48 réponses à ce sujet

[intrepidemise]

Dex1701 wrote...

If they didn't level scale the enemies the player would be forced to approach the various areas of the game in a set order, and then everyone would whine about not having freedom to do things in the order they want to, and you'd need a walkthrough or a lot of trial-and-error to even figure out what that order was.

There would be a lot of trying things out, realizing you're not strong enough, and planning to come back later.  This is fun to a point, but not if you have to approach the entire game that way.  Honestly, I think people would hate that more than the level scaling.

I don't think the scaling in DA:O is too bad. It would be nice to see some encounters tethered to some kind of random range to add some variety, though.  If you want to see an example of truly idiotic level scaling look no further than vanilla Oblivion. .

Honestly, if it comes down to open-ended gameplay WITH level-scaling or linear gameplay without, I'll take linear every day of the week. I prefer real-time combat and I don't think I should be expected to drop the difficulty slider to "easy" (read: cheap) in order to do so. I agree Oblivion was bad re: level scaling, which is why I hated it until it was made more manageable (though not necessarily "fun") with the mods that attempted to turn it off.

[intrepidemise]

Modifié par intrepidemise, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:18 .

[intrepidemise]

Serenity84 wrote...

There is a limit to level scaling.

At the end you have no trouble with ogres unless maybe you're fighting two lieutenants at once. While the one in the Tower of Ishal is a huge challenge. Normal darkspawn at the end are level 10 and can be killed in one hit

This just means you have to grind somewhere until your character level is higher than the cap, yet even the tedium of grinding is made worse, as every fight is scaled to be a "challenge". Explain how that's fun, please.

[Darpaek]

FFS They all stand next to eachother on a platform. Fireball them. Sleep>WN and they'll kill themselves for you. VWB and all you have to do is kill one and they're all dead.



I play with the Dex hotfix, too

[Jonfon_ire]

I'm a bit puzzled why they didn't do Encounter scaling instead of level scaling. So instead of things just levelling up with you, which is off-putting when you get savaged by some bandits after kicking a Revenants ass, you get a bunch of different, more powerful enemies, or more of them.



I mean being savaged by a load of wolves 8 levels after you first encountered them (and beat them easily) just feels weird. Couldn't they have been scaled up to Dire Wolves or some other suitable beastie instead?

[T1l]

intrepidemise wrote...

This just means you have to grind somewhere until your character level is higher than the cap, yet even the tedium of grinding is made worse, as every fight is scaled to be a "challenge". Explain how that's fun, please.

I would ask you to explain "grinding" in Dragon Age, as it's literally impossible to do. I don't think there is any area anywhere in the game with respawning, farmable mobs. So, without "grinding", essentially you're just "playing the game".

[Loc'n'lol]

Scattershot should never have made into the hands of the AI (except bosses). That's it.

It's ok when one character in your party can use it. When there's half a dozen enemies using it against you, it's just... stupid. Non friendly fire, area of effect damage + stun allowing no save ? Yeah, sure, why not...



And then, to add insult to injury, most of the melee thugs get momentum. And suddenly you realize how much it is broken when it is used against you...



Of course with a primal mage you can get through without a problem no matter what, because you can just disable AND kill the enemy with a couple of spells.

[intrepidemise]

T1l wrote...

intrepidemise wrote...

This just means you have to grind somewhere until your character level is higher than the cap, yet even the tedium of grinding is made worse, as every fight is scaled to be a "challenge". Explain how that's fun, please.

I would ask you to explain "grinding" in Dragon Age, as it's literally impossible to do. I don't think there is any area anywhere in the game with respawning, farmable mobs. So, without "grinding", essentially you're just "playing the game".

I didn't mean for my point to get lost, and apparently it did. That WAS my point. There is no place to "grind" up your character in order for him to become more powerful in order to go back to an area where he just got his butt kicked and actually prevail. That, and the traditional "this area is full of weaker creatures, this area is full of somewhat stronger creatures, and their level is set and has nothing to do with your level" approach to RPG gameplay are predictable, sure, but they WORK.

