210 réponses à ce sujet

[Myrmedus]

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

snip.

Incorrect analogy. The better one would be a choice between nuking the only link that town has to the outside world, it's industrial sector, and the very meaning for that town to exist. Or you nuke the town and kill all the people that would be doing the work to make the place work.

Neither is right, but trying to simplify it belies the complexity of the choice.

here is the complexity:

Kill civilians

Or 

Kill enlisted

Did you even do this side quest? The missile isn't heading for a military base.*Head against wall* You are in the military base. It is heading to the industrial area of teh city. You know what that means, right?

Again, an industrial sector can be rebuilt over time, human lives can't.

If the Alliance wouldn't evacuate the colony then there's really no choice at all, either destroy the city and kill all the colonists or destroy the industrial link and...kill all the colonists.

However, since the Alliance WILL evacuate the choice is quite simple: industry or human lives, money/power or people, easy road or hard road. There's no case for the Renegade to somehow be saving any amount of lives in this situation, unlike the decision at the end of ME1 for example.

Yet again, not saying saving the industry over the civilians is the right choice. I believe both are valid. I just am a little annoyed to see people try to say this is about saving military lives/a military base over a town. That is NOT THE CASE. The town either suffers a massive loss of life but can be repopulated and brought back up to speed or suffers little loss of life and is evacuated/abandoned. Trying to say that this is about enlisted lives vs. civilians is patently untrue.

How does it suffer a little loss of life? There's NO loss of life involved everyone is evacuated? Or do you mean from the nuke actually landing on the spaceport? Regardless even if there is a small loss of life it's exactly how you say: small losses vs. large losses.

And no I don't think it's enlisted vs. civilians I think it's human lives. industrial/commercial interests. This is from someone who let the Council die, so you can believe me when I say that enlisted lives aren't less important than civilians. Having said that I made the end-ME1 choice based upon numbers anyway.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[Jagri]

It is evident the military doesn't have enough resources to protect the colony despite how much funds they put into it. Should the colonist have to suffer for lack of preperation of the System Alliance? For that matter shouldn't launching missiles be outside the capability of a hostile group without special codes and keys?

Modifié par Jagri, 14 février 2010 - 02:17 .

[SharpEdgeSoda]

AddoExAtrum wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Conrad's wife...This...is not acceptable. *The missile hits the residential area.*

You must be one of those people who shot Conrad in the foot aren't you?

>.> I punched him myself.... didn't think he was worth the bullet

I kicked him in the nuts, and then he started a charity. Remind me to do that more often to people in order solve my problems.

[SteelEagleShane]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I don't know who would want to live in a colony knowing that if the Batarians ever attacked their government will wipe out the civilians.

How about we put this in the proper context, if say an extremist group was going to launch a nuclear device at either a military base or your town, which would you rather they hit? Sure the town could be rebuilt and repopulated.. eventually (by idiots) or the base can go and people who have sworn their lives to protect the civilians would die as heroes.

Hmm.. yeah such a hard choice.

Incorrect analogy. The better one would be a choice between nuking the only link that town has to the outside world, it's industrial sector, and the very meaning for that town to exist. Or you nuke the town and kill all the people that would be doing the work to make the place work.

Neither is right, but trying to simplify it belies the complexity of the choice.

here is the complexity:

Kill civilians

Or 

Kill enlisted

Did you even do this side quest? The missile isn't heading for a military base.*Head against wall* You are in the military base. It is heading to the industrial area of teh city. You know what that means, right?

I did do the mission and it stated that you're either killing colonists or alliance employees.

You are destroying the industrial sector. This does include the spaceport. But quick logic qustion for you:


Why would the military build a base in a colony and on the moon, and why would they leave the moon base with nukes poorly defended yet stock their so-called base on the colony to the point that losing it destroys the viability of the colony?

The employee references are because in industrial sectors, people work. They are in the factories and working in the space port, and considering that it seems as though most people were in the residential area likely due to the fact that they were told of the situation on the moon, the remaining employees are government employees. Not necessarily military.

If you let the town die, the people are dead and the colony has to be repopulated from scratch. If you let the industrial sector be destroyed, then the colony is no longer viable and the people are evacuated because the Alliance won't defend a colony without it being viable. That is the choice: People or Colony. NOT military versus civilian. That is untrue.

[Gaudion]

AddoExAtrum wrote...

Or maybe your just not reading the 2 tabs at the bottom? One says Save the Spaceport the other says Save the Capitol.... It doesnt matter which one you pick at the top but which tab you click on at the bottom....

It is the only quest set up this way thou which I could see that being a little confusing to those of us who tend to click before we read or just press A through everything...

