210 réponses à ce sujet

[ToJKa1]

Easy choice for me:

Warhero Vanguard that saved the hostages in BDtS and the refinery in Zorya: Save the city, people are more important than replacable hardware.

Ruthless Infiltrator that did the opposite: in long term keeping the colony re-colonizable is the better choice.

Either way, more reasons to hate batarians! Damn terrorists, each and every one of them

Not sure what my Survivor Soldier would choose, though..

[Myrmedus]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Saving the colony would result in a larger loss of life than letting it get nuked would. A lot of people here are thinking in the short term and not long term. Saving that colony damns that entire region of space. We're only shown one colony in the game. More than likely, there's dozens more. Alliance pulls out, Batarians come in to kill or capture many more people that were present in that single colony.

No it wouldn't, it specifically says in the example ALL colonies will be evaculated, not just the one single colony. They're not going to come and evacuate one colony but then leave the rest to die lol, if they were gonna do that they wouldn't bother evacuating ANYONE.

And it's decisions like this that make me wonder why people stick to playing strictly as a Paragon or a Renegade. Doing so leads to impracticalities that eventually will contradict their view of said side.

I don't, and most don't either. It just doesn't make any sense to choose to keep the industrial complex in this situation unless out of pure spite/greed. There's absolutely no moral backing for the Renegade choice in this situation, regardless of your perspective and perception of scope because the destruction of the spaceport doesn't lead to any lives being lost at all, now or henceforth.

However it is nice generally to see that the Paragon/Renegade archetypes have been 'bled over' a little bit in ME2, reflecting the 'shades of grey' feel. There are situations where the Renegade choice is definitely the right choice, even from a moral standpoint IMO - but in this situation there's honestly no case for the Renegade choice.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 février 2010 - 01:56 .

[SteelEagleShane]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I don't know who would want to live in a colony knowing that if the Batarians ever attacked their government will wipe out the civilians.

How about we put this in the proper context, if say an extremist group was going to launch a nuclear device at either a military base or your town, which would you rather they hit? Sure the town could be rebuilt and repopulated.. eventually (by idiots) or the base can go and people who have sworn their lives to protect the civilians would die as heroes.

Hmm.. yeah such a hard choice.

Incorrect analogy. The better one would be a choice between nuking the only link that town has to the outside world, it's industrial sector, and the very meaning for that town to exist. Or you nuke the town and kill all the people that would be doing the work to make the place work.

Neither is right, but trying to simplify it belies the complexity of the choice.

here is the complexity:

Kill civilians

Or 

Kill enlisted

Did you even do this side quest? The missile isn't heading for a military base.*Head against wall* You are in the military base. It is heading to the industrial area of teh city. You know what that means, right?

[tmp7704]

Incidentally, if you paid attention to the Volus on Illium who's playing the stock market, he provides additional insight. One which makes the choice even more complicated.

(civilian casualties have drastic effect on overall willingness to colonize. So trying to save existence of single colony by letting its people die to protect the industry can have negative effect on human colonies on the whole... but also vice-versa)

Modifié par tmp7704, 14 février 2010 - 01:50 .

[Jagri]

Evidently the Alliance was quite incapable of defending said colony so perhaps best course of action is to pull out.

[Gaudion]

tmp7704 wrote...

Best part of that mission is it's apparently bugged. Save the capital and the journal says you chose to save the industrial part. Save the industrial part and the journal says you chose to save the capital.

/facepalm

Noticed this myself and it's been bothering me because I don't know exactly which part is bugged. I know I chose the correct input during the mission and based on the reaction of the monitors, the residential area survived. But which part is the game interpreting correctly and which part is in error? The results of the mission or the journal?

As for the Paragon/Renegade discussion, there are two possible interpretations:

1. Paragon is "good" and Renegade is "evil". If that's your interpretation, the correct action is to save the people in the residential district, no questions ask. No morally sound person would sacrifice a city of innocents to save industry and commerce, regardless of the scope.

