War + A****anastan) * 100. Thats the invasion of Japan. Unnecessary lost of resources and life. The reapers too wanted to avoid that so they go for the Citadel first. However since that Plan A(Activation of Citadel),Plan B(Sovereign manually activating the Citadel) , and Plan C(Harbinger building a human reaper(s) to activate the Citadel)  has failed they have to go with the unwanted Plan D which will cost the Reapers ALOT. 

[lord magnious]

You know, the third ME book has Cerberus creating a human Reaper (Well, really reaper add ons) But I've notice that every villian or point of interest in the books happens be the villian or point of interest in the game. So, if we really want a decent base for spectualtion, we might have to wait for the third ME book to released this summer.

Modifié par lord magnious, 13 février 2010 - 09:16 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Rankao wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Vagula wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

What Dough84 said, attacking the Citadel gives them the advantage of controlling the mass relays and having unlimited information about the species they are about to exterminate - plus, they destroy the central government and military of the galaxy and effectively cripple it. It's not mandatory, but it's far easier than just parade in, guns blazing.

This makes no sense to me. Why couldn't they just travel manually and attack the Citadel with a suprise attack? I mean it's not too hard to hide in space and I doubt that galactic border patrol exists.

Because the galaxy has a 50, 000 light year radius, and the Citadel is not at the edge of the galaxy. It'd take a long time and a lot of resources.

Nor may it even be on the side they're on. 

(I don't think they surround the entire galaxy.)

All they need to do is gain access to One Relay and they can get to the citadel relatively quick. . 

I know that, but that's not what we were discussing.

Anyway, I imagine one use of any well-known Relay and their presence becomes obvious, giving the other races time to prepare. Coupled with their exhausted state, already, depending on how far they flew through dark space.

Basically you have them:

1. Fly in and use the closest Relay, risking discovery and already fatigued. Took a long time.
2. They fly in, straight to the Citadel, completely exhausted. Took an even longer time.
3. Find another way, which is strongly hinted as something to do with Dark Energy, or Matter, forgot. Took no time, but Shepard will obviously foil their plan somehow.

Three is most likely due to logical and plot conveniences.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 février 2010 - 09:21 .

[Rankao]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Rankao wrote...


All they need to do is gain access to One Relay and they can get to the citadel relatively quick. . 

I know that, but that's not what we were discussing.

Anyway, I imagine one use of any well-known Relay and their presence becomes obvious, giving the other races time to prepare. Coupled with their exhausted state, already, depending on how far they flew through dark space.

well than... Yes. I concour. 

[Vagula]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Anyway, I imagine one use of any well-known Relay and their presence becomes obvious, giving the other races time to prepare. Coupled with their exhausted state, already, depending on how far they flew through dark space.

Basically you have them:

1. Fly in and use the closest Relay, risking discovery and already fatigued. Took a long time.
2. They fly in, straight to the Citadel, completely exhausted. Took an even longer time.
3. Find another way, which is strongly hinted as something to do with Dark Energy, or Matter, forgot. Took no time, but Shepard will obviously foil their plan somehow.

Three is most likely due to logical and plot conveniences.

Even if they had to use one relay it would only give a few minutes or hours to prepare. With thousands of Reapers they should be able to take the Citadel in minutes. After that they shut down all relays, paralyze the whole galaxy and start to kill the galaxy one planet at a time.

I think the Reaper IFF may be the key to victory because it could undermine the shutdown of mass relays which is probably the single reason why the Reapers have been so succesfull in the past.

Modifié par Vagula, 13 février 2010 - 09:31 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Vagula wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Anyway, I imagine one use of any well-known Relay and their presence becomes obvious, giving the other races time to prepare. Coupled with their exhausted state, already, depending on how far they flew through dark space.

Basically you have them:

1. Fly in and use the closest Relay, risking discovery and already fatigued. Took a long time.
2. They fly in, straight to the Citadel, completely exhausted. Took an even longer time.
3. Find another way, which is strongly hinted as something to do with Dark Energy, or Matter, forgot. Took no time, but Shepard will obviously foil their plan somehow.

Three is most likely due to logical and plot conveniences.

Even if they had to use one relay it would only give a few minutes or hours to prepare. With thousands of Reapers they should be able to take the Citadel in minutes. After that they shut down all relays, paralyze the whole galaxy and start to kill the galaxy one planet at a time.

I think the Reaper IFF may be the key to victory because it could undermine the shutdown of mass relays which is probably the single reason why the Reapers have been so succesfull in the past.

Main thing is getting to the Relay. From Dark Space to the Relay will exhaust them, and make them not ready for battle.

Depending on the Relay, it would take several hours. They may have time if they sent sensor buoys out into the reaches of space for further warning. But whatever they encounter along the way will slow them down.

But to the point. I very much doubt an all out war will be what defeats the Reapers. So far they have single largest 'fleet' we've seen, and they're ALL dreadnaught+ classed.

If there is a battle in ME3, it will be largely  for show, which I'm quite eagerly anticipating.

[Doug84]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Vagula wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

And what makes you think it didn't take them a million years to do so?

Because we will play as Shepard in ME3.

Exactly why they'll find another way.

And Shepard still has 100 years left on him.

You know... now I want to see a 150 year old Shepard trying to stop the reapers, constantly fighting off broken bones and forgetfulness

[KalReegar]

GtarTravis wrote...

I'm not exactly sure what "dark space" is, I'm assuming its just... REALLY far out in space. So the ending of ME2 might just be the Reapers traveling towards the galaxy using conventional means of propulsion... which takes a REALLY long time.

Dark space is the void between galaxies, often stretching for millions of light-years. There is nothing there. No stars, no planets. Nothing. Its a void of absolutely nothing.

Traversing it would take centuries.

[GnusmasTHX]

Doug84 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Vagula wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

And what makes you think it didn't take them a million years to do so?

Because we will play as Shepard in ME3.

Exactly why they'll find another way.

And Shepard still has 100 years left on him.

You know... now I want to see a 150 year old Shepard trying to stop the reapers, constantly fighting off broken bones and forgetfulness

It'd be like MGS4, in space!

Shepard, standing on a pile of husks: "What were we doing again?!"

Then he has crazy sex with a still-young Liara.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm still waiting to find out the motivation of the Reapers. It wasn't answered in ME1 nor is it answered in ME2. I need to finish a playthrough and side with Cerebus at the end. But from the last cutscene from darkspace... the races in the galaxy are f*****.