107 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Closet? hahaha! Not really! I do love Zevy. I am partial to Alistair. That doesn't stop me from adoring the kinky elf and his quirks as well. Believe me, it pains me to break up with him if I'm playing a character that must do so. And in some playthroughs, namely the dwarf ones, Zev is the only man for my girl. (We both know why....that kiss......melt). it's one big reason I dislike Wynne. She refuses to offer her magical bosom up for him to cry on. I wish i could order her to do so. Stupid old bat.

I really hate the fact that certain individuals can't get past his sexuality, ignoring the many other aspects of him. He is a complex character, and he does possess a very interesting morality. Looking at what he approves of and disapproves of in certain quests, one can see that he does have a heart and does find certain things really morally objectionable. And he is fatalistically loyal.

*grin* Teasing you!  And yes, I agree.  It drives me crazy that people write him off without giving the characte a lot more credit to the depth that is really there.  I can understand someone not liking him, but usually the reasons are because they never got to know the character and just hate what is on the surface. 

Yep. No matter what manner of relationship you pursue with him, Zevran is always full of surprises. Just when you think he is one way, he does something that makes you think "huh? Really? No way...I would have never thought..."

One example : Honnleath, Wilhelms basement, Kitty and the little girl. You get good approval with him for saving the little girl from the demon. From some of his other banter, I've come to the conclusion that the "cold blooded assassin" has a soft spot when it comes to kids. He is not a totally ruthless, cold hearted murderer that people seem to think he is. He also dislikes slavery and exploitation of the downtrodden and helpless.

What was interesting for me, is how many times he approved of choices that gained approval with Alistair, leliana, and Wynne, who are considered the "good" aligned companions. Of course, those who hate him wouldn't discover this much, since you have to have him along, and actually talk to him occasionally. Gasp. In one playthrough where I was being "evil" I had to leave zev behind for several quests because my evil choices would have got me a pretty nasty approval drop with him.

When I actually get to my male PC playthrough, it will be with full intent of romancing Zevran, because leliana and Morrigan just don't really interest me much. Though I'll shag Morrigan for the achievement.

[Addai]

We're not talking about a romance with Zevran. I find the character as interesting on a friend run-through.



Whatever... to each his own. I do think Skadi's criticism is not directed at you, rather at the OP. I mean, look at the thread title for Andraste's sake. You can at least articulate something. I do think you are missing out in terms of taking advantage of rogue abilities, judging by what you've posted. It's probably my favorite class. I'm running a sword and shield character a.t.m. and I find it hard not to be impatient with how tedious and ineffective it is, being more used to DW rogue.

[Helios969]

Addai67 wrote...

We're not talking about a romance with Zevran. I find the character as interesting on a friend run-through.

Whatever... to each his own. I do think Skadi's criticism is not directed at you, rather at the OP. I mean, look at the thread title for Andraste's sake. You can at least articulate something. I do think you are missing out in terms of taking advantage of rogue abilities, judging by what you've posted. It's probably my favorite class. I'm running a sword and shield character a.t.m. and I find it hard not to be impatient with how tedious and ineffective it is, being more used to DW rogue.

I'm not missing out on rogue abilities.  That's why Leliana is always in my party.  I'll admit I usually do not play rogues, I'm actually do so for the first time in this game with my current playthrough.  A Dwarven female rogue from Dust Town.  The thing is, because of my tactics (or lack of) I just play my character as if she were a warrior.  Probably, mostly, defeats the purpose.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

We're not talking about a romance with Zevran. I find the character as interesting on a friend run-through.

Whatever... to each his own. I do think Skadi's criticism is not directed at you, rather at the OP. I mean, look at the thread title for Andraste's sake. You can at least articulate something. I do think you are missing out in terms of taking advantage of rogue abilities, judging by what you've posted. It's probably my favorite class. I'm running a sword and shield character a.t.m. and I find it hard not to be impatient with how tedious and ineffective it is, being more used to DW rogue.