2. Paragon is "lawful" and Renegade is "chaotic". If this is your interpretation, then saving the spaceport is the correct action because it's what the Alliance at large would want you to do.

[Nightvision91]

Jagri wrote...

Evidently the Alliance was quite incapable of defending said colony so perhaps best course of action is to pull out.

Very true. As history shows Alliance is horrible at defending any colony from attacks.

[Myrmedus]

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I don't know who would want to live in a colony knowing that if the Batarians ever attacked their government will wipe out the civilians.

How about we put this in the proper context, if say an extremist group was going to launch a nuclear device at either a military base or your town, which would you rather they hit? Sure the town could be rebuilt and repopulated.. eventually (by idiots) or the base can go and people who have sworn their lives to protect the civilians would die as heroes.

Hmm.. yeah such a hard choice.

Incorrect analogy. The better one would be a choice between nuking the only link that town has to the outside world, it's industrial sector, and the very meaning for that town to exist. Or you nuke the town and kill all the people that would be doing the work to make the place work.

Neither is right, but trying to simplify it belies the complexity of the choice.

here is the complexity:

Kill civilians

Or 

Kill enlisted

Did you even do this side quest? The missile isn't heading for a military base.*Head against wall* You are in the military base. It is heading to the industrial area of teh city. You know what that means, right?

Again, an industrial sector can be rebuilt over time, human lives can't.

If the Alliance wouldn't evacuate the colony then there's really no choice at all, either destroy the city and kill all the colonists or destroy the industrial link and...kill all the colonists.

However, since the Alliance WILL evacuate the choice is quite simple: industry or human lives, money/power or people, easy road or hard road. There's no case for the Renegade to somehow be saving any amount of lives in this situation, unlike the decision at the end of ME1 for example.

[Schneidend]

ToJKa1 wrote...

Easy choice for me:

Warhero Vanguard that saved the hostages in BDtS and the refinery in Zorya: Save the city, people are more important than replacable hardware.

Ruthless Infiltrator that did the opposite: in long term keeping the colony re-colonizable is the better choice.

Either way, more reasons to hate batarians! Damn terrorists, each and every one of them

Not sure what my Survivor Soldier would choose, though..

ToJKa1 makes a good point. The real lesson here is that batarians suck and should be hated.

[Myrmedus]

Gaudion wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Best part of that mission is it's apparently bugged. Save the capital and the journal says you chose to save the industrial part. Save the industrial part and the journal says you chose to save the capital.

/facepalm

Noticed this myself and it's been bothering me because I don't know exactly which part is bugged. I know I chose the correct input during the mission and based on the reaction of the monitors, the residential area survived. But which part is the game interpreting correctly and which part is in error? The results of the mission or the journal?

As for the Paragon/Renegade discussion, there are two possible interpretations:

1. Paragon is "good" and Renegade is "evil". If that's your interpretation, the correct action is to save the people in the residential district, no questions ask. No morally sound person would sacrifice a city of innocents to save industry and commerce, regardless of the scope.

2. Paragon is "lawful" and Renegade is "chaotic". If this is your interpretation, then saving the spaceport is the correct action because it's what the Alliance at large would want you to do.

I believe that Paragon and Renegade are a mix of both depending on the situation to be honest.

[Unit-Alpha]

I thought it was a select and press A thing like most GUI things were so I accidentally let the residential area get blown up on one playthrough.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

this isnt my name wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...
And it's decisions like this that make me wonder why people stick to playing strictly as a Paragon or a Renegade. Doing so leads to impracticalities that eventually will contradict their view of said side.

*points at sig*

And some people wonder why I think this is a tough choice.

*reads sig*
Hard to do that especialy in ME1 either way soverign died, so the council was optinal, so you go wih your gut only to realise you sacraficed something for nothing.

 I'm not talking "go nuetral" or "do what first comes to mind," I say more people need to make decisions without thinking about what is paragon/renegade.
 
My gut instinct said "save the council, and Humanity will be hailed as heros." And that does, in fact, happen, but either way the council gets run by people who don't because in the *air quotes* "reapers." If I ever find that turian in a dark ally, my instincts will be "1st degree murder."