No, I double and triple-checked. I absolutely finished the mission the way I intended to, by blowing up the spaceport and saving the residential area. The journal still records it as having done the opposite.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

You notice that neither option gains any additional Renegade or Paragon points. I think BioWare know this is not exactly a bad guy decision to sacrifice lives, and it isn't exactly a good guy decision to sacrifice a colony's standing.

[Schneidend]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

AddoExAtrum wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Conrad's wife...This...is not acceptable. *The missile hits the residential area.*

You must be one of those people who shot Conrad in the foot aren't you?

>.> I punched him myself.... didn't think he was worth the bullet

I kicked him in the nuts, and then he started a charity. Remind me to do that more often to people in order solve my problems.

I wasn't really paying attention when I did this quest, but I shot him in the foot and then did some stuff that caused him to think he "done good" and then leave. I also got a discount at that weapon shop.

Methinks I'll need to actually pay attention next time I play my import guy instead of focusing solely on impressing the bartending matriarch to attempt to tap some millenial ass.

[serjwolf]

this isnt my name wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

This decision is easy. The military crap can always be rebuilt. If you let thousands of people get blown up, however, nobody is going to want to sign up to repopulate that colony.

Blowing up the industry would stop people repopulating the colony, this would encourage more bartarian attacks.

but will bioware go into this?  NO
because you can see how lazily they had your imported decisions impact your game in ME2

wow thanks for the e-mail mr. Bahttia...

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Gaudion wrote...

AddoExAtrum wrote...

Or maybe your just not reading the 2 tabs at the bottom? One says Save the Spaceport the other says Save the Capitol.... It doesnt matter which one you pick at the top but which tab you click on at the bottom....

It is the only quest set up this way thou which I could see that being a little confusing to those of us who tend to click before we read or just press A through everything...

No, I double and triple-checked. I absolutely finished the mission the way I intended to, by blowing up the spaceport and saving the residential area. The journal still records it as having done the opposite.

FROM THE WIKI!


WARNING: This mission is reported to suffer from a glitch which results in the game's journal logging the OPPOSITE choice to the one actually made by the player. This is due to unusual button-mapping: Regardless of which location is highlighted in the menu, on the xBox pressing (A) saves the Industrial Area, while pressing ( saves the Residential District, and on the PC selecting "Save the Industrial Area" saves the Residential District and vice versa. However, while the journal lists the opposite area as being saved, the mission report lists the option chosen by the player.
Retrieved from "http://masseffect.wi...ssiles_Launched"

[Myrmedus]

[quote]SteelEagleShane wrote...

[quote]Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

[quote]SteelEagleShane wrote...

[quote]Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

[quote]SteelEagleShane wrote...

[quote]Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

snip.[/quote]
snip.
[/quote]

snip.
[/quote]

I did do the mission and it stated that you're either killing colonists or alliance employees.
[/quote]
You are destroying the industrial sector. This does include the spaceport. But quick logic qustion for you:


Why
would the military build a base in a colony and on the moon, and why
would they leave the moon base with nukes poorly defended yet stock
their so-called base on the colony to the point that losing it destroys
the viability of the colony?

The employee references are because
in industrial sectors, people work. They are in the factories and
working in the space port, and considering that it seems as though most
people were in the residential area likely due to the fact that they
were told of the situation on the moon, the remaining employees are
government employees. Not necessarily military.

If you let the
town die, the people are dead and the colony has to be repopulated from
scratch. If you let the industrial sector be destroyed, then the colony
is no longer viable and the people are evacuated because the Alliance
won't defend a colony without it being viable. That is the choice:
People or Colony. NOT military versus civilian. That is untrue.[/quote]

Not only that but if the people on the planet's surface knew of the imminent terrorist attack a more sparsely populated area like the industrial sector can be evacuated 100x times as fast as the colony, meaning you may end up actually killing noone or at least very few people if you choose to save the colony.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[Randy1012]

For a Paragon, civilian lives should always take precdence over government materiel. Humanity is the Alliance. Without those people, there would be no Alliance. Consciously choosing to let them die would be a betrayal of your oath as a soldier.

For a Renegade, **** it. Your top priority is to get the galaxy ready to take on the Reapers. The Alliance is going to need every factory and shipyard it's got. Let the people die; the Alliance could always send more faceless colonists to take over where the others left off.

That said, I'd fully support the Paragon option. Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the technology.

[SuperVaderMan]

The way I look at it, by saving the colony, more people end up supporting the Alliance. The more people supporting the Alliance, the more people that are willing to join. The more people in the Alliance, the better chance I have against the Reaper threat.



I play a paragon, but for situations like these, whichever helps against the reapers and promotes galactic cooperation (destroyed collector base, 'cause Cerberus would make humans dominant with it), THAT'S the choice I make.

[SteelEagleShane]

Myrmedus wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

snip.

Incorrect analogy. The better one would be a choice between nuking the only link that town has to the outside world, it's industrial sector, and the very meaning for that town to exist. Or you nuke the town and kill all the people that would be doing the work to make the place work.