Agreed there. I really don't like playing warriors. I found it tedious and lacking compared to a rogue or mage. I did it for the mastery achievement. In future playthroughs, I shall leave the sword and shielding to Alistair, he does it so well. And he looks better in the heavy armor, anyway.

My posts were directed at people who barely conceal their contempt for Zevy simply because his sexual preferences are highly flexible and broad. These same people have little objection to the same scenario with Leliana. Double standards, and highly immature. To hate a character without totally exploring their whole story/attitude towards things is shallow and silly. Maybe after they have actually explored a character beyond the simple, first shot dialogue, then maybe I will take their opinions seriously.

[Helios969]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

We're not talking about a romance with Zevran. I find the character as interesting on a friend run-through.

Whatever... to each his own. I do think Skadi's criticism is not directed at you, rather at the OP. I mean, look at the thread title for Andraste's sake. You can at least articulate something. I do think you are missing out in terms of taking advantage of rogue abilities, judging by what you've posted. It's probably my favorite class. I'm running a sword and shield character a.t.m. and I find it hard not to be impatient with how tedious and ineffective it is, being more used to DW rogue.

Agreed there. I really don't like playing warriors. I found it tedious and lacking compared to a rogue or mage. I did it for the mastery achievement. In future playthroughs, I shall leave the sword and shielding to Alistair, he does it so well. And he looks better in the heavy armor, anyway.

My posts were directed at people who barely conceal their contempt for Zevy simply because his sexual preferences are highly flexible and broad. These same people have little objection to the same scenario with Leliana. Double standards, and highly immature. To hate a character without totally exploring their whole story/attitude towards things is shallow and silly. Maybe after they have actually explored a character beyond the simple, first shot dialogue, then maybe I will take their opinions seriously.

And you think there are not women on this forum who hold a similar attitude about Leliana?

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

And you think there are not women on this forum who hold a similar attitude about Leliana?

Actually, I think most people who recoil from Leliana do so because they talk to her and get to know her.  Her enjoyment of her old life only is apparent once you get to know her, and learning that she used torture and seduction and murder is a bit chilling as well.  She sees herself as similar to Zevran, though he only agreed after she told him she at least tried to make her kills clean.

So the difference is, if you spend the time getting to know both of the characters, and what I mean by that is not being rude or disrespectful but at the same time not just answering for maximum approval, you have a good chance of learning that what they say initially and how they present themselves actually is far different than what is going on beneath the surface.

Edit: And a big part of the rogue's ability is the MASSIVE damage they do to single targets.  If you don't have them built and set up to do that, you're missing out on a  huge part of their abilities.

Second edit: Actually, the party banter I refer to above is really kind of chiling for many reasons.  Zevran refers to the marks as "it" and they both talk about loving the hunt.  Zevran tells her that "it" deserves a clean kill, and Leliana tells him she would do a clean kill whenever possible (which implies, for her, it wasn't).  Keep in mind, he was an assassin, he wasn't after information.  SHE, however, was a spy -- she needed to get information from her targets.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 février 2010 - 05:21 .

[FierachEredasSoulchiou]

"Hey! There are women who hate Leliana because she can go girl-on-girl" is a rather pathetic attempt at excusing yourself for hating Zev because YOU don't like the sound of a gay relationship.

That said, Zev is an excellent DW rogue, built for DPS and backstabbing, much better then Leliana, who's naturally outfitted to be an archer, and dealing damage at ranged.

Modifié par FierachEredasSoulchiou, 14 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

And you think there are not women on this forum who hold a similar attitude about Leliana?

Actually, I think most people who recoil from Leliana do so because they talk to her and get to know her.  Her enjoyment of her old life only is apparent once you get to know her, and learning that she used torture and seduction and murder is a bit chilling as well.  She sees herself as similar to Zevran, though he only agreed after she told him she at least tried to make her kills clean.