Back on topic.

[tmp7704]

Gaudion wrote...

Noticed this myself and it's been bothering me because I don't know exactly which part is bugged. I know I chose the correct input during the mission and based on the reaction of the monitors, the residential area survived. But which part is the game interpreting correctly and which part is in error? The results of the mission or the journal?

Yup, i don't know if it's just the journal text that's wrong, or if the game actually records the other choice in your save file. And on top of that if BioWare chooses to fix it, there's no way to tell if they decide to reverse the decision saved in the file, in attempt to "unscrew" the players affected by it, so... just frustrating because it's even harder to guess if maybe i should do the opposite of actual choice to have the intended choice recognized down the road, or what

[Jagri]

Conrad Verners wife was on that colony

Modifié par Jagri, 14 février 2010 - 01:57 .

[SteelEagleShane]

Myrmedus wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I don't know who would want to live in a colony knowing that if the Batarians ever attacked their government will wipe out the civilians.

How about we put this in the proper context, if say an extremist group was going to launch a nuclear device at either a military base or your town, which would you rather they hit? Sure the town could be rebuilt and repopulated.. eventually (by idiots) or the base can go and people who have sworn their lives to protect the civilians would die as heroes.

Hmm.. yeah such a hard choice.

Incorrect analogy. The better one would be a choice between nuking the only link that town has to the outside world, it's industrial sector, and the very meaning for that town to exist. Or you nuke the town and kill all the people that would be doing the work to make the place work.

Neither is right, but trying to simplify it belies the complexity of the choice.

here is the complexity:

Kill civilians

Or 

Kill enlisted

Did you even do this side quest? The missile isn't heading for a military base.*Head against wall* You are in the military base. It is heading to the industrial area of teh city. You know what that means, right?

Again, an industrial sector can be rebuilt over time, human lives can't.

If the Alliance wouldn't evacuate the colony then there's really no choice at all, either destroy the city and kill all the colonists or destroy the industrial link and...kill all the colonists.

However, since the Alliance WILL evacuate the choice is quite simple: industry or human lives, money/power or people, easy road or hard road. There's no case for the Renegade to somehow be saving any amount of lives in this situation, unlike the decision at the end of ME1 for example.

Yet again, not saying saving the industry over the civilians is the right choice. I believe both are valid. I just am a little annoyed to see people try to say this is about saving military lives/a military base over a town. That is NOT THE CASE. The town either suffers a massive loss of life but can be repopulated and brought back up to speed or suffers little loss of life and is evacuated/abandoned. Trying to say that this is about enlisted lives vs. civilians is patently untrue.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Jagri wrote...

Conrad Verners wife was on that colony

Wait, what? Seriously? I was almost ready to save the Industrial Complex, this changes everything.

...

If I wanted to blow up that colony, I'll wait til I'm SURE Conrad is there when it happens.

Modifié par SharpEdgeSoda, 14 février 2010 - 02:02 .

[Jagri]

No no just his wife earning the credits her husband uses to buy fake Alliance N7 Uniforms.

Modifié par Jagri, 14 février 2010 - 02:03 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...
Yeah, saving those people may be the nice thing to do, but isn't practical in the long run.

What good is a military if it is willing to kill its own people.

You're living in a fantasy.  Simply put.

No, I live in the USA where the military isn't going to let us get nuke so they can save a base.

[Schneidend]

Conrad's wife...This...is not acceptable. *The missile hits the residential area.*

Modifié par Schneidend, 14 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[SteelEagleShane]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...
Yeah, saving those people may be the nice thing to do, but isn't practical in the long run.

What good is a military if it is willing to kill its own people.

You're living in a fantasy.  Simply put.

No, I live in the USA where the military isn't going to let us get nuke so they can save a base.

The nuke is heading to an industrial area. Not a military BASE. The industrial sector includes the spaceport and, probably, all machinations of the industry on that planet. Without it, the colony is evacuated...not due to DANGER, but because it can't function.