Neither is right, but trying to simplify it belies the complexity of the choice.

here is the complexity:

Kill civilians

Or 

Kill enlisted

Did you even do this side quest? The missile isn't heading for a military base.*Head against wall* You are in the military base. It is heading to the industrial area of teh city. You know what that means, right?

Again, an industrial sector can be rebuilt over time, human lives can't.

If the Alliance wouldn't evacuate the colony then there's really no choice at all, either destroy the city and kill all the colonists or destroy the industrial link and...kill all the colonists.

However, since the Alliance WILL evacuate the choice is quite simple: industry or human lives, money/power or people, easy road or hard road. There's no case for the Renegade to somehow be saving any amount of lives in this situation, unlike the decision at the end of ME1 for example.

Yet again, not saying saving the industry over the civilians is the right choice. I believe both are valid. I just am a little annoyed to see people try to say this is about saving military lives/a military base over a town. That is NOT THE CASE. The town either suffers a massive loss of life but can be repopulated and brought back up to speed or suffers little loss of life and is evacuated/abandoned. Trying to say that this is about enlisted lives vs. civilians is patently untrue.

How does it suffer a little loss of life? There's NO loss of life involved everyone is evacuated? Or do you mean from the nuke actually landing on the spaceport? Regardless even if there is a small loss of life it's exactly how you say: small losses vs. large losses.

And no I don't think it's enlisted vs. civilians I think it's human lives. industrial/commercial interests. This is from someone who let the Council die, so you can believe me when I say that enlisted lives aren't less important than civilians. Having said that I made the end-ME1 choice based upon numbers anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you said. Like I have said numerous times, I don't think that saving the town is less valid than saving the industrial sector. However, I will disagree with the simple idea that it is small losses versus large losses, though that is half of it. It is small losses and no more colony versus large losses but a continuing colony.

[Myrmedus]

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

snip.

snip.

snip.

snip.

Yet again, not saying saving the industry over the civilians is the right choice. I believe both are valid. I just am a little annoyed to see people try to say this is about saving military lives/a military base over a town. That is NOT THE CASE. The town either suffers a massive loss of life but can be repopulated and brought back up to speed or suffers little loss of life and is evacuated/abandoned. Trying to say that this is about enlisted lives vs. civilians is patently untrue.

How does it suffer a little loss of life? There's NO loss of life involved everyone is evacuated? Or do you mean from the nuke actually landing on the spaceport? Regardless even if there is a small loss of life it's exactly how you say: small losses vs. large losses.

And no I don't think it's enlisted vs. civilians I think it's human lives. industrial/commercial interests. This is from someone who let the Council die, so you can believe me when I say that enlisted lives aren't less important than civilians. Having said that I made the end-ME1 choice based upon numbers anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you said. Like I have said numerous times, I don't think that saving the town is less valid than saving the industrial sector. However, I will disagree with the simple idea that it is small losses versus large losses, though that is half of it. It is small losses and no more colony versus large losses but a continuing colony.

That's the thing though: it's not no more colony if you choose the spaceport, it's no more colony for awhile.

In addition, if you nuke the colony itself then that's pretty much no more colony for awhile aswell. The colony would lack the population to actively sustain itself and it wouldn't be possible to repopulate it for years due to nuclear fallout. You'd have to erect an entire new colony for people to live in which would arguably take even longer.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 février 2010 - 02:30 .

[AddoExAtrum]

serjwolf wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

This decision is easy. The military crap can always be rebuilt. If you let thousands of people get blown up, however, nobody is going to want to sign up to repopulate that colony.

Blowing up the industry would stop people repopulating the colony, this would encourage more bartarian attacks.

but will bioware go into this?  NO
because you can see how lazily they had your imported decisions impact your game in ME2

wow thanks for the e-mail mr. Bahttia...

psh email? Hell when you import a character whether you picked Anderson for the council or not you can CHANGE IT on your import. Just say the other guy got picked and thats how it turns out.

[SteelEagleShane]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...
Yeah, saving those people may be the nice thing to do, but isn't practical in the long run.

What good is a military if it is willing to kill its own people.

You're living in a fantasy.  Simply put.

No, I live in the USA where the military isn't going to let us get nuke so they can save a base.

The nuke is heading to an industrial area. Not a military BASE. .

w/e 
A military industrial site, same thing. Either you kill civilians or you kill alliance servicemen.

fsdahkvbgsfvdlhabbgsb It wasn't a military industrial site. IT was an INDUSTRIAL SITE. Imagine for a second that Pittsburgh was divided into two areas for this thought experiment: Airport and industry areas and then the residential area. That is what the choice was. Yes, you nuke the industrial areas and kill government employees. Doesn't mean you were killing servicemen. It means you killed government employees and you destroyed the city's industry. In this scenario, destroying Pitt's industries means everyone leaves and Pitt is emptied. Letting the residential area get hit leads to a horrific loss of life, but the city can be repopulated and the industries that would keep her afloat are intact. Neither is right. Both choices suck. You just have to decide what is better: The future of this colony or the future of her people.