So the difference is, if you spend the time getting to know both of the characters, and what I mean by that is not being rude or disrespectful but at the same time not just answering for maximum approval, you have a good chance of learning that what they say initially and how they present themselves actually is far different than what is going on beneath the surface.

Edit: And a big part of the rogue's ability is the MASSIVE damage they do to single targets.  If you don't have them built and set up to do that, you're missing out on a  huge part of their abilities.

Off topic I realize, but how do you go about setting them up and then utilizing them to harness their abilities most effectively.

[Sabriana]

Well, I do find her clingy and needy, and I don't really trust her in the beginning. After doing her quest, I question her morals even more, but my PC is able to keep her on the 'good' path.

But I do not hate her. I also don't overly like her, my PC is neutral toward her for the most part. Her back-story is not as touching as Zevran's, mostly because it was her own choices that got her to the point of having to flee Orlais.

But she is trying to redeem herself, say people.

Well, isn't that exactly what Zevran is trying to do? Change his path? What do people expect, that the does a complete flip-about, chucking the only things he ever knew, in a mere instant? The path of change is long and tortuous, especially for an abused and tortured ex-slave who never had the chance to make a choice - any choice for himself.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Helios969 wrote...



And you think there are not women on this forum who hold a similar attitude about Leliana?

So far, I am yet to see a thread entitled "Ewww, that lezbo bard keeps hitting on me, i want to kill her". Nor have I seen any posts where females are ragging on leliana because of her sexuality, posting thing like "oh, i want to kill leliana because she's a dirty carpet munching slimy assassin". I'm sure there are one or two posts like that. But I have never seen them, and I've seen plenty of leli hate threads/posts.

The complaints about leliana are mostly due to her habit of "stealth love". In otherwords, where suddenly, you find yourself in a relationship with her when you had no intention of pursuing one, nor did you initiate it. leliana's dialogue chouices are veiled and tricky, and chosing a seemingly innocent/non sexual/non romantic option will end up her wanting to get in your tent.

In all the rants I've seen on leliana, they are due to her character points (her seeming obsessiveness and stalkerishness, her religous behavior, her frivolity, her liking the manipulation and mind games involved in being a bard, the hypocrisy of it, her rather ignorant views on elves and slavery, so on). Her sexuality as being offensive rarely comes up.

In damned near of the Zevran hate threads, the first thing that comes up is his sexuality first before you even get to the assassin part. This thread refers to him as "the gay elf". Right there, the title tells me that Zevran, that "gay elf" is despised because he is "gay". Most of the Zevran haters bring it up first, or excessively, without going into arguements of character (he's an assassin who liked his job, he flirts shamelessly with just about anything that walks, his lax attitude towards assassination and murder for pay, ect). If people argued those points and left his sexuality out of it, I might be willing to take them seriously.

But it doesn't happen often enough. Further more, the OP couldn't even be bothered to remember or use his name, instead, using a label "gay elf" as opposed to "Zevran". had the op titled the thread "Zevran betrayed me, is thios supposed to happen", then I would probably not be annoyed, and my guess of his age and maturity level would probably be higher.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Well, I do find her clingy and needy, and I don't really trust her in the beginning. After doing her quest, I question her morals even more, but my PC is able to keep her on the 'good' path.
But I do not hate her. I also don't overly like her, my PC is neutral toward her for the most part. Her back-story is not as touching as Zevran's, mostly because it was her own choices that got her to the point of having to flee Orlais.
But she is trying to redeem herself, say people.
Well, isn't that exactly what Zevran is trying to do? Change his path? What do people expect, that the does a complete flip-about, chucking the only things he ever knew, in a mere instant? The path of change is long and tortuous, especially for an abused and tortured ex-slave who never had the chance to make a choice - any choice for himself.