For me, RPGs are supposed to be focused on story, character development, and exploration of an new and interesting, yet somewhat familiar world. If I wanted to have a non-stop, strategy-focused fight, I'd play an RTS! So far, the story, graphics/sound, and interesting characters are the only things keeping me playing this game, but it's getting harder and harder to do that as the fights get more and more tedious and lack significant reward.

[Surberus]

A lack of lvl scaling results in 2 things

1) Lack of freedom, you cant go where ever, when ever, as some areas will have mobs way over your head

2) Grinding - didnt hit the right lvl before entering a new area, well, head back to a lower zone to catch up!



Lvl scaling makes perfect sense, it just isn't always implemented well.

[Fishy]

That why i play on Easy . problem Solved.

[Jsmith0730]

Surberus wrote...

A lack of lvl scaling results in 2 things
1) Lack of freedom, you cant go where ever, when ever, as some areas will have mobs way over your head
2) Grinding - didnt hit the right lvl before entering a new area, well, head back to a lower zone to catch up!

Lvl scaling makes perfect sense, it just isn't always implemented well.

the first one isn't so bad, really. As a matter of fact, I remember back in Oblivion I went out of my way to mod my game to do that.

As long as there are enough places to level at your current level though, 'cos yeah the second one is lame.

Though to be fair, Oblivion's level-scaling was a huge example of failure all around.

[telephasic]

I think the main problem is that big groups of white enemies are always more difficult than a single boss. Hell, fighting 15 whites is harder than a boss and two lieutenants. There are a lot of reasons for this, but basically single-target stun spells like petrify, glyph of paralysis, crushing prison, and force field, are way, way easier to position than crowd control spells, and they disable enemies for a whole lot longer.

[Taleroth]

The Golems are still tougher than those thugs. It takes two golems to challenge the party. It takes a dozen thugs.

[3nfan7]

You speak as if they are the only one scaling instead of you and your party.

The more you grow the more you gain Crowd Control spell,AreaDamage (not to talk about spell AE spell combo),resilient gear, Traps,Bombs etcetera...

Don't pretend to select all the party and then right click one by one 15 thugs hoping that the other one won't hurt you a lot.DA:O it's not like this

[Valentin the II]

Agreed with the OP.

Making a side-quest involving street thugs the toughest battle in the game (I'm not kidding here, the Arch Demon was easier than this) is just a stupid design decision.

[boardnfool86]

Denerim is actually a minimum level 10 like ozammar so you shouldn't do it first... but yes it sucks if you are a level 19 when you run into the thugs... and kind of dumb... the random wolf encounter and the denerim thugs are so tough its silly... I think all other encounters make sense tho

[Malal Belakor]

people have to learn how to put talent points on characters, and to use the ability
in the mid alley, at a certain point, i was ONLY with Morrigan against 5 or 6 thugs and with no potions (i used all with a ravenant 1 minute before), and i beat them

[Inakhia]

I'm still not sure how the Denerim back alleys can be that difficult. I hit them with my rogue main, Alistair tanking and either Lel or Zev and Wynne healing. I did make suer I was over level 10 I think, probably closer to 14ish, but they weren't that difficult. Rushing headlong into those ambushes will make things hard I imagine, but sending 1 char out to take a peak/sneak/scout and leaving the others in a relatively defensible place makes them all quite manageable. If you take your entire party and tramp headlong into any fight its going to be tough and degenerate into a massive furball. Thinking and using a little foresight and strategy renders most fights very doable.

....And wolves...seriously wolves are hard? Again stop with the headlong charge, send the tank in and if anyone get overwhelmed, stun the mob off them! Use AoE stuns to stun *them* ect...

[SageRoll]

Surberus wrote...

A lack of lvl scaling results in 2 things
1) Lack of freedom, you cant go where ever, when ever, as some areas will have mobs way over your head
2) Grinding - didnt hit the right lvl before entering a new area, well, head back to a lower zone to catch up!

Lvl scaling makes perfect sense, it just isn't always implemented well.

I do not agree. Have you ever played BG or BG2 ? Those were truly brilliant RPGs exempt of level scaling, and yes, you had a world map and plenty of freedom for the course of action at some key points of the adventure. That's more than enough IMO.