[SarEnyaDor]

Well, answer this question - is it the government's job to protect the people, or the people's job to protect the government?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

SteelEagleShane wrote...
Imagine for a second that Pittsburgh was divided into two areas

Bomb both areas

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SteelEagleShane wrote...
Imagine for a second that Pittsburgh was divided into two areas

Bomb both areas

[SteelEagleShane]

[quote]Myrmedus wrote...

[quote]SteelEagleShane wrote...

[quote]Myrmedus wrote...

[quote]SteelEagleShane wrote...

[quote]Myrmedus wrote...

[quote]SteelEagleShane wrote...

[quote]Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

[quote]SteelEagleShane wrote...

[quote]Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

snip.[/quote]
snip.
[/quote]

snip.
[/quote]
snip.

[/quote]


Yet again, not saying saving the industry over the civilians is the right choice. I believe both are valid. I just am a little annoyed to see people try to say this is about saving military lives/a military base over a town. That is NOT THE CASE. The town either suffers a massive loss of life but can be repopulated and brought back up to speed or suffers little loss of life and is evacuated/abandoned. Trying to say that this is about enlisted lives vs. civilians is patently untrue.
[/quote]

How does it suffer a little loss of life? There's NO loss of life involved everyone is evacuated? Or do you mean from the nuke actually landing on the spaceport? Regardless even if there is a small loss of life it's exactly how you say: small losses vs. large losses.

And no I don't think it's enlisted vs. civilians I think it's human lives. industrial/commercial interests. This is from someone who let the Council die, so you can believe me when I say that enlisted lives aren't less important than civilians. Having said that I made the end-ME1 choice based upon numbers anyway.

[/quote]


I'm not disagreeing with most of what you said. Like I have said numerous times, I don't think that saving the town is less valid than saving the industrial sector. However, I will disagree with the simple idea that it is small losses versus large losses, though that is half of it. It is small losses and no more colony versus large losses but a continuing colony.[/quote]

That's the thing though: it's not no more colony if you choose the spaceport, it's no more colony for awhile.

In addition, if you nuke the colony itself then that's pretty much no more colony for awhile aswell. The colony would lack the population to actively sustain itself and it wouldn't be possible to repopulate it for years due to nuclear fallout. You'd have to erect an entire new colony for people to live in which would arguably take even longer.

[/quote]

We can terraform planets to an extent in ME and, combined with the advances in medical technology as well as the ability to create isolated structures like prefab, the chances of a quicker recolonization with the industry intact is higher than it would be if you had to first evacuate people, come back to the colony later, put those people back down there, and rebuild the industries.


Not only for those reasons, but because the Alliance would probably dislike the idea of having to rebuild the industries from scratch just to get the colony back up to speed once the people get back. If industries are nuked, the people are still taken out. The likelyhood of the colony being recolonized does not really increase, because chances are that most of the colonists would likely choose to be diverted to new colonies instead of waiting.

I am not saying that choosing to save the industry is actually better: Personally, I wouldn't want to recolonize a place that had been nuked and it may/may not take longer. I just dislike people trying to say that this choice is easy peezy lemon squeezy. It isn't. The colony is ****ed and so are her people, each choice just bones them differently.

[Cyvian]

Female Reporter:
Commander Shepard, how do you justify destroying a billion-heavy infrastructure only to save a few hundred colonists who can be easily replaced ?

Colonists:
Screw you, Lady !

Shepard:
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Tyraelis]

I'd say losing the spaceport complex is the wrong solution; I don't see why the colonists could not be messaged or warned by the crew of the Normandy.

[Ulicus]

SteelEagleShane: Ouch. I haven't seen someone repeatedly hit their head against a brick wall like that in a long time.

I'm standing by with frozen peas.

[SteelEagleShane]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Well, answer this question - is it the government's job to protect the people, or the people's job to protect the government?

ASk an Alliance individual, who had already failed at their jobs. I was Cerebrus. When I choose to save the people, it was because I didn't want innocents to die and better to have to recolonize than be dead. When I chose to save the industry, it was because it was a human outpost in the Terminus that had been attacked by Batarians and, Alliance or not, I wanted it to stick out like a middle finger from which humanity would eventually spring forth and **** the damned aliens.

[SteelEagleShane]

Ulicus wrote...

SteelEagleShane: Ouch. I haven't seen someone repeatedly hit their head against a brick wall like that in a long time.

I'm standing by with frozen peas.

I know, I have a really nasty bruise and I can't spell. By the way, I miss the elevators. Kill a spider instead?