It's a good point.  Leliana escaped from prison, ran, took refuge in the Chantry, and had been there for 2 years. She had had a lot of time to come to terms with her life.  Zevran was on a mad suicide attempt, had never known another life, had been raised to be one thing, and yet is supposed to be a puppy hugger immediately?  The fact that he has a lot of humanity underneath it all he considers a bit of a failing, but it's there, and it shows at very unexpected times.

[Helios969]

Oh, the double standards. Leliana is as much a product of her environment as Zev. In fact, it is a very important theme of each companion in the party. Each companion is shaped by their pasts. What I see between the two in dispute here is one is trying to reform, the other is quite proud of his ability to sneak up and stab someone in the back. And if I'm biased toward Leliana, maybe, I don't know, it has something to do with the fact that Zev TRIED TO KILL ME! First impressions and all that. And then later, assuming I don't kiss his butt, he tries it again. And let me just say, if they were both male characters or their genders were reversed, I would retain the same attitude.

[Sabriana]

Actually, he doesn't try to kill the PC. But you only find that out later, if you give him the time of day. And no, you don't have to cater to him to get high enough approval. And no again, he's not really all that proud, but the player won't find that out unless they at least talk to him.

He tries to explain why he likes being an assassin because that's all he knows. That's what he's been bought and bred for through physical, psychological and sexual abuse and torture. Yes, sexual abuse. How else would a 7 year old boy learn a massage technique fit for a wh*rehouse if not through child abuse.

Leliana never had that problem. She chose her life-style because she was in love with that woman Marjorlaine (sp?)

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

Oh, the double standards. Leliana is as much a product of her environment as Zev. In fact, it is a very important theme of each companion in the party. Each companion is shaped by their pasts. What I see between the two in dispute here is one is trying to reform, the other is quite proud of his ability to sneak up and stab someone in the back. And if I'm biased toward Leliana, maybe, I don't know, it has something to do with the fact that Zev TRIED TO KILL ME! First impressions and all that. And then later, assuming I don't kiss his butt, he tries it again. And let me just say, if they were both male characters or their genders were reversed, I would retain the same attitude.

Leliana was raised by a noble woman, was she not?  She had choices.  She fell in love with a woman who led her into the bard life -- she chose to be a spy who used seduction and when that didn't work, torture and murder.  Zevran was raised to be an assassin -- first a ****house boy until 7, then assassin training, including being tortured, where all but the strongest died.

And he actually did not try to kill you -- he tried to kill himself.  And you don't have to kiss his butt in order to get his approval high enough for him to fight with you (though if he's being romanced, he MAY leave the fight, but may not, if his approval is between +27 and +70; however, he does not fight with Taliesen).  Give him his gifts and talk to him once, and don't be rude, and that's it.

You're the one with a double standard here.  I'm not seeing people hating on Leliana.  Understanding HER backstory is not the same as hating on her -- it's accepting that yes, she's another flawed character.  As they all are.

[Helios969]

Perhaps I simply didn't select the proper dialogue options. All I remember is fairly far into our dialogues him talking about the pleasure he received as his blade sunk into his victims. That pretty much ended it for me. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Our experiences were much different, perhaps it's gender-related, I really don't know. And I don't hold it against anybody whose opinion differs from my own. It makes the discussion interesting. It would be boring if we all agreed about everything.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Helios969 wrote...

Oh, the double standards. Leliana is as much a product of her environment as Zev. In fact, it is a very important theme of each companion in the party. Each companion is shaped by their pasts. What I see between the two in dispute here is one is trying to reform, the other is quite proud of his ability to sneak up and stab someone in the back. And if I'm biased toward Leliana, maybe, I don't know, it has something to do with the fact that Zev TRIED TO KILL ME! First impressions and all that. And then later, assuming I don't kiss his butt, he tries it again. And let me just say, if they were both male characters or their genders were reversed, I would retain the same attitude.