In that scheme it was possible to choose an area/quest that would be too hard for your current party. But then there was always an option to get around and come back later, or a possibility to avoid the hardest battles (e.g. most (if not all ?) dragon battles can be avoided through conversation in BG2).

As for "grinding", it should always be a choice to some extend in an RPG. Just a choice you can make or not, to level more before trying more challenging areas. On the other hand "grinding" is kinda hard without random encounter (and very boring with random encounter). If you wanted to "grind" XP in BG you just had to do all the easiest quests first.
But then again, you have the CHOICE.

I didn't know at first that there was level scaling in DA:O. I became suspicious when it took me a crazy sequence of single-target spells to kill a wolf that I could kill in two hits in early game, with less than half the spell power my main has now.

This thread smells like a big fat troll but... I also have that good old impression of having a team that does not improve... I mean, the fact that most battles are challenging was nice at first, but it became quite boring (mostly same strategies over and over again, and some seem to LOOSE effectiveness the more you level up).

[Jeffonl1]

Bioware used a limited system of scaling in Origins - a good link with an explanation:

http://dragonage.gul...allenge_scaling

[Kernel Cinders]

I enjoy DA:O a lot because of the tactics involved. If it was just another "hack 'n slash" type RPG I would have been bored. Mindless killing = zero challenge. If a specific fight is kicking your butt repeatedly, then rethink your strategy. Don't be afraid to try something that you think won't work. You'd be surprised.

This game requires the ability to think and plan ahead, not only when developing the characters, but how to use different strategies for different enemy types. If all you're doing is putting stat points for DPS and none in CON, then yeah, you're going to get your butt handed to you a LOT, even if you have a ton of poultices. It's all about balance, which is why scaling is in the game to begin with.

My 2cp!

Modifié par Kernel Cinders, 19 septembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[SageRoll]

Talking about tactic, I find DA so very shallow in that domain...

Imagine yourself facing a "red" boss. For some reason it has something like 4 or 5 times your hit points and is very resistant to stuff like hexes. Moreover, you can try to mana clash him but it'll "only" take something like 1/4 of its HP (1/2 if he's a weak one And that's still huge damage).

After that, it still magically seems to have an infinity of mana left anyway.

So you still need to bash through 400-500 HP with attacks, sells that do about 40 (I'm level 12) or a little bit more with spellbloom. So what's the tactic ? Trying to stun/freeze/knock down/petrify the boss all the time, and throw all you have at it.

I don't call that a "tactic"...

I understand the mechanisms had to be adapated for being nice to play on a console, but take a look again at BG, BG2 and even the NWN franchise, you had a huge difference in tactical potential.

I'm not even talking about basic gamemechanics that allowed very customized multiclass character, but just how you plan your fighting in these games. You actually have to plan some boss fights ahead by carefully, you can't tell youself "meh, I still have a lot of stun/freeze/petrify/knockdown potential in my party, no planning necessary (the fight just takes ages)".

Mass fights are a "little" more tactic but in the end just a matter of combining the same AOE spells over and over again. Actually, do you even use your warriors/rogues in mass fights if not to defend to ranged/mages "in cas of emergency" ?

Modifié par SageRoll, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:58 .

[RobotNixon]

T3RMIN8T0R X wrote...
I have never played an RPG where wolves were not a beginner level nuissance more than anything else.

The Elder Scrolls III: Bloodmoon

[SageRoll]

I also forgot to mention something about my spellcasting boss : his tactis aren't even good. Bosses don' use spell combos or very powerfull spells (occasionnaly a crusing prison...).

It means that all the protection against spells stuff, nobody uses it. There are games where you absolutely HAVE to use those in some fights, or have an army of summons to take on the higher level spells for you, or some berserked warrior that become immune to some effecs or what not.

I think of some crazy battles in BG2 where mages throw stuff like imprisonment at your little guys. There's no escaping that spell unless you have spell protection, 100% magic resistance or an uncommon special ability like berzerk active. It's pretty much an instant"kill" spell.

Modifié par SageRoll, 19 septembre 2010 - 09:14 .