This. Is. Not. About. Saving. Military. Lives/Bases. Over. Civilians.

[RhythmlessNinja]

lol, Yeah, lets see here *sits back in chair takes a sip of coffee* Hmm...should I hit this button save lots of lives & force them to leave. I'm sure they'd rather leave than be killed. Orrrrr, should i hit this other switch, and just mass murder the residents to help out the military..hmm could be children down there. I guess I might add that the alliance isn't even helping me at all with the collectors. Not to mention has no trust in me what so ever aside from Anderson. Eh...*blows up spaceport*

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I don't know who would want to live in a colony knowing that if the Batarians ever attacked their government will wipe out the civilians.

How about we put this in the proper context, if say an extremist group was going to launch a nuclear device at either a military base or your town, which would you rather they hit? Sure the town could be rebuilt and repopulated.. eventually (by idiots) or the base can go and people who have sworn their lives to protect the civilians would die as heroes.

Hmm.. yeah such a hard choice.

Incorrect analogy. The better one would be a choice between nuking the only link that town has to the outside world, it's industrial sector, and the very meaning for that town to exist. Or you nuke the town and kill all the people that would be doing the work to make the place work.

Neither is right, but trying to simplify it belies the complexity of the choice.

here is the complexity:

Kill civilians

Or 

Kill enlisted

Did you even do this side quest? The missile isn't heading for a military base.*Head against wall* You are in the military base. It is heading to the industrial area of teh city. You know what that means, right?

I did do the mission and it stated that you're either killing colonists or alliance employees.

[AddoExAtrum]

tmp7704 wrote...

Gaudion wrote...

Noticed this myself and it's been bothering me because I don't know exactly which part is bugged. I know I chose the correct input during the mission and based on the reaction of the monitors, the residential area survived. But which part is the game interpreting correctly and which part is in error? The results of the mission or the journal?

Yup, i don't know if it's just the journal text that's wrong, or if the game actually records the other choice in your save file. And on top of that if BioWare chooses to fix it, there's no way to tell if they decide to reverse the decision saved in the file, in attempt to "unscrew" the players affected by it, so... just frustrating because it's even harder to guess if maybe i should do the opposite of actual choice to have the intended choice recognized down the road, or what

Or maybe your just not reading the 2 tabs at the bottom? One says Save the Spaceport the other says Save the Capitol.... It doesnt matter which one you pick at the top but which tab you click on at the bottom....

It is the only quest set up this way thou which I could see that being a little confusing to those of us who tend to click before we read or just press A through everything...

Back to the topic thou The Alliance only loses 8 cruisers in saving the council. While with a crew of around 300 each this is close to 2400 people. If that "significantly" weakens the Alliance then we are SERIOUSLY understaffed in the military department.

Don't get me wrong every life is valuable but 8 cruisers should not be a huge portion of our intergalatic fleet. Especially if we are colonizing dozens of other planets as the story line suggests. Even the council states "The Terminius systems are outside council space. The humans knew that when they decided to colonize it." If we are seriously stretched THAT thin we arent going to waste time sending ships to protect remote colonies. Hell dozens of colonies are being abducted by the Collectors and all they do is send a single soldier to oversee the construction of 4 anti ship turrets at a single colony?

Save the people and screw the industry. The alliance probably wouldnt even recolonize if you did save the spaceport. To high risk an area ya know?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...
Yeah, saving those people may be the nice thing to do, but isn't practical in the long run.

What good is a military if it is willing to kill its own people.

You're living in a fantasy.  Simply put.

No, I live in the USA where the military isn't going to let us get nuke so they can save a base.

The nuke is heading to an industrial area. Not a military BASE. .

w/e 
A military industrial site, same thing. Either you kill civilians or you kill alliance servicemen.

[AddoExAtrum]

Schneidend wrote...

Conrad's wife...This...is not acceptable. *The missile hits the residential area.*

You must be one of those people who shot Conrad in the foot aren't you?

>.> I punched him myself.... didn't think he was worth the bullet