 

Leliana CHOSE her path. She was not raised to be a bard, nor was she forced to. She was not bought as a child and raised in "bard school". It was a choice. One that later caused her much grief. But to learn all this, you have to talk to leliana. In otherwords, get to know her. Most of the other companiobns had no choice in their lives; Zevran, Alistair, Wynne, were all forced as children into their individual situations, they were forced to become what they were. leliana was not.

if you did the same with Zevran, you would find out many things that might puzzle your first impressions. And you would find out the reason for his attempted assassination.

I myself, don't care much for leliana. I don't hate her or strongly dislike her. And it had nothing to do with her being bi. In one playthrough, I pursued her as a female love interest, to see what it would be like, and what sort of person she was, and could become. Personally, I'd rather have had Morrigan, or Ser Cauthrien, as a F/F love interest. leliana just wasn't very appealing.

Furthermore, you don't have to kiss Zevran's ass to keep him from betraying you, unless, of course, you consider talking to him or treating him as a person "kissing ass" All you have to be is civilized and treat him as you would another party member. Gifts too. It's not that difficult, and Zevran, as far as approval on in game choices, is pretty much the least judgemental party member you have.

I find that Zevran and leliana are opposites in many ways. On the surface, Zevran seems to be an oversexed, ammoral cold blood killer with no conscience, but after you probe him further, you find the opposite it true, and much to his own sorrow, he is not as heartless as he should be. leliana comes off as miss religous purity and sweetness, but after probing her further, you find she was a master manipulator who actually enjoyed the "game" and toying with people's hearts and emotions to get what she wanted.

The danger zevran poses is pretty upfront and easy to discern. leliana you don't realize until it's too late.

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Phoenix Swordsinger wrote...

Zevran I found one of the easiest to gain loyalty from. Even just as friends. Actually I find Wynne the hardest. By Landsmeet I always have everyone at 100, except Wynne who is in high 90's.
Leliana will turn on you? How does THAT happen?

I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that if you desecrate the "Sacred Ashes" she will.

Yes, if she's in the party, she will try to kill you for it (it's not prevention, as the deed is done when she turns).  And it doesn't matter what her approval is.  

It just occurred to me (sorry if I'm a bit slow,) but if you desecrate the Ashes, how do you save the Arl?

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

Perhaps I simply didn't select the proper dialogue options. All I remember is fairly far into our dialogues him talking about the pleasure he received as his blade sunk into his victims. That pretty much ended it for me. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Our experiences were much different, perhaps it's gender-related, I really don't know. And I don't hold it against anybody whose opinion differs from my own. It makes the discussion interesting. It would be boring if we all agreed about everything.

heh, that is the first or second conversation you can have with him -- again, he changes, but not immediately.  You hear about his regrets later -- big surprise that he's not spilling his guts at the beginning. But you have to get through that conversation and have his approval above "neutral" in order to start hearing more.

Why does it not bother you when Leliana talks about how much she enjoyed hunting down men?  Or when she tells Alistair that the men she seduced could never report her because she killed them?  I'm sure you never heard her telling Zevran she enjoyed the hunt.

Zevran, if you get to know him, will express FAR more regrets than Leliana ever will. One of the conversations, admittedly, you'll only hear while romancing him, but there are several others where he will admit to having deep regrets.  He had no choice, you need to keep that in mind.  It was be an assassin or die -- and you can find that out at the very beginning if you're not just going for maximum approval or being rude.  

Edit: Skadi just wrote a fabulous post that should be read by any Zevran hater.  More articulate than my ramblings for sure.

And you take a pinch of ashes no matter what.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 février 2010 - 06:16 .

[Sabriana]

If you stopped talking to him after that conversation, then it's no wonder he never got his approval up. That is one of the very first conversations he has available. And my PC disagrees with him. Oh, she agrees that some people need killing, she finds that Howe and his murderous minions definitely need killing in the worst way (HNF warrior). However she tells him that she takes no pleasure in killing. Other than that, she is polite and civil, and still ends up with a +4.

You have to get beyond that conversation. He is only trying to convince himself, not you. He can't just make a complete flip within a short time after leaving his old life. To tell you that he hated what he was doing would make his whole life a lie. He's not ready yet. Geesh, the guy is just now starting on his new path, be a bit patient, at least as patient as you are with Sten and Morrigan.

Sten slaughtered a whole family, and Morrigan, led into it by her mother, had a hand in killing many templars. It was even a 'sport'

I mean, do you really think that Leliana had given up her bard-life and her lover if she hadn't been more or less forced to do that? I think not. Her conversion to 'goodness' was more or less forced on her. Zevran wants to change his life out of his free will. Heck, the guy had a good life as an assassin, a better life than 98 % of the City Elves would ever have.

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...

If you stopped talking to him after that conversation, then it's no wonder he never got his approval up. That is one of the very first conversations he has available.

I don't know, in that playthrough his approval was 98 by the end - and he didn't betray me.  Again I think we just have to accept the fact that we disagree.  But that's okay.

[sami jo]

The comments in the Gauntlet during the Ashes quest are very revealing. Leliana is not quite what she seems, or maybe wants to be. Similarly, if you take Zev with you for that quest and see his prison in the fade during the Circle quest, you'll find that he is not the heartless lech he would like to portray. He deflects questions with lecherous comments the same way Allistair does with stupid jokes, Oghren does with lecherous comments and alcohol, Shale does by calling everyone "it", Wynne does by playing stern mother, Sten does by glaring and Morrigan does by being a right b****. In other words, every one of the NPCs is more than a bit broken and all of them try to keep your character at arm's length unless you really invest in getting to know them. Zev is probably the most difficult to get to know; but if you do it, whether as a friend or as a love interest, he is fiercely loyal and tender.



I really do think that much of the reaction to his character is the visceral reaction some have to a "queen". Oghren is just as inappropriate, Morrigan and Sten outright disapprove (and Sten will challenge you) if you are too nice, and Leliana doesn't have an issue with her past as a bard, she was deeply hurt by Marjolane betraying her. Zev is the NPC that is capable of changing the most through the game.

[Jolly Jenkins]

Sabriana wrote...

Actually, he doesn't try to kill the PC. But you only find that out later, if you give him the time of day. And no, you don't have to cater to him to get high enough approval. And no again, he's not really all that proud, but the player won't find that out unless they at least talk to him.
He tries to explain why he likes being an assassin because that's all he knows. That's what he's been bought and bred for through physical, psychological and sexual abuse and torture. Yes, sexual abuse. How else would a 7 year old boy learn a massage technique fit for a wh*rehouse if not through child abuse.
Leliana never had that problem. She chose her life-style because she was in love with that woman Marjorlaine (sp?)

Actually, he does really try to kill you. I lost that fight the first time. My character got on his knees, begged for mercy, looked Zevran right in the eyes, and then got his throat sliced.

[ejoslin]

Jolly Jenkins wrote...


Actually, he does really try to kill you. I lost that fight the first time. My character got on his knees, begged for mercy, looked Zevran right in the eyes, and then got his throat sliced.

Hmmm, spoken like someone who really knows the ins and outs of the Zevran backstory.  Ok.  I'm convinced.  Thanks!

[Cuddlezarro]

iv lost the fight before and iv never got such a cutscene just a game overscreen



and the whole ambush was a glorified suicide attempt thats why he took the job in the first place because he honestly didnt expect to win

[ejoslin]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

iv lost the fight before and iv never got such a cutscene just a game overscreen

and the whole ambush was a glorified suicide attempt thats why he took the job in the first place because he honestly didnt expect to win

Hahaha, more than didn't expect to win, set himself up to lose.  Anyone who starts an ambush with, "Help, we're being attacked! Please, come save us!" really is not trying to use the element of surprise.  The only thing that does surprise me about that whole thing is he found people dumb enough to think that would work.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 février 2010 - 07:04 .